Rich Stowell upset recovery

[RoscoeT]

And a realistic LOC scenario shouldn’t result in a one turn spin, either.

True, but if you actually depart into an incipient spin you'll recover with the least altitude loss if you let it come all the way around. Let's say you skid a turn and stall/spin and have the skills to instantly apply recovery inputs. In this case most airplanes will recover in an inverted attitude with the nose well below the horizon, but also well short of a vertical attitude, meaning a long pull out to level flight from this inverted attitude. If you let it come all the way around, you'll recover in an upright attitude pitched well below the horizon, but also well short of vertical down, meaning a much shorter pull out to level flight and the least amount of attitude loss.

This is all academic of course, since if you have the skill to deliberately recover an accidental spin entry by allowing sufficient rotation back to this upright attitude, then it's highly unlikely you'd have put yourself in this position to begin with.

 

[nauga]

Crawl - Walk - Run is a proven training method. Start with a benign trainer to learn the concepts, then move to more challenging aircraft and situations.

Proven, but not often applied in GA, based on my observations.

Nauga,
unbound by convention

 

[Ed Haywood]

And a realistic LOC scenario shouldn’t result in a one turn spin, either.

Yup. The most important skill is learning to recognize what an incipient spin looks like and how to react to prevent a fully developed spin. But there are some aircraft and situations where snap or spin entry can be abrupt and you are in for a rotation regardless. Fortunately those aircraft and situations are usually in the aerobatic domain, where pilots are generally well prepared.

 

[Ed Haywood]

Proven, but not often applied in GA, based on my observations.

Nauga,
unbound by convention

Usually depends on aircraft availability. Wagstaff's 5 hour basic airmanship and aerobatics course includes 4 hours in a Decathlon and 1 hour in an Extra. She also has an option for 2 hours in a Decathlon and 2 hours in an Extra. Less established schools and instructors may be limited to one plane. I think we can agree that training in any plane is better than none.

 

[Clip4]

Not sure what you're referring to by "highly current" and "current in normal operations". I'm talking about pilots who are very current and comfortable with spins of all types. Pilots with high skill/comfort level with spins are NOT the ones who normally drill in via accidental LOC unless they're doing some really boneheaded low-level aerobatics. The boneheads aren't usually the ones who seek advanced spin/upset training anyway, so we're not really talking about them.

I strongly disagree with your position that this type of training is pointless because of the altitudes involved. You don't seem to connect the fact that those who take it upon themselves to gain advanced skill, awareness, and experience are not the ones who end up flying fearfully, or skid turns because they're scared of bank angle, or put the airplane in a risky config because they don't know how close they are to the limit. Skill IS prevention. The crowd that advocates stall avoidance training is all that matters just doesn't get this.

I never say recurrent training is pointless. I assert an expensive upset course taught by a master CFI - test pilot- acro pilot is not needed. If any pilot has a concern (and obviously you do), experienced CFIs can provide comprehensive instruction in this area - maybe in conjunction with the next flight review. Provided they actually aren’t insulted by the flight portion exceeds 1.0.

 

[RoscoeT]

I assert an expensive upset course taught by a master CFI - test pilot- acro pilot is not needed. If any pilot has a concern (and obviously you do), experienced CFIs can provide comprehensive instruction in this area - maybe in conjunction with the next flight review.

Really? CFI's generally teach students how to recover an accidental roll upset attitude of 120-150 degrees? This means you're mostly on your back. And what type of aircraft do you think they'd use for this?

 

[Clip4]

Really? CFI's generally teach students how to recover an accidental roll upset attitude of 120-150 degrees? This means you're mostly on your back. And what type of aircraft do you think they'd use for this?

. My question is how in the hell did you find yourself in 150°of roll low to the ground where loss off upsets are fatal. That’s the deal with these courses, they all turn into acrobatics courses

A ounce of prevention is worth a ton of cure at this altitude.

 

[RoscoeT]

. My question is how in the hell did you find yourself in 150°of roll low to the ground where loss off upsets are fatal. That’s the deal with these courses, they all turn into acrobatics courses

A ounce of prevention is worth a ton of cure at this altitude.

