RIP: Comair

rainsux

Line Up and Wait
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rainsux
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I just saw a news report that Delta is shutting down it's Comair subsidiary, saying that the 50-seat RJs are not profitable.
 
It's not the aircraft type that is the cause, just the symptom. Mis-managing an airline is the cause.
 
The economics of the 50-seat fleet are poor. Many operators are parking
them. More will be parked.

Then there is the matter of labor relations ... Lack of. Comair rules, crews,
mgt and joint cooperation have been not-good for a long time. Not the
least bit surprised that DL has decided to harvest the more profitable stuff
from Comair while burdening it with the less worthy stuff ... to justify
shutting it down.

Also allows mgt to tell their other captive RJs and contract RJs to "go
along, to get along - or else."

I remember Comair fondly. IIRC, they started at CVG, flying Navajos. I've
got a few acquaintances there, both mgt and union. Sigh.

My last Comair flight was out of JFK. Always a cesspool; but that trip set
a new low for both Comair & JFK:

- The TSA worker solicited a bribe to move me to the head of the line.
- A gate agent solicited a bribe to to put me on the standby list.
- The gate agents (plural) conspired to screw the crew by posting the
flight as delayed. Once they walked across the aisle to the coffee stand,
it was reposted as on-time, then immediately changed to "No crew." I
told'm where their crew was ... but she snarled. Heck, I could see them.
- I retrieved the crew ... who promptly shifted the delay to, "Cabin not
cleaned - without ever visiting the aircraft. That led to the cleaning crew
lead swearing at the pilots/FA in front of the pax.
- The flight crew then decided a tire was low. Again; without ever
performing a walk-around.
- The FAs got joined in, claiming the catering was wrong; without ever
having visited the aircraft.

NOT a healthy business culture.
 
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And such is fulfillment in the life cycle of a regional airline.
.
 
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Pilot shortage?


Hahhahhahhahaha

1400 employees hunting for jobs. Not sure how many pilots they had out of that 1400.

But I was thinking the same thing. A lot of young pilots applying to places just did another facepalm.
 
visited with an american eagle pilot last night. sounds like there will be plenty of openings in the next few years for those willing to do the job. he said they had dropped minimums down to 250 hrs last year just to fill the seats.
 
visited with an american eagle pilot last night. sounds like there will be plenty of openings in the next few years for those willing to do the job. he said they had dropped minimums down to 250 hrs last year just to fill the seats.

With the new mandated ATP minimum and 1,500 hours, they can advertise lower mins all they want, but they can't use them.
 
The economics of the 50-seat fleet are poor. Many operators are parking
them. More will be parked.

Then there is the matter of labor relations ... Lack of. Comair rules, crews,
mgt and joint cooperation have been not-good for a long time. Not the
least bit surprised that DL has decided to harvest the more profitable stuff
from Comair while burdening it with the less worthy stuff ... to justify
shutting it down.

Also allows mgt to tell their other captive RJs and contract RJs to "go
along, to get along - or else."

I remember Comair fondly. IIRC, they started at CVG, flying Navajos. I've
got a few acquaintances there, both mgt and union. Sigh.

My last Comair flight was out of JFK. Always a cesspool; but that trip set
a new low for both Comair & JFK:

- The TSA worker solicited a bribe to move me to the head of the line.
- A gate agent solicited a bribe to to put me on the standby list.
- The gate agents (plural) conspired to screw the crew by posting the
flight as delayed. Once they walked across the aisle to the coffee stand,
it was reposted as on-time, then immediately changed to "No crew." I
told'm where their crew was ... but she snarled. Heck, I could see them.
- I retrieved the crew ... who promptly shifted the delay to, "Cabin not
cleaned - without ever visiting the aircraft. That led to the cleaning crew
lead swearing at the pilots/FA in front of the pax.
- The flight crew then decided a tire was low. Again; without ever
performing a walk-around.
- The FAs got joined in, claiming the catering was wrong; without ever
having visited the aircraft.

