Right decision, wrong reason

[Ken Ibold]

Yesterday I had to go from Orlando to Jacksonville to look at a house we're thinking of buying. It's 105 nm from ORL to CRG, so that's an hour and a few minutes by Citabria. Including preflight and routing around Sanford and other airplane fudge time, figure 1:30. Drive time is 2:00. I had a hard need-to-be-back time of 2:30 p.m.

I called for weather and CRG was reporting 1000 broken and 4000 broken with a slow-moving cold front to the northwest. For the whole route, there was the usual summertime forecast of 20 percent chance of isolated thunderstorms in the afternoon. As I was talking to the briefer, he interrupted and said, "Oh, Jax just issued a special report. 700 and a half mile." End of story, as the Citabria is not IFR equipped. I called to have the airplane put away, and I just kept driving. When I got to Jax, it was cloudless and beautiful. I was second-guessing myself for not flying, since the ceiling had been forecast to lift right around the time I expected to get there.

So I looked at the house (we'll put an offer in today) and got in the car to drive home. All the time I was thinking about what a beautiful day it was for flying. Then I hit a line of storms that quickly killed any regret that I was on the ground instead of the air. Turns out, the storms extended 75 miles directly across the path I would have been flying and included hail, high winds that overturned airplanes on the ground, and one report of a tornado.

Ah, the summertime flying season is here. Time to put a stormscope in the Citabria ...

 

[Len Lanetti]

Ken,

I had something similar happen to me on a trip with Karen & her dad. I landed at Wilmington DE instead of going on to Brandywine (where Karen's car was parked...this was before we were married). We rented a car and drove. I kept questioning if I had made the right move up until we ran into a traffic jam where a series of small tornados and tossed a bunch of trees and houses on to the road.

Hey, I thought you moved to Wisconsin!?

Len

 

[Ken Ibold]

Hey, I thought you moved to Wisconsin!?

Nope. When it came down to it I just couldn't give up Florida. So last October I quit my job at EAA and they said "No, don't quit. Work from home!" So that's what I've been doing. The HR people have since decided to make me a contractor rather than an employee, and they decided they want a warm body up there (although my boss could care less). But let's just say Scott is being verrrrry picky about hiring someone, since the remote thing is working just fine for all concerned.

 

[AdamZ]

Good Decision Ken, Trust your gut! I'm sure Len will confirm the weather here in the North East sounds somewhat similar. We are caught between two stalled Low pressure systems. It looks like it will be that way for another week. The scary part is it can be gray with ceilings under 1000' then open up to bright sunshine but with in an hour its raining winds are up and ceilings are down to 800' Its hard not to let the sunshine tempt you.

 

[grattonja]

Good Decision Ken, Trust your gut! I'm sure Len will confirm the weather here in the North East sounds somewhat similar. We are caught between two stalled Low pressure systems. It looks like it will be that way for another week. The scary part is it can be gray with ceilings under 1000' then open up to bright sunshine but with in an hour its raining winds are up and ceilings are down to 800' Its hard not to let the sunshine tempt you.

That northeast weather is leaving me very frustrated this week, in fact. I am going up to Vermont Friday. Looking at the last two days weather, nets pireps for rime ice at the 5-8K altitudes. Yuck. I hate ice. Almost as much as the skyhawk hates it.

This spring has been some really weird weather in the NE.

Jim G

 

[BillG]

I'm ready to slit my wrists here in MA, but I can't get to them through all the layers of clothes and jackets I'm wearing! Argh! Glad I got the Tiger home last week, but now I can't use it!

 

[Len Lanetti]

"No, don't quit. Work from home!"

Ken,

That's great! I'm sure the family appreciates it as well.

Here's hoping for your continued success.

Len

 

[poadeleted3]

Good Decision Ken, Trust your gut! I'm sure Len will confirm the weather here in the North East sounds somewhat similar. We are caught between two stalled Low pressure systems. It looks like it will be that way for another week. The scary part is it can be gray with ceilings under 1000' then open up to bright sunshine but with in an hour its raining winds are up and ceilings are down to 800' Its hard not to let the sunshine tempt you.

