retract endorsement?

[Matthew]

PA-28R-180 - retract, but not complex (fixed pitch prop). What kind of endorsement is required? What's a typical/average number of hours to expect? What about typical insurance minimums, such as "must have xxx hours in type prior to PIC" or similar?

 

[Henning]

PA-28R-180 - retract, but not complex (fixed pitch prop). What kind of endorsement is required? What's a typical/average number of hours to expect? What about typical insurance minimums, such as "must have xxx hours in type prior to PIC" or similar?

Fixed pitch on an Arrow??? Never before have I seen such an animal. Pray tell from whence you obtained this mythical beast? Besides, it would be complex that would still cover it. 10hrs is typical for insurance at fresh PP on up levels. Insurance rewards you for stepping up to a retract quick.

 

[Matthew]

Fixed pitch on an Arrow???

D'oh - my mistake -(insert face-palm)- I was looking at it all wrong and thought some of the early ones came with a fixed pitch prop!!

 

[Henning]

D'oh - my mistake - I was looking at it all wrong and thought some of the early ones came with a fixed pitch prop!!

The difference between the Arrow 180 and 200 is Straight Valve low compression engine on the 180 and angle valve high compression engine on the 200. The 200 I know is fuel injected, the 180 I think is but it could also have a carb for the type, size and rating. The only 180 I flew was faster than all the 200s I flew.

 

[Matthew]

My primary rental plane is out of commission (possibly forever) so I've been looking to see what else I might step into. I got interested in the Arrow-180. I haven't asked the rental place about their requirements yet. Dunno if I'll follow through on it just now.

 

[Henning]

My primary rental plane is out of commission (possibly forever) so I've been looking to see what else I might step into. I got interested in the Arrow-180. I haven't asked the rental place about their requirements yet. Dunno if I'll follow through on it just now.

It's a perfectly reasonable plane to cross the country in, I did it with a wet temp. It'll get across the Rockies on a good day even in the summer. If you can rent it at a reasonable cost, it's good to build retract time in, the insurance companies will count it towards the Bonanza you'll buy... They counted it towards my Travelair, that's for sure.

 

[Matthew]

I'll keep that in mind. It's always fun to learn something new, too.

 

[Jaybird180]

Fixed pitch on an Arrow??? Never before have I seen such an animal. Pray tell from whence you obtained this mythical beast? Besides, it would be complex that would still cover it. 10hrs is typical for insurance at fresh PP on up levels. Insurance rewards you for stepping up to a retract quick.

On this rare occasion, I must disagree with you sir. Complex requires all 3 (wing flaps, movable pitch propeller and retractable gear).

 

[Henning]

On this rare occasion, I must disagree with you sir. Complex requires all 3 (wing flaps, movable pitch propeller and retractable gear).

So, Am I safe in taking it that your stance is he would not require a complex endorsement to operate a retract plane with a FP prop? I doubt that's the interpretation Counsel would come back with, but maybe. I just said a complex would cover the operation of the mythical beast, and it would. Might not be necassary, but doesn't hurt. It be interesting to see it addressed. Regardless, in any Arrow he is going to need a complex.

 

[Artiom]

Second Jaybird180. Complex means all 3 things - flaps, CS prop and retractable gear. But Arrow is not High Performance.
I had two options to get better than C172 XC plane at the place I rent - C182 and Arrow. Both are priced pretty close. All my time was in C152 and C172. C182 is more comfortable comfortable and bigger then Arrow. Plus no retractable gear - less time to get the endorsement. But one day I would like to get complex endorsement just for sake of it
May be as a part of multi engine transition, who knows

 

[Jaybird180]

Agreed that he would be covered with a complex, but it wouldn't be required in the mythical example.

 

[Matthew]

The mythical expample (still stinging from that mistake) - probably would fall under the same category as a plane with flaps, but without the other requirements of "complex" - the c/s prop and retract:

>>>
...no person may act as pilot in command of a complex airplane (an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller; or, in the case of a seaplane, flaps and a controllable pitch propeller), unless the person has--...
<<<

So - Is there such a beast?