NOT a healthy business culture.

Started at CVG with two Chieftains, lost one to a take off engine failure and survived that, but not the changing airline world
 
Such is the product of a place where people pay to go to work.

What does this mean exactly? I've heard this sentiment expressed elsewhere and as a student pilot I'm not sure I get it. Are the pilots at this regional paying the airline to train in their jets? And are other regionals doing the opposite, paying the pilots to train in their jets, thus making this regional a hunk of junk? Are there viable alternatives to paying to learn to fly this type of aircraft other than the military? I also see the link made then that pilots willing to pay to learn to fly or build experience are creating a crappier environment for pilots generally in the industry, driving down salaries, benefits and what not. Is that true? Is it fair to put down pilots who have no other option to build time but pay someone to fly their jets? Seems like that shows some true commitment or, conversely, that they're getting suckered if other options are in fact available. I honestly don't know the answer, not meant to be a leading question.

All I know is I'm paying to learn to fly a C172 and I don't know any other way, but I'm also not trying to do this professionally. Anyways some clarity would be great.
 
> What does this mean exactly?

Comair opened their own flight school, charging students. Upon successful
completion, they promised a job INTERVIEW, not a job. i.e. Spend big bucks
to possibly land a job/salary that will qualify for food stamps.

I believe that there have been a few regionals (starts with a 'G' ?), where
the body in the right seat, was buying the seat, not being paid to occupy
the seat.
 
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> What does this mean exactly?

Comair opened their own flight school, charging students. Upon successful
completion, they promised a job INTERVIEW, not a job.

I believe that there have been a few regionals (starts with a 'G' ?), where the body
in the right seat, was paying for the seat.
I believe that there were more than a few regionals who did this, especially back in the early to mid 1990s.
 
I believe that there were more than a few regionals who did this, especially back in the early to mid 1990s.

Yup... there's still one doing it in the glossy ads in AOPA I believe. Very common back then... pay us more than we really deserve, and we'll guarantee you (and a few hundred others) an interview with our attached little airline.

Been a scam for decades.
 
Yup... there's still one doing it in the glossy ads in AOPA I believe. Very common back then... pay us more than we really deserve, and we'll guarantee you (and a few hundred others) an interview with our attached little airline.

Been a scam for decades.
That was one of the many reasons I stuck with mapping and didn't try for the airlines back then. I was making far more flying a Cessna 206. Of course there were probably minuses as well as plusses to this strategy...
 
That was one of the many reasons I stuck with mapping and didn't try for the airlines back then. I was making far more flying a Cessna 206. Of course there were probably minuses as well as plusses to this strategy...

Seems to have worked out for ya! :)
 
What does this mean exactly? I've heard this sentiment expressed elsewhere and as a student pilot I'm not sure I get it.

Companies that charge people for their jobs are considered reprehensible in aviation; for those who have been to certain places such as Gulfstream, being blacklisted is a real possibility.

It's one thing to go get a job, compete with everyone else, and be picked for the job after being considered the best applicant for the job.

It's entirely a different matter for someone to take a job because their sole qualification to be there was that they paid the employer. The concept of employment, of course, is to give a service to the employer, for which one gets paid. One works, one gets paid. Very simple.

In aviation, some companies cater to the curtain-climbing gotta-have-it-now crowd who try to buy their way into a career. Continental Express, for example, only hired applicants for many years who would pay for their training. Were the applicants there because they were the best ones for the job, or simply because they were the only ones willing to shell out fifteen to thirty thousand dollars to get a job that paid them thirteen grand a year?

The justification is that they were getting their foot in the door. In reality they were paying out to the company more than the company was paying them to work. They were paying for the privilege to work. You'll see the ads in magazines; pay us thirty thousand dollars and get two hundred fifty hours in your logbook of genuine Part 121 airline turbine time, and the possibility of actually having permanent employment thereafter.