The weather here bites butt zits. Sean and I are supposed to be up in a 152 even as I type this. I'm trying to get him back on the horse, and I could stand to shoot a couple landings. Weather reports all the way up until next Thursday are pretty much the same garbage we are seeing right now.

 

[Toby]

That northeast weather is leaving me very frustrated this week, in fact. I am going up to Vermont Friday. Looking at the last two days weather, nets pireps for rime ice at the 5-8K altitudes. Yuck. I hate ice. Almost as much as the skyhawk hates it.

This spring has been some really weird weather in the NE.

Jim G

It is FREEZING here. I had the heat on full blast in my car and am sitting in my office in my fleece jacket, with the space heater on. The winds are howling outside.

Yesterday it was brilliantly sunny with patches of dark, thick, fluffy clouds rolling through, until it rained. Unstable air. We set a tied low at Islip, 42 degrees, last happened in 1992.

No flying today, of course, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Friday and Saturday.

 

[Ken Ibold]

It is FREEZING here. I had the heat on full blast in my car and am sitting in my office in my fleece jacket, with the space heater on. The winds are howling outside.

85 and sunny here. A little humid, but the pool is looking mighty inviting!

 

[Toby]

85 and sunny here. A little humid, but the pool is looking mighty inviting!

Gee, thanks, Ken!

 

[rpadula]

Good call, Ken.

I was watching all that stuff yesterday as I was planning a quick trip to ORL today. Those meanines sure did pop up quick and I don't think they were forecast.

Well, I'm still here in GA. Will try to make it tomorrow. Do you prefer Showalter or the other FBO? I'm literally going to stay for about an hour to catch up with my best pal from WPHS before he goes off to study in China for 1.5 years! Then I have to be back here for a 4PM conference call.

Gonna have to make him bring some donuts or something.


-Rich

 

[Ken Ibold]

Do you prefer Showalter or the other FBO? I'm literally going to stay for about an hour to catch up with my best pal from WPHS before he goes off to study in China for 1.5 years

They're both about the same. A lot of the locals prefer Showalter because it's a family business, while Orlando Jet Center is owned by Sheltair. To me, they're both overpriced urban airport FBOs. Showalter, on the north side of the field, is closer to restaurants, if that matters.

 

[Henning]

I called for weather and CRG was reporting 1000 broken and 4000 broken with a slow-moving cold front to the northwest. For the whole route, there was the usual summertime forecast of 20 percent chance of isolated thunderstorms in the afternoon. As I was talking to the briefer, he interrupted and said, "Oh, Jax just issued a special report. 700 and a half mile." End of story, as the Citabria is not IFR equipped. I called to have the airplane put away, and I just kept driving. When I got to Jax, it was cloudless and beautiful. I was second-guessing myself for not flying, since the ceiling had been forecast to lift right around the time I expected to get there.

So I looked at the house (we'll put an offer in today) and got in the car to drive home. All the time I was thinking about what a beautiful day it was for flying. Then I hit a line of storms that quickly killed any regret that I was on the ground instead of the air. Turns out, the storms extended 75 miles directly across the path I would have been flying and included hail, high winds that overturned airplanes on the ground, and one report of a tornado.

Ah, the summertime flying season is here. Time to put a stormscope in the Citabria ...

Not to say there is anything wrong with the decision you made, but I would have gone. This is just to show my thinking on trips like this. I often have to fly VFR ONLY and have "Have to get there". Flying under you can typically watch the clouds and the rain squalls. Usually the vis underneath is pretty good unless you happen to be in a shower, and that's what I suspect was happening at JAX during the briefing. I can pretty much watch the bottoms of the clouds and pick my way through staying up wind of any Green/Dark cells (hail). Peronally I prefer being VFR underneath thunderstorms than IMC in them especially without radar. If worse comes to worse I can always back track to a nearby field, preferably with a hangar and wait it out there till the front passes over. Usually don't wait out more than 45 minutes and usually I'll top off fuel while I'm there.

