Right of Way in Jump Zones

AdamZ

AdamZ

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Adam Zucker
Another post on POA regarding a jump plane pilot acting badly got me wondering. We have all been taught the right of way rules ie a glider has the right of way over a powered aircraft etc. What are the rules with regard to jump planes, I'm not talking about the jumpers under canopy once they have jumped but rather the jump plane.

We have a few jump operations in our area and any weekend with reasonable Wx will bring the call on CTAF one minute to jumpers one minute to jumpers and then the "jumpers away call"

What if some pilot in a slower SEP such as say a C 120 is just about to enter or has just entered the jump zone prior to the release of jumpers? Is he required to then circle or exit and wait until the meat missiles are on the ground? Or, can the pilot call back advising the jump plane that they are entering the jump zone and to hold jumpers? Does the jump plane pilot have authority to tell the 120 pilot to remain clear of the jump zone? Jump zones aren't even on the charts other than the depiction that skydiving occurs at that airport so not sure how one would even be able to advise they are "clear" of the jump zone.
 
Neither side is required to yield other than the general FAA prohibitions:

105.5

No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a parachute operation to be conducted from an aircraft, if that operation creates a hazard to air traffic or to persons or property on the surface.
​
105.23

No person may conduct a parachute operation, and no pilot in command of an aircraft may allow a parachute operation to be conducted from that aircraft, over or onto any airport unless-
(c) A parachutist may drift over that airport with a fully deployed and properly functioning parachute if the parachutist is at least 2,000 feet above that airport's traffic pattern, and avoids creating a hazard to air traffic or to persons and property on the ground.​

91.13

(a) Aircraft operations for the purpose of air navigation. No person may operate an aircraft in a careless or reckless manner so as to endanger the life or property of another.

(b) Aircraft operations other than for the purpose of air navigation. No person may operate an aircraft, other than for the purpose of air navigation, on any part of the surface of an airport used by aircraft for air commerce (including areas used by those aircraft for receiving or discharging persons or cargo), in a careless or reckless manner so as to endanger the life or property of another.
​
91.15

No pilot in command of a civil aircraft may allow any object to be dropped from that aircraft in flight that creates a hazard to persons or property. However, this section does not prohibit the dropping of any object if reasonable precautions are taken to avoid injury or damage to persons or property.​

91.111

(a) No person may operate an aircraft so close to another aircraft as to create a collision hazard.​

91.113


(b) General. When weather conditions permit, regardless of whether an operation is conducted under instrument flight rules or visual flight rules, vigilance shall be maintained by each person operating an aircraft so as to see and avoid other aircraft. When a rule of this section gives another aircraft the right-of-way, the pilot shall give way to that aircraft and may not pass over, under, or ahead of it unless well clear.
​

That is, generally, jump planes will scan for other aircraft and usually get radar services and not drop divers on conflicting traffic. Other traffic typically avoid the jump area during jumps. The questions is what altitude is your 120 in your hypothetical at? If he's down at pattern altitude enroute to the jump zone airport, typically you can see the guys under canopy and they're operating outside the traffic pattern. If you're up at 6000' I'd avoid flying under the jump planes. Meatbombs are hard to spot.
 
FlyingRon, doesn't the aircraft on approach to landing (i.e., NOT the jump plane) have the right of way?
 
It's a mutual responsibility. If you're flying along through or heading for an airport with a jump zone, you should monitor ATC or the CTAF for the calls. If you hear the 3-minute and 1-minute calls on CTAF or ATC freq, you should not enter the jump zone. If you're in it, you should respond appropriately so the jump pilot knows not to let them go until you're clear. Polite, courteous interchange on the radio is good for everyone in situations like this.

With no radio, it's a bit harder. You are responsible for knowing what's on the charts and in the publications and NOTAMs regarding parachute jumping, and for avoiding those operations. If you've done your homework, you should know when those zones are active, and it would behoove you to avoid them at those times. If you're landing there during those times, scanning the sky before entering the area would be appropriate. Keep in mind that in the last recorded airplane-jumper fatal mid-air (over CT some years ago), the jumper survived but the occupants of the plane did not (ripped off much of the horizontal stab and the plane went out of control).