 

[Henning]

The mythical expample (still stinging from that mistake) - probably would fall under the same category as a plane with flaps, but without the other requirements of "complex" - the c/s prop and retract:

>>>
...no person may act as pilot in command of a complex airplane (an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller; or, in the case of a seaplane, flaps and a controllable pitch propeller), unless the person has--...
<<<

So - Is there such a beast?

I'm sure there are prewar examples to be found and I think the Swift and Culver Cadet were FP retracts, Mooney Mite....

 

[TripleZ]

PA-28R-180 - retract, but not complex (fixed pitch prop). What kind of endorsement is required? What's a typical/average number of hours to expect? What about typical insurance minimums, such as "must have xxx hours in type prior to PIC" or similar?

10Hrs is what my FBO requires as well. Takes a long time getting there with a $130/hr rental and $30 for the CFI.

Its fun though, you'll get spoiled with the constant speed prop really quick.

 

[RyanShort1]

I had a very interesting conversation with a DPE once about whether one could retract an endorsement or not. Had to do with a previous instructor's endorsements and whether they were still valid several years later or not. He suggested in some cases putting an expiration date on the endorsement if something was left incomplete for an extended period of time.

Ok, sorry for the thread drift.

Ryan

 

[Jaybird180]

I had a very interesting conversation with a DPE once about whether one could retract an endorsement or not. Had to do with a previous instructor's endorsements and whether they were still valid several years later or not. He suggested in some cases putting an expiration date on the endorsement if something was left incomplete for an extended period of time.

Ok, sorry for the thread drift.

Ryan

Then why accept an endorsement from a CFI who put a time limit on it? There's no expiration on my certificate so why is there one on his endorsement???

And if he didn't cover something important, then we're talking about misrepresentation or worse.

 

[RyanShort1]

Then why accept an endorsement from a CFI who put a time limit on it? There's no expiration on my certificate so why is there one on his endorsement???

And if he didn't cover something important, then we're talking about misrepresentation or worse.

Thread drift on!

Well, the instructor's endorsement might be an endorsement of "proficiency" - which would likely be lost by the time a student resumed flight training two or three years later... That was his point. It was an interesting discussion.

Ryan

 

[poadeleted20]

So, Am I safe in taking it that your stance is he would not require a complex endorsement to operate a retract plane with a FP prop? I doubt that's the interpretation Counsel would come back with, but maybe.

I don't doubt it at all. The reg is clear and unambiguous. However, there aren't many FP/RG airplanes out there, and the insurer would probably require a complex endorsement anyway (even if the FAA doesn't), so it's not likely to arise.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

However, there aren't many FP/RG airplanes out there, and the insurer would probably require a complex endorsement anyway (even if the FAA doesn't), so it's not likely to arise.

Just to be clear, the complex endorsement would have to be done in something with all three, Gear Flaps and Prop, correct? Couldn't do it in our mythical plane.

 

[Henning]

Just to be clear, the complex endorsement would have to be done in something with all three, Gear Flaps and Prop, correct? Couldn't do it in our mythical plane.

Didn't they give a special dispensation for the DA-40 or something?

 

[TMetzinger]

Didn't they give a special dispensation for the DA-40 or something?

No...

The TwinStar (with FADEC) got defined as a complex airplane even though the pilot cannot directly control the prop pitch. It IS a controllable-pitch prop on each engine (and full feathering too), it's just that the prop controls are effectively hidden and mechanically interlinked with the throttles.

 

[shenanigans]

I had a very interesting conversation with a DPE once about whether one could retract an endorsement or not. Had to do with a previous instructor's endorsements and whether they were still valid several years later or not. He suggested in some cases putting an expiration date on the endorsement if something was left incomplete for an extended period of time.

Ok, sorry for the thread drift.

Ryan

Does the FAA recognize expiration dates on endorsements? For example, could a CFI given a complex endorsement that expires in 6 months??

 

[ajstoner21]

Does the FAA recognize expiration dates on endorsements? For example, could a CFI given a complex endorsement that expires in 6 months??

I personally don't see how a CFI has any authority what so ever, to say that a complex endorsement will have an expiration date. If a CFI trys to give your endorsement an expiration date, he is on a power trip or is lying about what training was given.