 

[grattonja]

Not to say there is anything wrong with the decision you made, but I would have gone. This is just to show my thinking on trips like this. I often have to fly VFR ONLY and have "Have to get there". Flying under you can typically watch the clouds and the rain squalls. Usually the vis underneath is pretty good unless you happen to be in a shower, and that's what I suspect was happening at JAX during the briefing. I can pretty much watch the bottoms of the clouds and pick my way through staying up wind of any Green/Dark cells (hail). Peronally I prefer being VFR underneath thunderstorms than IMC in them especially without radar. If worse comes to worse I can always back track to a nearby field, preferably with a hangar and wait it out there till the front passes over. Usually don't wait out more than 45 minutes and usually I'll top off fuel while I'm there.

Many of us aspire to your level of experience and knowledge in the weather. I know I do. I still find myself making the conservative calls, and being disappointed with the outcome. One needs to get in there to get experience, but we also need to live long enough to get that experience. As you know, it can be a real catch 22.

Jim G

 

[grattonja]

It is FREEZING here. I had the heat on full blast in my car and am sitting in my office in my fleece jacket, with the space heater on. The winds are howling outside.

Yesterday it was brilliantly sunny with patches of dark, thick, fluffy clouds rolling through, until it rained. Unstable air. We set a tied low at Islip, 42 degrees, last happened in 1992.

No flying today, of course, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Friday and Saturday.

I'm with you on Friday and Saturday. We would like to go S37-RUT VFR, so Janet can get hood time and X-C. Of course, IFR means I get some time in the clouds, which is good also

Right now, the AOPA prog charts suggest that one front may be through and another not yet here on Friday. But, again, the 48 hour guess rule applies. At least, today anyway, the airmets for Ice were high enough to be not a major factor, and the pireps did not show much sign of ice.

Crossed fingers indeed.

Jim G

 

[Ken Ibold]

Not to say there is anything wrong with the decision you made, but I would have gone. This is just to show my thinking on trips like this. I often have to fly VFR ONLY and have "Have to get there". Flying under you can typically watch the clouds and the rain squalls. Usually the vis underneath is pretty good unless you happen to be in a shower, and that's what I suspect was happening at JAX during the briefing. I can pretty much watch the bottoms of the clouds and pick my way through staying up wind of any Green/Dark cells (hail). Peronally I prefer being VFR underneath thunderstorms than IMC in them especially without radar. If worse comes to worse I can always back track to a nearby field, preferably with a hangar and wait it out there till the front passes over. Usually don't wait out more than 45 minutes and usually I'll top off fuel while I'm there.

I might have been tempted had it not been for two factors. One is that the fly time vs drive time was very close as it was. Factor in a weather diversion, and driving was shorter. The other was my hard had-to-be-home time. If I'd missed that, my kids would have been hauled away from school by DFCS. Wait, maybe that wouldn't have been such a bad thing ....

 

[rpadula]

They're both about the same. A lot of the locals prefer Showalter because it's a family business, while Orlando Jet Center is owned by Sheltair. To me, they're both overpriced urban airport FBOs. Showalter, on the north side of the field, is closer to restaurants, if that matters.

Thanks Ken. I'll give Showalter a try. I know I'll take it in the wallet either way. Say hello if you're around. I expect to be there between 9-9:30 until 11.


-Rich

 

[Henning]

I might have been tempted had it not been for two factors. One is that the fly time vs drive time was very close as it was. Factor in a weather diversion, and driving was shorter. The other was my hard had-to-be-home time. If I'd missed that, my kids would have been hauled away from school by DFCS. Wait, maybe that wouldn't have been such a bad thing ....

Like I said, not questioning your judgement, which is the only one that matters, just showing my line of thinking.

 

[Henning]

Many of us aspire to your level of experience and knowledge in the weather. I know I do. I still find myself making the conservative calls, and being disappointed with the outcome. One needs to get in there to get experience, but we also need to live long enough to get that experience. As you know, it can be a real catch 22.