Jump pilots can help with this by not allowing themselves to be pushed into dropping through broken layers where they can't see if there are planes below and the jumpers will not have the required cloud clearance as they pass through the layer, and by scanning carefully for traffic below, especially on high altitude drops. ATC is usually very good about warning them when there are radar targets below them, but knowing the limits of radar coverage in that area is important. Another thing jump pilots can do is make sure their calls are clear, rather than rattling them off so fast nobody can hear them, or using nonstandard phraseologies.

BTW, my Garmin Aera 510 puts a little yellow dashed circle around published jump zones, which is a nice reminder.
 
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If only it worked that way. I have been flying at airports where skydive activity exists, and it seems like they kind of do what ever they see fit.
 
I will probably get creamed but here it goes. If a jump plane announces its intentions, and you know its intentions what is the big deal to give them berth while waiting until the jumpers are on the ground. My guess is we are talking all of maybe 15 minutes. It seems to me in plane versus jumper collisions the potential is everyone loses. Is the 15 minutes of poking holes in the sky not worth it?

Doug
 
douglas393 said:
I will probably get creamed but here it goes. If a jump plane announces its intentions, and you know its intentions what is the big deal to give them berth while waiting until the jumpers are on the ground. My guess is we are talking all of maybe 15 minutes.
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Far less than that from "jumpers away" to "all jumpers on deck," even on a jump from 14,000 or so. So I'm with you -- if you hear the calls, just stay out until you hear "jumpers on deck." If you're already in when you hear it, communicate with the jump pilot so nobody gets hurt.
 
A couple of things, since I fly jumpers from time to time.

The first thing is that I'm required to be in contact with Lincoln Approach even though I'm dropping into a non-controlled airport outside their class C. Since there is only one functional COM radio this creates some challenges. I have to give LNK approach a 1 minute to jumpers away call and a jumpers away call. I do swap frequencies after I tell LNK approach and I repeat the same thing on CTAF but :
1.) I haven't been listening to CTAF prior to that so I don't really know who is down there.
2.) I'm looking for aircraft the entire time and I'm pretty good at seeing them

I then immediately switch back to LNK approach so there is no time that I'm monitoring after I announce my intentions. If someone thinks they're going to negotiate with me about my 1 minute to jumpers away it'll fall on deaf ears because I'm not listening after I say it. I'm too busy dealing with LNK Approach on another frequency and communicating with the sky divers and making corrections for them on the jump run.

We kick the jumpers out directly over-top the airport. Keep in midn that jumpers don't cover a lot of area it's a pretty isolated chunk of sky that they're falling in. If someone is in a normal traffic pattern they'll almost always be inside of you, at least at this airport.

At my drop zone the jumpers decide when they're going to jump. It's their ass and believe me they're looking for airplanes and don't want to hit one either. They scan the sky and go and they'll be on the ground in no time. So it's just not that likely they're going to jump into another airplane.

I am pretty familiar with their operation so I have no issue flying into the airport when they're jumping. I always scan teh sky and if they just kicked jumpers out I widen my pattern a bit and keep an eye out. My pattern almost never conflicts as long as I"m not trying to do a midfield crosswind when they're under canopy in the pattern.

Also keep in mind that most sane jumpers are going to be under canopy at about 3,000 AGL..and they're quite visible. You can see and avoid easily by the time they are at traffic pattern altitudes.

The larger concern is a cross country Bonanza pilot on auto-pilot reading his newspaper and sipping his coffee that has the airport programmed as a waypoint and is cruising at 7,000 AGL. If he's not talking to ATC and we don't spot him he isn't going to know that there are going to be 4 human bombs at 120 mph zipping by him.
 
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jesse said:
A couple of things, since I fly jumpers from time to time.

