Reverse sensing kicked my behind!

drizzt76

drizzt76

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Jul 9, 2007
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Cedar Falls, IA
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Display name:
Scott M.
I had my first Inst. training flight today in a airplane. The first approch was the LOC/DME BC 13 at DBQ. I knew about reverse sensing and was prepaired for it but I couldn't get over how much it screwed with my head during the approach. I only had HSI's with a RMI in the background all through my helicopter training in the Army. The only time I used a OBS is in the airplane which my experience is limited. Even turning the HSI "upside down" isn't required in the Blackhawk because it has a BC button. I read stories of people "stepping up" to HSI's but in my little experience it's also hard to "step down". I am aiming at getting my required time (15 hours) and taking the checkride. I know I'll get over it...just thought someone out there might like my little story.
 
I use to use the mantra "I am the needle" when doing BC's in training.
 
drizzt76 said:
I read stories of people "stepping up" to HSI's but in my little experience it's also hard to "step down".
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I know I would find it very hard to step down from a HSI to an OBS even though that's how I originally learned. Seems like I was taught to imagine a rubber band hooked to the needle and turning in a way to pull it towards the center.
 
Thanks Steve...I will try it. I just thought it would come to me during the approach but it's the only time I felt behind the aircraft in a long time.
 
Why in the name of all that's holy would an instructor worth the powder it takes to blow him up take someone out on the first instrument rating training flight and give him an approach of any kind, no less a LOC(BC), and even then, do that LOC(BC) first, and withough prebriefing it thoroughly on the ground? Even if you have an IR-H from the Army, there's a lot of spadework to be done on an additional airplane rating course before you start doing approaches. You might ask this instructor to show you the syllabus he's using -- it might be instructive. I know I'd like to see it.
 
Ron Levy said:
Even if you have an IR-H from the Army, there's a lot of spadework to be done on an additional airplane rating course before you start doing approaches. You might ask this instructor to show you the syllabus he's using -- it might be instructive. I know I'd like to see it.
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Syllabus? We don't need no stinkin silly bus!

Sounds more like a case of "humble that cocky military chopper pilot" than any actual training to me.
 
Ron Levy said:
Why in the name of all that's holy would an instructor worth the powder it takes to blow him up take someone out on the first instrument rating training flight and give him an approach of any kind, no less a LOC(BC), and even then, do that LOC(BC) first, and withough prebriefing it thoroughly on the ground? (snip)
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Edit: I at first thought "eek" but now I see that you're already instrument rated in helicopters, so it's not like you're totally brand-new to instrument flying. However I still agree with Ron it's a bit much to expect of you when it's only your first IFR lesson in a plane, using a system you're not used to.

Before performing this approach, did you feel like you had a firm grasp of how to fly the airplane through all sorts of attitudes solely by instruments, with a good deal of confidence and skill? (My guess is no, but I don't know you well enough!) If not, I can see why the LOC(BC) approach would have been quite difficult -- it is too much workload to expect of someone just trying to learn basic instrument skills.
 
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ok...I just want to share the experience of something that actually got me behind the aircraft and some of you gave little catch phrases to help me out, thank you. I know there is more to inst. instruction than that but I'm not asking for it in this thread. I also know there are better CFII's out there in the world and if anyone wants me for a student by all means...its wonderful wx here in Iowa. I still have 14 hours left before my proposed checkride. I hope my lousy CFI can get the job done.
 
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I verbalize what the needle represents - with reverse indicating, the needle represents the aircraft instead of the course so if the needle is left, I verbalize "The aircraft is left of course".

Nitpicky but I don't like the term "reverse sensing". Nothing has changed with the sensing. "Reverse indicating" seems more correct to me.
 
Graueradler said:
I Nitpicky but I don't like the term "reverse sensing". Nothing has changed with the sensing. "Reverse indicating" seems more correct to me.
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Good point and not nitpicky at all when you are correct...i will change my verbage. Thanks
 
Ron Levy said:
Why in the name of all that's holy would an instructor worth the powder it takes to blow him up take someone out on the first instrument rating training flight and give him an approach of any kind, no less a LOC(BC), and even then, do that LOC(BC) first, and withough prebriefing it thoroughly on the ground? Even if you have an IR-H from the Army, there's a lot of spadework to be done on an additional airplane rating course before you start doing approaches. You might ask this instructor to show you the syllabus he's using -- it might be instructive. I know I'd like to see it.
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I agree my first flight was basically lets see how wel you control the airplane and what we can do to improve it under the hood. i.e. get the scan working.