Jim G

It really is a Catch-22 situation. As the phrase goes "Experience is knowledge you gain after you really needed it" or something like that. Most of the time you get weather experience because some one is saying "Then what the heck am I paying you for? It needs to be done." So you go and explore the envelope. Being comfortable close to the ground helps. Keeping low traffic farm roads within landing reach is a good habit as well. Many recreational pilots set high minimums for flying in, and there's nothing particularly wrong with that, but I think everyone should go out and fly on MVFR days so they can get a feel for it. Everything looks and feels different, and everyone should be at least somewhat comfortable if not relaxed flying in it. No matter what the weather briefing said, there is a chance you will end up in the crap on every flight you take. Granted while 20 years flying and at sea have taught me how to read clouds and weather and where I am are relatively safe or not, it did not take 20 years to learn it. The trick is you have to live it to learn it which means you do need to get up in it, even if it's just a quick local hop. BTW, rain is not synonymous with IMC, you can be VMC in rain.

 

[grattonja]

It really is a Catch-22 situation. As the phrase goes "Experience is knowledge you gain after you really needed it" or something like that. Most of the time you get weather experience because some one is saying "Then what the heck am I paying you for? It needs to be done." So you go and explore the envelope. Being comfortable close to the ground helps. Keeping low traffic farm roads within landing reach is a good habit as well. Many recreational pilots set high minimums for flying in, and there's nothing particularly wrong with that, but I think everyone should go out and fly on MVFR days so they can get a feel for it. Everything looks and feels different, and everyone should be at least somewhat comfortable if not relaxed flying in it. No matter what the weather briefing said, there is a chance you will end up in the crap on every flight you take. Granted while 20 years flying and at sea have taught me how to read clouds and weather and where I am are relatively safe or not, it did not take 20 years to learn it. The trick is you have to live it to learn it which means you do need to get up in it, even if it's just a quick local hop. BTW, rain is not synonymous with IMC, you can be VMC in rain.

I appreciate your thoughts. I do have some IMC experience, as well as some MVFR. Hell, it's the east coast, 5 miles is good VFR and 3 is ok as well. I just know that I need more time up in the clouds. Particularly, I personally need to get more weather experience, learning where ice is and how not to get in it. Ditto thunderboomers.

Never been afraid to get the plane a free wash. Fortunately, my CFI while getting my IR humored me and we did as many approaches in actual that we could arrange. My long IR XC was about half IFR, with an approach at RIC down pretty close to minimums.

But, I do envy you your professional flying experience. That is a good way to get experience, having to freight dog in all weather, or spray crops. For me, these are not options at this time. I just hope that I can get up to the level of experience that some of the people on this board have. Thanks for the advice.

Jim G

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

I appreciate your thoughts. I do have some IMC experience, as well as some MVFR. Hell, it's the east coast, 5 miles is good VFR and 3 is ok as well. I just know that I need more time up in the clouds. Particularly, I personally need to get more weather experience, learning where ice is and how not to get in it. Ditto thunderboomers.

Never been afraid to get the plane a free wash. Fortunately, my CFI while getting my IR humored me and we did as many approaches in actual that we could arrange. My long IR XC was about half IFR, with an approach at RIC down pretty close to minimums.

But, I do envy you your professional flying experience. That is a good way to get experience, having to freight dog in all weather, or spray crops. For me, these are not options at this time. I just hope that I can get up to the level of experience that some of the people on this board have. Thanks for the advice.

Jim G

Nobody, pro or amateur/private pilot ever has to fly in MVFR, for anybody.

The Air Safety Foundation, last I knew, continues to agree with me in recommending that pilots train in MVFR with a qualfied CFI. Even after that though, should something untoward happen to you & your aircraft in MVFR then you, or your remains, will be most likely roasted by the ubiquitous Monday morning quarterbacks, both pilots and non-pilots alike.

 

[Toby]

Hell, it's the east coast, 5 miles is good VFR and 3 is ok as well.

And sometimes they call it 10, but they lie. You get up there, look out over the water, like I did the other day, and wonder where the horizon went. Welcome to summer!

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

And sometimes they call it 10, but they lie. You get up there, look out over the water, like I did the other day, and wonder where the horizon went. Welcome to summer!

Same over here on west coast.
The FAR minmums for ceilings cloud clearances & vis are about where they should be for competent pilots.

 

[grattonja]

Nobody, pro or amateur/private pilot ever has to fly in MVFR, for anybody.