The first thing is that I'm required to be in contact with Lincoln Approach even though I'm dropping into a non-controlled airport outside their class C. Since there is only one functional COM radio this creates some challenges. I have to give LNK approach a 1 minute to jumpers away call and a jumpers away call. I do swap frequencies after I tell LNK approach and I repeat the same thing on CTAF but :
1.) I haven't been listening to CTAF prior to that so I don't really know who is down there.
2.) I'm looking for aircraft the entire time and I'm pretty good at seeing them

I then immediately switch back to LNK approach so there is no time that I'm monitoring after I announce my intentions. If someone thinks they're going to negotiate with me about my 1 minute to jumpers away it'll fall on deaf ears because I'm not listening after I say it. I'm too busy dealing with LNK Approach on another frequency and communicating with the sky divers and making corrections for them on the jump run.

We kick the jumpers out directly over-top the airport. Keep in midn that jumpers don't cover a lot of area it's a pretty isolated chunk of sky that they're falling in. If someone is in a normal traffic pattern they'll almost always be inside of you, at least at this airport.

At my drop zone the jumpers decide when they're going to jump. It's their ass and believe me they're looking for airplanes and don't want to hit one either. They scan the sky and go and they'll be on the ground in no time. So it's just not that likely they're going to jump into another airplane.

I am pretty familiar with their operation so I have no issue flying into the airport when they're jumping. I always scan teh sky and if they just kicked jumpers out I widen my pattern a bit and keep an eye out. My pattern almost never conflicts as long as I"m not trying to do a midfield crosswind when they're under canopy in the pattern.

Also keep in mind that most sane jumpers are going to be under canopy at about 3,000 AGL..and they're quite visible. You can see and avoid easily by the time they are at traffic pattern altitudes.

The larger concern is a cross country Bonanza pilot on auto-pilot reading his newspaper and sipping his coffee that has the airport programmed as a waypoint and is cruising at 7,000 AGL. If he's not talking to ATC and we don't spot him he isn't going to know that there are going to be 4 human bombs at 120 mph zipping by him.
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Interesting perspective. Thanks.

My son jumps(well only twice). He ahs been trying for years to get me to jump. Accuses me of being chicken. I am an old AF doctor and though I get preliminary jump training while doing some air force stuff(had to have it when they took us up in a transport and then a training jet) have never truly jumped. His birthday is next month so I am going to jump with him for his birthday. Hopefully, I will not regret it. Still gotta a problem of jumping out of a perfectly functional and flying plane.

Doug
 
I've never heard of a jump zone announcing jumpers on deck. Free fall only lasts at most a minute and once under canopy the meat bombs are easier to see and avoid.

I have heard jump planes and ATC negotiating when there is conflicting traffic in the vicinity.
 
flyingron said:
I've never heard of a jump zone announcing jumpers on deck. Free fall only lasts at most a minute and once under canopy the meat bombs are easier to see and avoid.

I have heard jump planes and ATC negotiating when there is conflicting traffic in the vicinity.
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Busy dz with se eral airplanes flying at once pretty much always have canopies in the air. Jumpers on deck mean itis dark or raining.
 
To answer the question directly, legally, both planes are powered airplanes not under emergency conditions so the right of way is based on the typical "Yield right" rules.

That said - I always yielded to the jump planes just because I figured they were tasked getting up, dropping load, getting down, and aren't likely to yield right of way anyway.
 
jesse said:
A couple of things, since I fly jumpers from time to time.



The larger concern is a cross country Bonanza pilot on auto-pilot reading his newspaper and sipping his coffee that has the airport programmed as a waypoint and is cruising at 7,000 AGL. If he's not talking to ATC and we don't spot him he isn't going to know that there are going to be 4 human bombs at 120 mph zipping by him.
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Yeahbut. What if the guy does these X-Cs all the time, and is talking to ATC, and is professional. But just this one time ATC doesn't advise. Then the "meat bombs" become a real threat.

I don't like that, and neither do the bombs who, obviously, can see but not avoid.
 
spiderweb said:
Yeahbut. What if the guy does these X-Cs all the time, and is talking to ATC, and is professional. But just this one time ATC doesn't advise. Then the "meat bombs" become a real threat.

I don't like that, and neither do the bombs who, obviously, can see but not avoid.
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Well if there is a parachute by the airport on the sectional then one should be using some caution.
 
I've done some work at a turbine DZ.