Wake turbulence can happen at reasonable altitudes also. And again, not all upsets at pattern altitude are automatically fatal.

Everyone can choose their own skill level, but you should not discourage others from obtaining this sort of training just because you yourself don't have these skills or understand the value. The abstinence only crowd needs to sit out on the topic of this thread.

 

[Clip4]

Wake turbulence can happen at reasonable altitudes also. And again, not all upsets at pattern altitude are automatically fatal.

Everyone can choose their own skill level, but you should not discourage others from obtaining this sort of training just because you yourself don't have these skills or understand the value. The abstinence only crowd needs to sit out on the topic of this thread.

Pilots have to complete an upset training course to learn how to avoid wake turbulence? That can be done in any setting with a 15 minute power point presentation.

 

[Albany Tom]

I don't know what the utility of upset recovery training is, but the argument that it isn't necessarily simply because you can train to avoid it could be used to say that stall training is unnecessary, too. And we might be headed toward that, with slow flight now being kinda-slow flight. Avoidance training is different from recovery training.

Anyway, I don't think upset should be required for PPL, but don't think anyone's suggesting that, either. I do think it could be fun, and potentially useful if somehow I find that I've crossed behind a C-5 or something, cruising along fat dumb and happy as they say, and then find the ground not where I expect it to be. Those and other AF heavies do sometimes fly around here. But it's not on my list of anything to do soon.

 

[Doc Holliday]

If you are an active instructor doing what most good instructors do...and good at keeping paperwork, you can become a Master CFI. It's not that hard to qualify.

Qualify for a made up title? No thanks.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Qualify for a made up title? No thanks.

It's not like you can just buy it. You do have to do a bunch of work to get it, and paperwork to show you've done the work. And then you have to keep doing the work (and paperwork) to keep it. It's not at all a gimme.

 

[Doc Holliday]

It's not like you can just buy it. You do have to do a bunch of work to get it, and paperwork to show you've done the work. And then you have to keep doing the work (and paperwork) to keep it. It's not at all a gimme.

It's a bought and paid for "title" that people use to boost their egos. Yea, they have a process (not a difficult one) but in the end it's nothing more than a fancy title for resume enhancement.

Send me $500 and I'll give you a list of things to do then I'll issue you a certificate that says "Greatest Pilot Ever!" and a lapel pin to go with it.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Send me $500 and I'll give you a list of things to do then I'll issue you a certificate that says "Greatest Pilot Ever!" and a lapel pin to go with it.

How much extra for a lapel to put it on?

 

[Doc Holliday]

How much extra for a lapel to put it on?

Anything can be negotiated ($$$) After all, we want to make sure our members have glorious titles and all of the swag to go with it.

 

[EvilEagle]

I’d add that a stall/upset proficient pilot also knows that the limit is substantially closer to the ground than is generally believed, and that stalls/upsets at pattern altitude are still often recoverable with room to spare.

This is a big point I hammer home in the T-6 checkout course. It's a T-6-ism but if you are turning right to final at a normal altitude for that section of the pattern and enter an accelerated stall, you very likely cannot recover before impact. Knowing where the edges of the envelope (and practicing them regularly) is a great way to stay prepared for when something out of the ordinary happens. I'm a big proponent of advanced and continued training!

 

[Albany Tom]

Whenever I read this thread I'm reminded of the "watery tart" scene in one of the Monty Python movies.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

It's a bought and paid for "title" that people use to boost their egos. Yea, they have a process (not a difficult one) but in the end it's nothing more than a fancy title for resume enhancement.

I hadn't looked in a while, so I went and looked up the requirements because as I remembered it was not trivial. Here they are:

* 2+ years as a CFI and 1000+ hours of dual given
* 16+ points from the "Instructor" category, which can be:

- 4 points for each checkride endorsement given​

- 2-4 points for teaching a college aviation class​

- 1-3 points for teaching a ground school​

- 1 point for every 5 insurance checkouts/aircraft transitions given​

- 1 point for every 5 flight reviews given​

- 1 point for every 5 endorsements given (hi perf, complex, tailwheel, hi alt)​

- If you're a DPE, 1 point for every 5 checkrides given​

* 4+ points from the "Educator" category: (Developing educational materials)