The Air Safety Foundation, last I knew, continues to agree with me in recommending that pilots train in MVFR with a qualfied CFI. Even after that though, should something untoward happen to you & your aircraft in MVFR then you, or your remains, will be most likely roasted by the ubiquitous Monday morning quarterbacks, both pilots and non-pilots alike.

I live at S37 (boy my wife would agree with that sometimes ). We are a Class E extension of the LNS class Delta. So, much of the IR training that I received involved Special VFR back to S37 in low ceilings and cruddy weather from LNS, CFI on board of course. And, my CFIs have all made sure that I have received time and training when the weather was MVFR. I agree, you had better have some training in those conditions before you set wing in them. Anything else is a recipe for disaster.

Haze is a fact of life. It ain't called "Smoketown" for nothing. So, lower visibility does not concern me much, barring other considerations. Like low clouds, or impending bad weather. Ditto those hard things that pilots try to fly through sometimes. Mountains, I think they are called?

I don't go when it isn't safe. But, if you are unwilling to fly VFR in reduced visibilities, you substantially lower your VFR flying time here, in this part of the US of A anyway.


I use my IR if I am at all uncomfortable. My main thrust in this discussion, for me anyway, is that I need to get time learning how to avoid ice and to learn to read, judge and avoid thunderstorms. In IFR.

Jim G

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

I live at S37 (boy my wife would agree with that sometimes ). We are a Class E extension of the LNS class Delta. So, much of the IR training that I received involved Special VFR back to S37 in low ceilings and cruddy weather from LNS, CFI on board of course. And, my CFIs have all made sure that I have received time and training when the weather was MVFR. I agree, you had better have some training in those conditions before you set wing in them. Anything else is a recipe for disaster.

Haze is a fact of life. It ain't called "Smoketown" for nothing. So, lower visibility does not concern me much, barring other considerations. Like low clouds, or impending bad weather. Ditto those hard things that pilots try to fly through sometimes. Mountains, I think they are called?

I don't go when it isn't safe. But, if you are unwilling to fly VFR in reduced visibilities, you substantially lower your VFR flying time here, in this part of the US of A anyway.


I use my IR if I am at all uncomfortable. My main thrust in this discussion, for me anyway, is that I need to get time learning how to avoid ice and to learn to read, judge and avoid thunderstorms. In IFR.

Jim G

You're rapidly approaching the time (if not all ready) where you WILL be the authority on your weather. But you're in for some wild rides. Have fun with it !

 

[Henning]

Nobody, pro or amateur/private pilot ever has to fly in MVFR, for anybody.

As for amateur/PP, I agree. As for a working pilot prohibited IFR, while technically correct, in practicality, this is not true as you won't keep your job. It's a competetive business, and sometimes it takes you places you don't necessarily like. It's really a close knit community and word gets around if you make too many marginal "No Go" calls. If it's total crap, nobody is gonna bust on ya, but if it's marginal, you're expected to go, that pipeline has a contract to be flown 2 or 3 times a week, We need to get that field fertilized before that line of rain squalls hits.... It's not that they can force you to fly, but next week when another job comes up, they call someone else. It's really a sh*t seat to be in sometimes, but if you want the job it's the seat you get and you you learn or you die.

The Air Safety Foundation, last I knew, continues to agree with me in recommending that pilots train in MVFR with a qualfied CFI.

Well, I have multiple problems with that statement. First, when they figure out how to do that in a single seat aircraft, let me know. Next, where does one find a "qualified CFI" if "Nobody, pro or amateur/private pilot ever has to fly in MVFR, for anybody." You don't get qualified sticking letters behind your name, but by living it, if you never have to fly in it, how do you get experience? I personally think that the training most pilots get is inadequate and too proceedure specific at the cost of learning fundamental flying and decision making. The way landing is taught is a prime example. "Hit the Numbers", yes that is fine, and it will work, but not to maximum performance. Learn to judge and "feel" your rate of sink and speed by visual and aural cues as well. You have to fly and land without an ASI before solo, and you have to spin and recover 2 turns +/- 15* before solo. These are two personal standards that I taught to, and ones I strongly believe should RETURN to our training standards.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