Here is the deal, it's 99% probably NOTAMed, so you know you are flying into parachute activity area, the guy flying the jumpers is going to most likely only make one call on CTAF and thats the "one minute to jump" call, no jumpers on the deck call.

Depending on the radios they will have two coms, one on ATC the other on company freq, if they are able they will also monitor CTAF, but not likely.

Most jumps are going to be 13k and below, about 5 minutes until they are on the ground, most tandems will pull at 5k.

If you hear the call, just stay the heck out of the way, ask the jump ship how you can get in safely if possible, though realize your call may come at a time when they are diving that million dollar plus turbine aircraft with a windshield full of earth and may not have time to accommodate you.

Again, let me reiterate, you are flying into a NOTAMed parachute area, common sense would say you might want to try to accommodate.
 
SkyHog said:
To answer the question directly, legally, both planes are powered airplanes not under emergency conditions so the right of way is based on the typical "Yield right" rules.
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Actually, "Yield right" only applies to aircraft converging other than head on (or nearly so). Unlike the rules of nautical navigation, there's an overriding rule in to see-and-avoid. There's no "stand on" vessel.
 
Sorry, there is no earthly reason for a jump plane to violate the FARS or cause a collision hazard on it's own. Yes, I know there are a lot of turd jump plane operators who think they own the airspace, but most of the ops around here do NOT own the airport they're jumping on, so they need to look for traffic at the field. In fact, I fly through and into several airports with drop zones around here and have not found that to be the case. Sure, they are dropping like a rock back onto the deck, but they usually aren't too blind to others.

The bigger issue is the meat bombs not yet under canopy, but as pointed out, they typically only freefall for a minute or so, so avoid the area above 4000 for a minute or two after the jumpers away call.
 
I have the fix:

"Jumpers away, any traffic please advise."
:)
 
flyingron said:
Sorry, there is no earthly reason for a jump plane to violate the FARS or cause a collision hazard on it's own. Yes, I know there are a lot of turd jump plane operators who think they own the airspace, but most of the ops around here do NOT own the airport they're jumping on, so they need to look for traffic at the field. In fact, I fly through and into several airports with drop zones around here and have not found that to be the case. Sure, they are dropping like a rock back onto the deck, but they usually aren't too blind to others.

The bigger issue is the meat bombs not yet under canopy, but as pointed out, they typically only freefall for a minute or so, so avoid the area above 4000 for a minute or two after the jumpers away call.
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How far is far enough awy. I was flying today, and was about 10 miles from the airport where they were jumping, and they held off jumping because I was too close. Even though my path was not going to bring me any closer to them it was not going to bring any farther either in a short period of time, so I turned away from them and my destination and a minute later they announced they were jumping. It was a windy day, 30 knots at 3000 feet, but I would think that 10 miles away would be far enough.

Doug
 
douglas393 said:
How far is far enough awy. I was flying today, and was about 10 miles from the airport where they were jumping, and they held off jumping because I was too close. Even though my path was not going to bring me any closer to them it was not going to bring any farther either in a short period of time, so I turned away from them and my destination and a minute later they announced they were jumping. It was a windy day, 30 knots at 3000 feet, but I would think that 10 miles away would be far enough.

Doug
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It is plenty far away.
 
NineThreeKilo said:
Again, let me reiterate, you are flying into a NOTAMed parachute area, common sense would say you might want to try to accommodate.
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While you're right, and I use the procedures you describe when anywhere near a DZ, the zones themselves are NOTAMed, not whether they are in use.

For instance, KWVI has two zones. There is only one operator, so only one can be used at a time. But they are both NOTAMed every day. They can be challenging to dodge when you're trying to get north. The bigger danger is overflights, but most of us know to stay to the mountain-side of the airport when crossing nearby.
 
douglas393 said:
How far is far enough awy. I was flying today, and was about 10 miles from the airport where they were jumping, and they held off jumping because I was too close. Even though my path was not going to bring me any closer to them it was not going to bring any farther either in a short period of time, so I turned away from them and my destination and a minute later they announced they were jumping. It was a windy day, 30 knots at 3000 feet, but I would think that 10 miles away would be far enough.