However at PTK unless it's a tailwind they always try to use runway 27 which has a LOC(BC) approach. I suspect a first shot at it, especially if it is uncommon to get at the airport, would be a good learning experience.

.02 an nothin' more;)
 
Scott:

Thanks for sharing! I was an Army rotary wing guy that later got my fixed-wing ratings. Hope it goes well for you.

I still have to think through the BC stuff. Had a mix up at Rockford last weekend even though I have an HSI, AP with a BC button and Garmin 530. I actually have a checklist for setting up that approach now because even if you punch everything right, there is a timing issue if you pass a way point. (The Garmin unit went back to GPS mode even after I selected vectors to final.)

Hope it goes well for you. Knowing the equipment is as important as knowing how to fly it yourself!!

BTW, I busted my first instrument check ride back in '71 because I went down to military minimums (using DOD charts). Had to go back the next week and remain at civil minimums <g>.

Best,

Dave
 
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Ron Levy said:
Uhhh...Tony, I think that's your cue.
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LOL There is a distance issue there.

If I felt at least half competent at Instrument Instructing, I would tackle it. I just don't want a student have to pay for me to get back up to speed. :yes::D
 
drizzt76 said:
ok...I just want to share the experience of something that actually got me behind the aircraft and some of you gave little catch phrases to help me out, thank you. I know there is more to inst. instruction than that but I'm not asking for it in this thread.
Click to expand...

You should know by now that you generally get more than you ask for here (not to mention more than you want):D

I have to admit that after flying with a HSI for years, or worse yet not having flown a back course due to having a GPS that's eliminated the need everywhere I've been in a while, I fully expect to have to work at chasing the BC needle if I ever attempt such folly. I can tell you that for me the key was continuously reminding myself to "fly away from the needle" and "make the needle chase me" when I did fly these pre-HSI and pre-GPS. I truly believe that your significant past experience will only make this particular and peculiar task more difficult than it ought to be since you've no doubt acquired plenty of "muscle memory" flying towards the needles that will have to be overcome.

This reminds me of a time long ago when a friend and I replace the steering cable on his outboard powered boat. This was before single "push-pull" cables were commonly used for this purpose and the typical setup involved a wire rope running through pulleys from the engine and around a drum attached to the steering wheel. Given that we were 14 year old know-it-alls we managed to wire it up backwards so that turning the wheel clockwise made the boat turn left. Once we discovered the mistake we thought it would be fun to try operating the boat that way. But just knowing it was backwards was nowhere near sufficient to allow either of us to control it without considerable wandering back and forth across the intended course. And after an hour or so of such foolishness we redid the work in the proper manner without ever managing to accommodate the reverse control. I half expected to have trouble reverting to normal steering after fixing it but we were both able to manage immediately without any "unlearning". I think that at the time we concluded that our brains were "pre-wired" for normal steering behavior and that may be the case but it's more likely that we simply had too much "experience" with the standard setup to make the switch without a lot of time behind the "backwards" wheel.

I also know there are better CFII's out there in the world and if anyone wants me for a student by all means...its wonderful wx here in Iowa. I still have 14 hours left before my proposed checkride. I hope my lousy CFI can get the job done.
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If you are serious, get hold of Tony Condon. I've flown with him a number of times and I think he'd be of great help to you.
 
lancefisher said:
I truly believe that your significant past experience will only make this particular and peculiar task more difficult than it ought to be since you've no doubt acquired plenty of "muscle memory" flying towards the needles that will have to be overcome.
.
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Lance,
You hit it on the head. Every approch I've done in the past was pictorially correct. We did go over it on the ground and I knew it was going to happen and I thought "no big deal, I will just do the opposite." Not so easy. My muscle memory wouldn't let it happen... I know I'm a odd duck in my training because of my past experience and that is why my CFI trusts my judgement in what I want to do for a lesson.