This is defecating in one's bed. The same people who do this, lowering the bar for the industry, are the first to cry and complain as their career eventually takes off, about low industry wages. The truth is, these people are the ones who lowered the bar for everyone and poisoned the business.

Comair wasn't much different; spoiled kids who shelled out money to hop in an airline seat; train in house, jump in the airplane, make dirt wages, and call yourself a shining star. Two hundred fifty hour wonders who couldn't find the door with both hands.

Those same two hundred fifty hour wonders years later still haven't ever been exposed to real experience; they decided to pay to run without ever learning to walk or crawl.

Someone shows up with their experience with Comair, it's a quick way to flush the resume. I'd much rather see an applicant who's been vetted, tried and tested, and who's worked for a number of employers. An employee who's competed for his job, been found worthy of hire time and time again, that's the one to look to...not the one who bought his job and did nothing else.
 
Someone shows up with their experience with Comair, it's a quick way to flush the resume. I'd much rather see an applicant who's been vetted, tried and tested, and who's worked for a number of employers. An employee who's competed for his job, been found worthy of hire time and time again, that's the one to look to...not the one who bought his job and did nothing else.

That's pretty reasonable considering that there's zero competition once IN, so it kinda makes sense with human nature that the only thing left for folks in the industry to want, is to see competition BEFORE hire.

Once in, you ARE your seniority number... at least at the airlines... and hope for no furloughs or the company dying or merging with someone else. If you can pass checkrides you're set unless a business change occurs.

In your line of work, things are slightly different. As you said, multiple employers, good record, etc...
 
Companies that charge people for their jobs are considered reprehensible in aviation; for those who have been to certain places such as Gulfstream, being blacklisted is a real possibility.

It's one thing to go get a job, compete with everyone else, and be picked for the job after being considered the best applicant for the job.

It's entirely a different matter for someone to take a job because their sole qualification to be there was that they paid the employer. The concept of employment, of course, is to give a service to the employer, for which one gets paid. One works, one gets paid. Very simple.

In aviation, some companies cater to the curtain-climbing gotta-have-it-now crowd who try to buy their way into a career. Continental Express, for example, only hired applicants for many years who would pay for their training. Were the applicants there because they were the best ones for the job, or simply because they were the only ones willing to shell out fifteen to thirty thousand dollars to get a job that paid them thirteen grand a year?

The justification is that they were getting their foot in the door. In reality they were paying out to the company more than the company was paying them to work. They were paying for the privilege to work. You'll see the ads in magazines; pay us thirty thousand dollars and get two hundred fifty hours in your logbook of genuine Part 121 airline turbine time, and the possibility of actually having permanent employment thereafter.

This is defecating in one's bed. The same people who do this, lowering the bar for the industry, are the first to cry and complain as their career eventually takes off, about low industry wages. The truth is, these people are the ones who lowered the bar for everyone and poisoned the business.

Comair wasn't much different; spoiled kids who shelled out money to hop in an airline seat; train in house, jump in the airplane, make dirt wages, and call yourself a shining star. Two hundred fifty hour wonders who couldn't find the door with both hands.

Those same two hundred fifty hour wonders years later still haven't ever been exposed to real experience; they decided to pay to run without ever learning to walk or crawl.

Someone shows up with their experience with Comair, it's a quick way to flush the resume. I'd much rather see an applicant who's been vetted, tried and tested, and who's worked for a number of employers. An employee who's competed for his job, been found worthy of hire time and time again, that's the one to look to...not the one who bought his job and did nothing else.

Thanks, that's the kind of answer I was hoping for. I find it hard to believe that there are places like this still in operation. If that's the case, the alleged pilot shortage is a joke. Sounds to me like these companies are the canaries in the coal mine: as long as they're still in business, there ain't no pilot shortage.
 
No matter how poorly mis-managed a company is, it is always sad to see anyone loose their job....except for maybe the executives in charge of the mess ;). I remember when Comair used to do a ton of flying out of CVG.
 
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