Doug
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You have no idea how many times I've heard some 172 call out "5 miles to the north....uh..I mean south" When I see them its more like 2 miles to the east! :goofy:

Sometimes I take those calls with a grain on salt
 
AdamZ said:
...Jump zones aren't even on the charts other than the depiction that skydiving occurs at that airport so not sure how one would even be able to advise they are "clear" of the jump zone.
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The symbol is the jump zone location in relation to the airport and, as far as I know, jump zones do not interfere with regular traffic patterns. The greater danger is from transiting traffic that is not even using that airport - someone following a magenta line on a fifteen thousand dollar Garmin that hasn't looked at a sectional chart in the last four or five years.
 
At least with the Garmin, their position report distance is usually accurate if they're on the right screen. ;)

Direction maybe too, if they know how to figure out a reciprocal heading.
 
JeffDG said:
Sometimes?
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You mean like the guy I saw last weekend at WVI "turning base" in front of me, more than two miles from the field?

I told him I'd follow, and later reported "very wide left base for 20" for the two other guys on downwind behind me.

Or the guy "on downwind" ahead of me, 500 feet above pattern altitude?
 
Maybe I can shed a little light on this topic...

While this is a couple months old thread I figured I would add my 2 cents to this forum to possibly help add some perspective to this discussion from the meat missile's side of the coin...

Let me first start out by stating a few obvious points...

  • No not all dropzones work the same way. Yes there are some idiot (#$@%) jump pilots but most of them are actually really good and helpful.
  • The larger turbine based DZs will but dropping skydivers on a more regular basis during the day than the smaller Cessna DZs.
  • Typical Cessna DZs only go to 10,500 AGL (climb time could be 25-35 min), turbine DZs will usually go from 12K-14K AGL (climb time can be as short at 8min to about 20 min depending on the aircraft)
  • Technically jumpers are VFR.
Ok so a little background on me so you don't think I have just done a couple tandems and think I know what I'm talking about. I am an Accelerated Free Fall instructor (the way we teach people to skydive) and I am a tandem instructor. I have 698 skydives. I am also a private pilot with 160 hrs of flight time. If you are wondering I work at Skydive Atlanta based at OPN in Thomaston GA. (btw if you look at a current VFR sectional there is not a parachute symbol, and yes we have been working with the FAA for a long time to get one on the chart).



Skydiving operations first: I am going to speak in terms of our DZ although most of this can be inferred taking into account some of the things I stated earlier. Jump operations are announced ahead of time with usually a 2 min call "skydiving over Thomaston in 2 min" and a "jumpers in the air over Thomaston 14K' and below" when we exit. We teach and are taught to spot the airport (landing zone), clear of clouds, and traffic. We can not see all aircraft but experienced skydivers know roughly where an aircraft should be if they are in the pattern or entering into it. We routinely call out any traffic we might see (even if it is not a conflict) to all jumpers in the airplane and our pilot will call out to us a rough position of any aircraft that might have been making radio calls in the area. during the freefall I would like to say we are still looking for traffic but honestly we're not typically. most formations will break between 4K'-6K' to gain separation to open out parachutes. That is the time we start looking again for traffic (other skydivers and aircraft). Just as a reference typical free fall has us passing 1000' of altitude every 5.5 seconds. from break to opening usually will be maybe 8 seconds max. FAA requires us to be open by 2000' AGL but most will be open from 2500-5000'.



Ok WHERE are we falling?.... our spots are all dependent on the winds up to 15K' if you know the winds you can quickly guess where we are. We will always be upwind. There is some drift in freefall but majority of our spot will be for the winds at 5K' and below since our drift under canopy is much greater.



Skydivers are taught to get over their landing area and fly a pattern just like pilots do. our pattern entry altitude is typically 1000' AGL and it is very close in to our landing area, WAY INSIDE the pattern you would be flying at the same altitudes. We also have established procedures for an altitude NOT to cross a runway below (500' or 1000' is typical). Skydivers are taught to stay away from the runway at these altitudes assuming aircraft operations WILL be continuing.