Just like the deadly habit of pulling back the yoke on short final when things were not going right during my PP training(I only had to do that once to appreciate the lesson) there will be problems that I will overcome with my IA experience.
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Scott:

Thanks for sharing! I was an Army rotary wing guy that later got my fixed-wing ratings. Hope it goes well for you.

I still have to think through the BC stuff. Had a mix up at Rockford last weekend even though I have an HSI, AP with a BC button and Garmin 530. I actually have a checklist for setting up that approach now because even if you punch everything right, there is a timing issue if you pass a way point. (The Garmin unit went back to GPS mode even after I selected vectors to final.)

Hope it goes well for you. Knowing the equipment is as important as knowing how to fly it yourself!!

BTW, I busted my first instrument check ride back in '71 because I went down to military minimums (using DOD charts). Had to go back the next week and remain at civil minimums <g>.

Best,

Dave
Click to expand...

Thanks Dave...when I get a little too confident I'll do the LOC BC RWY 19 at RFD:yes:.
 
I just came back from my second IA lesson and "I'm the needle" worked wonders. The OBS and I were one...we rose to a diffrent level. The relationship was a rocky start but I think me and the OBS might just make a team.
 
Glad it helped.

Sometimes not overthinking a problem is the best solution.
 
lancefisher said:
This reminds me of a time long ago when a friend and I replace the steering cable on his outboard powered boat. This was before single "push-pull" cables were commonly used for this purpose and the typical setup involved a wire rope running through pulleys from the engine and around a drum attached to the steering wheel. Given that we were 14 year old know-it-alls we managed to wire it up backwards so that turning the wheel clockwise made the boat turn left. Once we discovered the mistake we thought it would be fun to try operating the boat that way. But just knowing it was backwards was nowhere near sufficient to allow either of us to control it without considerable wandering back and forth across the intended course. And after an hour or so of such foolishness we redid the work in the proper manner without ever managing to accommodate the reverse control. I half expected to have trouble reverting to normal steering after fixing it but we were both able to manage immediately without any "unlearning". I think that at the time we concluded that our brains were "pre-wired" for normal steering behavior and that may be the case but it's more likely that we simply had too much "experience" with the standard setup to make the switch without a lot of time behind the "backwards" wheel.
Click to expand...

Wasn't there a famous test pilot and author that was just killed a couple of years ago when the jet he was flying came out of maintenance with the aileron cables crossed? They failed to verify the "flight controls free and correct" part of their pre-flight and took off.
 
I've read that Cessna built his first gliders with rudder controls that would be considered "opposite" today, patterning them after the directional control of snow sleds he played with as a boy.

t0r0nad0 said:
Wasn't there a famous test pilot and author that was just killed a couple of years ago when the jet he was flying came out of maintenance with the aileron cables crossed? They failed to verify the "flight controls free and correct" part of their pre-flight and took off.
Click to expand...
 
on Loc BC's dial in the front course of the approach and all of this is alot easier.(the needle deviations will read as if you were on a normal loc approach).
 
t0r0nad0 said:
Wasn't there a famous test pilot and author that was just killed a couple of years ago when the jet he was flying came out of maintenance with the aileron cables crossed? They failed to verify the "flight controls free and correct" part of their pre-flight and took off.
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This happened to me in 1999. I was the first to take a rental just out of mx after changing the bullet ridden wings (a whole 'nother story). Surprised yes, but not shocked to see the ailerons crossed like that. After all, we're all human. Actually, the biggest surprise was how 3 A&Ps missed it.

Two did the work, the third signed off.
 
scott-

i believe you have my number. not sure how much help I can be. at least moral support or someone to bounce questions off of if you need it. school is keeping me super busy, not to mention my students...
 
Tony,

Your in my book for a glider lessons but in the distant future....Thanks for the offer.
 
taters said:
on Loc BC's dial in the front course of the approach and all of this is alot easier.(the needle deviations will read as if you were on a normal loc approach).
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That's good advice for anyone flying with a HSI, but incorrect if you're using an OBS/CDI as the OBS portion doesn't function on a LOC.
 