As for amateur/PP, I agree. As for a working pilot prohibited IFR, while technically correct, in practicality, this is not true as you won't keep your job. It's a competetive business, and sometimes it takes you places you don't necessarily like. It's really a close knit community and word gets around if you make too many marginal "No Go" calls. If it's total crap, nobody is gonna bust on ya, but if it's marginal, you're expected to go, that pipeline has a contract to be flown 2 or 3 times a week, We need to get that field fertilized before that line of rain squalls hits.... It's not that they can force you to fly, but next week when another job comes up, they call someone else. It's really a sh*t seat to be in sometimes, but if you want the job it's the seat you get and you you learn or you die.



Well, I have multiple problems with that statement. First, when they figure out how to do that in a single seat aircraft, let me know. Next, where does one find a "qualified CFI" if "Nobody, pro or amateur/private pilot ever has to fly in MVFR, for anybody." You don't get qualified sticking letters behind your name, but by living it, if you never have to fly in it, how do you get experience? I personally think that the training most pilots get is inadequate and too proceedure specific at the cost of learning fundamental flying and decision making. The way landing is taught is a prime example. "Hit the Numbers", yes that is fine, and it will work, but not to maximum performance. Learn to judge and "feel" your rate of sink and speed by visual and aural cues as well. You have to fly and land without an ASI before solo, and you have to spin and recover 2 turns +/- 15* before solo. These are two personal standards that I taught to, and ones I strongly believe should RETURN to our training standards.

Yeah, It always comes down to:

"Is this proposed flight in bad weather really worth my life, job, fishing trip, or whatever." The job still doesn't "make" a pilot go fly in whether weather. But they should be free to play the game as long as they don't want safer but more boring employment.

In a single seat aircraft, it's pretty much a given, the PIC should have some MVFR experience already. Spin recovery training I encourage pilots to get of their own perogative. Partial panel and hood time is easier to get and a given as far as I'm concerned with any students for any rating.

 

[bbchien]

t's not that they can force you to fly, but next week when another job comes up, they call someone else. It's really a sh*t seat to be in sometimes, but if you want the job it's the seat you get and you you learn or you die.

Yup, that's the way it is. As I've pointed out, you really have not learned a whole bunch of stuff ntil you have to fly for utility.

 

[SCCutler]

The weather here bites butt zits...

EEewww!

My inner child just got a severe spanking.

 

[Henning]

It is FREEZING here. I had the heat on full blast in my car and am sitting in my office in my fleece jacket, with the space heater on. The winds are howling outside.

Nice to know, I'll have to call my buddy in Old Westbury and rub it in . When I was up there a couple weeks ago and we managed 12 holes before we were froze off the course. He's 'bout ready to move.

 

[Henning]

Yeah, It always comes down to:

"Is this proposed flight in bad weather really worth my life, job, fishing trip, or whatever." The job still doesn't "make" a pilot go fly in whether weather. But they should be free to play the game as long as they don't want safer but more boring employment.

Well, that is the long and short of it, and 3 bucks an acre is 3 bucks an acre as well. In order for me to make it, they've got to make it... then you get your own contracts and buy or lease your own plane, and now you become the guy that tells yourself "Lets go, got bills to pay". We figured for my buddy to crack the nut on his 502 Air Tractor and business, he had to do 100,000 acres a year. Or you have a pipeline contract and your client calls at 0200 and says "We've got a pressure drop on the XXX toXXX pipe, we need you up there first light", you aren't up there, you lose your contract, and it's paying your mortgage. I know that in the winter, a lot of pipeline inspection would be considered "Scud Running". You just can't cross several states without running into weather.

 

[Toby]

This is a very good thread. Lots to think about.

Jim G., looks like you might be good for Friday.

 

[Bill]

This is a very good thread. Lots to think about.

Concurr, this has developed into a great thread. Someday I hope to aquire at least a thimble full of the knowledge and skills Henning and the others have...

 

[Ed Guthrie]

We are a Class E extension of the LNS class Delta. So, much of the IR training that I received involved Special VFR back to S37 in low ceilings and cruddy weather from LNS, CFI on board of course. And, my CFIs have all made sure that I have received time and training when the weather was MVFR. I agree, you had better have some training in those conditions before you set wing in them. Anything else is a recipe for disaster.