Flying operations: ok my advice if I were flying around a dropzone. Skydiving operations are generally set up to allow flight ops to continue even while skydiving is going on if we work together.

  1. most importantly..... Never ever overfly mid-field while skydiving is going on (yes I have seen it during freefall). I don't really care if it is a "normal procedure" that you like to do, you will be playing Russian roulette.
  2. pay attention to the local frequency, the jump aircraft is required to announce jumpers in the air. As stated earlier 90% of jump operations will also be talking to the ATC facility covering the area so they might not be on the frequency the entire time.
  3. announce your position and intentions (like we're supposed to do anyway)
  4. fly an established pattern, if you are nervous then widen your pattern a little bit. I would suggest to stay outside the airport area until you are in a position to properly enter a downwind leg (preferably on a 45 degree entry)
  5. If the jump pilot is on the frequency and not slammed at the moment they typically would be willing to give you a quick reference of how far they have off set their jump run from the runway "jump run offset .5mi to the north"
As stated before, you are welcome to stay outside the area until canopies are on the ground, but at a real busy DZ you are going to get frustrated. Our field happens to also have some of the cheapest 100LL in the area so we have a steady stream of pilots landing to gas up. Most have gotten to know us and have no issues operating together. BTW I don't think I have ever heard a radio call for all the canopies are on the ground... most turbine aircraft are back on the ground and shutdown before the last tandems land.

We're all aviators, and skydivers love to talk as much if not more than pilots.... if you land at an airport that has a skydiving operation, by all means come over and say hi. If you have questions about how your local DZ handle their air operations ask them, most likely you'll end up with a nice conversation with the pilot and/or owner and have a much better understanding how they expect the skydivers to operate.

This post is getting long so I'll stop here. I will happily answer any questions I can. I hope this has helped someone.

Andy White
 
Adam,

I just reread your original post and realized I didn't answer some of your basic questions. Jump pilots can not tell you to stay away any more than you can tell them to not put jumpers out until you are on the ground. and again from my earlier post neither thing needs to be done. I will state this though regarding turbine jump aircraft (Otters, Caravans, and especially King Airs). once the last jumper is out a good jump pilot is getting that aircraft back on the ground quickly. They will dive the aircraft (sometimes along with the last jumpers for a little bit which makes for a great photo) and then execute what is basically a diving pattern. Think entering a downwind leg at approx 10K', base at 4K, final at 1.5K (these are estimates but you get the idea). Also that means the plane will be FAST until turning final. I think our King Air turns final at about 160 as he is slowing.

I say that to state, there are times when jumpers are away and the plane dives. A typical cessna/piper/whatever is near the beginning of the downwind leg. Our aircraft will typically go in front of that aircraft and there will not be a conflict even though the pilot in the pattern usually thinks it will be closer. At our DZ at least our pilots try to be courteous and are talking to the other pilots in the pattern. Many times in that scenario I described our aircraft is actually shut down and the pilot is getting out of the aircraft before the other aircraft lands.

And to be more specific about the amount of time that skydivers are in the air I'll explain a tandem skydive that would be the longest time for a skydive in the air. #1 tandems are the last ones out of the plane typically. We fall with a drogue chute that actually is pretty visible when the sun hits it. we are supposed to initiate a deployment around 6K' that should put us under canopy by 5K' (remember skydivers will always be referencing AGL ;) ). that freefall will be 45 sec to 1 min. from 5K I'm looking at 5-6 min max under canopy assuming I'm not trying to get the canopy down. so from Exit to on the ground is at max 7 min.

Andy
 
Right of way always goes to the person with the least options in maneuverability, in this case it would be the meat bomb, not that it much matters since if you hit them or vice versa, it's pretty likely everybody dies. At 127mph my 155lbs will remove your wing or whatever.
 
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spiderweb said:
Yeahbut. What if the guy does these X-Cs all the time, and is talking to ATC, and is professional. But just this one time ATC doesn't advise. Then the "meat bombs" become a real threat.

I don't like that, and neither do the bombs who, obviously, can see but not avoid.
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I agree that this is the most scary part for us, we expect to see aircraft near pattern altitude near the dropzone, but the enroute ones are the possibility that scares us the most.