With only an OBS, here's a simple way to fly a LOC BC or an ILS . Look at the plate, set the course for the for the inbound ILS. It doesn't matter in you are flying inbound or outbound, if the shaded side is on your right fly TO the needle. If it is on your left, fly away FROM the needle. After a couple of times it seems easy. Just have to remember what kind of approach you are shooting. For example look at the LOC BC 19 at KRFD.

LOC BC RWY 19 KRFD

Shooting the BC, the shaded area is on the left. Set the OBS to 005 and fly away from the needle, either in or out. Imagine you are on the ILS to RWY 10. You would fly to the needle either in out.
 
Noah Werka said:
With only an OBS, here's a simple way to fly a LOC BC or an ILS . Look at the plate, set the course for the for the inbound ILS. It doesn't matter in you are flying inbound or outbound, if the shaded side is on your right fly TO the needle. If it is on your left, fly away FROM the needle. After a couple of times it seems easy. Just have to remember what kind of approach you are shooting. For example look at the LOC BC 19 at KRFD.

LOC BC RWY 19 KRFD

Shooting the BC, the shaded area is on the left. Set the OBS to 005 and fly away from the needle, either in or out. Imagine you are on the ILS to RWY 10. You would fly to the needle either in out.
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JOOC why do you recommend setting the OBS to the front course inbound heading? I've always found it helpful to set the OBS to the intended course (inbound on either the front or back course) on final so I can refer to that on my DG. It seems to me that setting the front course inbound heading just adds to the confusion.

Also I'm not sure what you meant by "fly away from the needle, either in or out" but if you are referring to inbound and outbound on a back course, you fly to the needle outbound and away from the needle inbound regardless of where you set the OBS. I also fail to see how looking at the shading on the arrow is of any value here even though I know it indicates which side of the course will cause a left deviation indication.

To me it's dirt simple in theory, when flying in the direction of the inbound front course you fly towards the needle and in the opposite direction you fly from the needle or as some like to think, you drag/pull the needle back to center. IME the problems stem from simply forgetting which way you're going relative to the front course and more significantly the difficulty in operating contrary to most of your practice.
 
Troy, I think that's the one I was referring to. I remember many of the columnists in I think it was Flying commenting on such a sad (and unnecessary) loss because they just made sure their controls were free, and not so much correct. I think many of them knew the pilot(s).
 
KennyFlys said:
I thought that's what "Flight Controls -- FREE and CORRECT" is supposed to prevent?

That's a sad loss.
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Hey, it almost happened to me one day. Rudder hooked up backwards on a 150. I saw what I wanted to see.

It really is amazing how much rudder authority there is at taxi speed.
 
I admit I don't always check "correct" if I know it's just been flying. But if there's a chance it's been in maintenance, heck yeah!
 
Back to flyina a Back Course. If you have one of the older style OBS indicators that is hinged at the top, you can just fly the top of the needle. The top will point you in the correct direction. All I can say is that it works for me.

Pete
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Hey, it almost happened to me one day. Rudder hooked up backwards on a 150. I saw what I wanted to see.

It really is amazing how much rudder authority there is at taxi speed.
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I've come across some who modified it and I was guilty of this myself early on... I would say "Free and Clear." The latter won't matter if it's not moving in the correct position.

As far as rudder authority, this is very true. I wonder how many miss rudder trim and only adjust elevator trim on the before takeoff checklist. It might come back and bite ya on takeoff and departure if it's not as expected.
 
drizzt76 said:
I had my first Inst. training flight today in a airplane. The first approch was the LOC/DME BC 13 at DBQ. I knew about reverse sensing and was prepaired for it but I couldn't get over how much it screwed with my head during the approach. I only had HSI's with a RMI in the background all through my helicopter training in the Army. The only time I used a OBS is in the airplane which my experience is limited. Even turning the HSI "upside down" isn't required in the Blackhawk because it has a BC button. I read stories of people "stepping up" to HSI's but in my little experience it's also hard to "step down". I am aiming at getting my required time (15 hours) and taking the checkride. I know I'll get over it...just thought someone out there might like my little story.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I got caught by that the other day, I've gotten so used to having an HSI I forgot all about reverse sensing on a regular OBS/CDI...
 
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