Jim, here comes the training evaluation.

When your CFI obtained that special between LNS and S37, was there one SFVR clearance or two? IOW, did the clearance come from LNS tower, or did the CFI obtain a second SFVR clearance from Harrisburg approach? The reason I ask is that the clearance from LNS tower is only good in the Class D space. Lancaster tower doesn't own the E airspace at S37, Harrisburg does, so LNS tower can not issue a SVFR clearance in that airspace. It becomes obvious if you listen carefully to the wording from LNS tower, "... is cleared special VFR out of the Class Delta...". Notice the clearance was restricted to the Class D airspace. None of the CFI's at S37 seem to know this little trivia fact, and as a result they constantly fly and teach less than VMC illegally in the S37 Class E space. Worse, they teach their students to do the same.

If you want to fly SVFR between LNS and S37 you must ask LNS tower for a SVFR in the Class D airspace and also ask tower to request for you from Harrisburg approach a SVFR in the Class E airspace. If you receive both the clearance from LNS tower will be "Bugsmasher 1234 is cleared SVFR out of the class delta, expect SVFR clearance into the class echo airspace from Harrisburg approach." When tower switches you to approach Harrisburg will issue a second SVFR clearance, this one into the Class E airspace around Smoketown.

Ain't receiving bad instruction wonderful?

 

[grattonja]

Jim, here comes the training evaluation.

When your CFI obtained that special between LNS and S37, was there one SFVR clearance or two? IOW, did the clearance come from LNS tower, or did the CFI obtain a second SFVR clearance from Harrisburg approach? The reason I ask is that the clearance from LNS tower is only good in the Class D space. Lancaster tower doesn't own the E airspace at S37, Harrisburg does, so LNS tower can not issue a SVFR clearance in that airspace. It becomes obvious if you listen carefully to the wording from LNS tower, "... is cleared special VFR out of the Class Delta...". Notice the clearance was restricted to the Class D airspace. None of the CFI's at S37 seem to know this little trivia fact, and as a result they constantly fly and teach less than VMC illegally in the S37 Class E space. Worse, they teach their students to do the same.

If you want to fly SVFR between LNS and S37 you must ask LNS tower for a SVFR in the Class D airspace and also ask tower to request for you from Harrisburg approach a SVFR in the Class E airspace. If you receive both the clearance from LNS tower will be "Bugsmasher 1234 is cleared SVFR out of the class delta, expect SVFR clearance into the class echo airspace from Harrisburg approach." When tower switches you to approach Harrisburg will issue a second SVFR clearance, this one into the Class E airspace around Smoketown.

Ain't receiving bad instruction wonderful?

Actually, I have received something that is not quite either of the above. We have, to the best of my recollection, always requested our SVFR from Harrisburg approach over the radio inbound on the last approach. Then we have gotten that clearance from LNS, having told them that we had requested through Harrisburg. Now, I have never then gotten the second clearance en route to S37, I have always stayed with LNS tower until over or at S37. I think we have always cancelled in the pattern at LNS, with the exception of one time that was particularly scuzzy.

So I don't quite know where that leaves me.

Jim G

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Well, that is the long and short of it, and 3 bucks an acre is 3 bucks an acre as well. In order for me to make it, they've got to make it... then you get your own contracts and buy or lease your own plane, and now you become the guy that tells yourself "Lets go, got bills to pay". We figured for my buddy to crack the nut on his 502 Air Tractor and business, he had to do 100,000 acres a year. Or you have a pipeline contract and your client calls at 0200 and says "We've got a pressure drop on the XXX toXXX pipe, we need you up there first light", you aren't up there, you lose your contract, and it's paying your mortgage. I know that in the winter, a lot of pipeline inspection would be considered "Scud Running". You just can't cross several states without running into weather.

That's about the usual state of things. I got alot of experience flying through 3 weather/geographic zones MVFR/IFR/vfr for a few years... for business. Nothing quite like the prospect of cutting my losses by piloting/flying to get me into some whether weather flying.

Nobody ever made me do it.