With that said though, IF I see the aircraft below me as I'm falling, I can do things to avoid them. Most notably turn to a heading that will deconflict and track away from the potential impact. In a well established track we can get up to 60 mph of forward speed. Had to do just that in PA last June at the end of a student jump. (long story but lets just say aircraft crossed over midfield at approx 3K' AGL spotted him by 7K (20 sec to impact), pulled student at 5.5K, both instructors turned perpendicular to he flight path and opened by 4K.
 
If you're a smart sky diver jumping in a heavily trafficked area you'll be lighting off a smoke flare on your way out the door.
 
I see alot of skydiving around Deland, FL so here's my take on the issues.

Hitting a skydiver is bad. It's hard on the paint. It may leave scratches or marks. Dents are a problem too. Worse case, it may damage the plane to the point of an emergency landing. BTW, it may kill someone. I just fly around the area, instead of through it. It's a big sky.

In these parts, approach control does a good job of letting one know that there's funny stuff going on. The jump pilots do a good job of making announcements including jumpers on the deck.
 
The scary ones is being in the soup around Southport or Orange and shooting an approach (the RNAV 4 has the IAF directly on top of the Orange airport) and hearing jumpers away announcements.

.
 
I like to stay clear of jump airports altogether. Most of the jump pilots I've seen are simply a hazard to the public.

Their appalling record here in the NorthWest bears that out.
 
vfsit said:
I agree that this is the most scary part for us, we expect to see aircraft near pattern altitude near the dropzone, but the enroute ones are the possibility that scares us the most.

With that said though, IF I see the aircraft below me as I'm falling, I can do things to avoid them. Most notably turn to a heading that will deconflict and track away from the potential impact. In a well established track we can get up to 60 mph of forward speed. Had to do just that in PA last June at the end of a student jump. (long story but lets just say aircraft crossed over midfield at approx 3K' AGL spotted him by 7K (20 sec to impact), pulled student at 5.5K, both instructors turned perpendicular to he flight path and opened by 4K.
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I almost exclusively fly IFR. Sometimes jumps are announced, but I wonder how often they are not. There is no way I am going to monitor the frequencies of every airport which might have jumpers, enroute. I have one radio on the current controller, and the other on 121.5.

I appreciate the long explanation, but it doesn't do anything to make an enroute IFR pilot feel better.
 
spiderweb said:
I appreciate the long explanation, but it doesn't do anything to make an enroute IFR pilot feel better.
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I completely understand, I obviously can not speak for anything away from my area, but I can tell you that the 4 dropzones around the Atlanta area are all talking to Atlanta Center for their operations. We're all too close to the class Bravo not to be. Those guys are great about calling out traffic to us and making sure the enroute IFR guys like yourself are properly notified.

Andy
 
vfsit said:
I completely understand, I obviously can not speak for anything away from my area, but I can tell you that the 4 dropzones around the Atlanta area are all talking to Atlanta Center for their operations. We're all too close to the class Bravo not to be. Those guys are great about calling out traffic to us and making sure the enroute IFR guys like yourself are properly notified.

Andy
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That's good. I hope that this is true in general across the U.S.!
 
spiderweb said:
I almost exclusively fly IFR. Sometimes jumps are announced, but I wonder how often they are not. There is no way I am going to monitor the frequencies of every airport which might have jumpers, enroute. I have one radio on the current controller, and the other on 121.5.

I appreciate the long explanation, but it doesn't do anything to make an enroute IFR pilot feel better.
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There aren't going to be any jumpers in IMC conditions. The fact that you are on an IFR flight does not relieve you of the responsibility of looking out the window when you are in VFR conditions. Your IFR clearance doesn't mean that you are clear of anyone out there operating VFR.
 
Silvaire said:
There aren't going to be any jumpers in IMC conditions. The fact that you are on an IFR flight does not relieve you of the responsibility of looking out the window when you are in VFR conditions. Your IFR clearance doesn't mean that you are clear of anyone out there operating VFR.
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Certainly. The problem, of course, is the closure rate with what amounts to a small speck descending rapidly (unlike an airplane) with little warning.
 
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