- 3 points for aviation vocational classes​

- 1-3 points for high school aviation classes, original ground school courses, curricula​

- 1-2 points for FIRCs, industry courses, multimedia, or aviation apps​

- 1 point for safety seminars, guidebooks, manuals, published magazine/journal articles, and that sort of thing​

* 2+ points from "Service to the Aviation Community" category:

- 1-5 points as an airport manager​

- 1-3 points for an aviation related website​

- 1 point each for CAP, Scouts, Young Eagles, Angel Flight or other service org leadership​

- 1 point each for FAASTeam rep, ASN rep, EAA technical counselor, grant proposal, or FAA NPRM response​

* 2+ points from the "Professional Activity" category, focused on the instructor learning more:

- 1-4 points for building a homebuilt aircraft​

- 3 points for becoming a DPE​

- 1-3 points for obtaining an additional certificate or rating, or attending an aviation college class​

- 1-2 points for aviation conferences/conventions​

- 1 point each for aircraft/avionics transitions, ground school for cert/rating, CSIP, Wings program, FIRC, BFR/IPC, etc​

- 1 point for owning or restoration of a certified aircraft​

- 1 point for every 5 safety seminars attended​

* At least 32 total points - And no duplication is allowed across the categories.

So yeah, not at all "buying a title". Master CFI is the real deal, it's Gold Seal that's relatively easy.

 

[Doc Holliday]

So yeah, not at all "buying a title". Master CFI is the real deal, it's Gold Seal that's relatively easy.

So your list is relatively easy to achieve. Again, it's nothing but an ego title.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

So your list is relatively easy to achieve. Again, it's nothing but an ego title.

Sure, OK. Maybe if you're *already* an experienced CFI it's easy to achieve, but that's kind of the point - You're getting a certification that you're an experienced instructor.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Sure, OK. Maybe if you're *already* an experienced CFI it's easy to achieve, but that's kind of the point - You're getting a certification that you're an experienced instructor.

You're not getting any "certification". You are getting a piece of paper declaring you meet the requirements of their title by an organization that really has no bearing or authority on anything. Much like qualifying as a "Kentucky Colonel".

 

[wellknow]

You're not getting any "certification". You are getting a piece of paper declaring you meet the requirements of their title by an organization that really has no bearing or authority on anything. Much like qualifying as a "Kentucky Colonel".

 

[wellknow]

so absurdly fake. and some fraudsters use this to advertise this as if it’s a real accomplishment

 

[flyingcheesehead]

You're not getting any "certification". You are getting a piece of paper

What exactly do you think a "certificate" is? It's a piece of paper. I didn't say an FAA certificate.

declaring you meet the requirements of their title

which are non-trivial and demonstrably not able to be satisfied with nothing but cash

by an organization that really has no bearing or authority on anything.

Can you show us on the doll where NAFI hurt you?

 

[wellknow]

It’s a scam

 

[Doc Holliday]

What exactly do you think a "certificate" is? It's a piece of paper. I didn't say an FAA certificate.


which are non-trivial and demonstrably not able to be satisfied with nothing but cash


Can you show us on the doll where NAFI hurt you?

You should apply for your Nebraska Admiral certificate.

 

[Clip4]

I’d add that a stall/upset proficient pilot also knows that the limit is substantially closer to the ground than is generally believed, and that stalls/upsets at pattern altitude are still often recoverable with room to spare.

Stall yes, incipient spin probably, full spin not so much. Which still begs the question, why is the pilot finding themselves stalled or in a spin in the pattern or any where for that matter?

 

[MauleSkinner]

Stall yes, incipient spin probably, full spin not so much. Which still begs the question, why is the pilot finding themselves stalled or in a spin in the pattern or any where for that matter?

That’s where those skeptical of upset training tend to put them.

I am always skeptical of “upset” training courses because a majority of true upsets occur in the traffic patterns

 

[RoscoeT]

Stall yes, incipient spin probably, full spin not so much.

Doesn't sound like you have much (if any) experience with spins. A half turn spin requires more altitude to recover than a full turn spin. Those who've done enough to notice what's happening know why this is.