HOWEVER, if you are renting, the flight school may have "currency" requirements for the endorsement. Suppose you got an endorsement through them, but only flew regular planes for the next year, they may require you to get a new "check out" in their complex plane to rent it again, but that is far from an endorsement having an expiration date.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

He suggested in some cases putting an expiration date on the endorsement if something was left incomplete for an extended period of time.

Ryan

I don't understand. How could someone give an endorsement if "something was left incomplete"? I personally would not give an endorsement unless all the squares were filled.

Does the FAA recognize expiration dates on endorsements? For example, could a CFI given a complex endorsement that expires in 6 months??

I think the answer to both are "No". Once endorsed, always endorsed. Until something happens that would cause the FAA to rescind an endorsement.

 

[Matthew]

HOWEVER, if you are renting, the flight school may have "currency" requirements for the endorsement.

That's the way my FBO works it with their Citabria. You may have that tailwheel endorsement, but you also need to fly it a certain number of hours a month.

 

[Henning]

No...

The TwinStar (with FADEC) got defined as a complex airplane even though the pilot cannot directly control the prop pitch. It IS a controllable-pitch prop on each engine (and full feathering too), it's just that the prop controls are effectively hidden and mechanically interlinked with the throttles.

That's it, that's what it was, the prop on the FADEC models.

 

[poadeleted20]

Just to be clear, the complex endorsement would have to be done in something with all three, Gear Flaps and Prop, correct? Couldn't do it in our mythical plane.

Right -- unless it's a seaplane, in which case it needs only flaps and pilot-controllable (not necessarily constant-speed) prop. From an FAA perspective, if you had SEL and SES ratings, you could do all your complex training in a 182 on floats, then jump in a Mooney and fly it away, although it's not likely the Mooney owner or the insurer would allow it.

 

[poadeleted20]

Does the FAA recognize expiration dates on endorsements? For example, could a CFI given a complex endorsement that expires in 6 months??

In general, instructors are authorized to place limitations on their endorsements, and those are binding. Typically, you see things like crosswind limits on Student Pilot solo endorsements, and I've heard of instructors placing time limits on written test endorsements. However, I've never heard of anyone putting an expiration date on a complex endorsement, and I can't imagine a trainee accepting that, either. I'd say it's something that's theoretically possible, but almost certainly has/will never happened.

 

[Henning]

In general, instructors are authorized to place limitations on their endorsements, and those are binding. Typically, you see things like crosswind limits on Student Pilot solo endorsements, and I've heard of instructors placing time limits on written test endorsements. However, I've never heard of anyone putting an expiration date on a complex endorsement, and I can't imagine a trainee accepting that, either. I'd say it's something that's theoretically possible, but almost certainly has/will never happened.

I can't see how the FAA would see it as kosher. Why would you put an expiation date on a complex endorsement? What would be the reasoning? Somebody previously put in "time to complete something", but I don't know of any FAA allowance for "Partially Completed Endorsement" where you have a certain amount of time to get something done while still being allowed to exercise the privileges of that endorsement.. They want you to have the work done for the endorsement, and once the work is done, there is no expiry date that the FAA has made provisions for. Under what auspice could the FAA or the CFI rule that that limitation was enforceable?

 

[poadeleted20]

I can't see how the FAA would see it as kosher. Why would you put an expiation date on a complex endorsement? What would be the reasoning? Somebody previously put in "time to complete something", but I don't know of any FAA allowance for "Partially Completed Endorsement" where you have a certain amount of time to get something done while still being allowed to exercise the privileges of that endorsement.. They want you to have the work done for the endorsement, and once the work is done, there is no expiry date that the FAA has made provisions for. Under what auspice could the FAA or the CFI rule that that limitation was enforceable?

As I said, I cannot see and have not seen anyone do it. However, I know of no reg prohibiting an instructor from doing so, and once it's there, it's part of the endorsement. OTOH, there's no case law on point, so if some CFI were silly enough to do this, and the FAA got involved, there's no telling for sure what the FAA would do. So, if some CFI puts such a limitation in your logbook, I suggest finding another CFI to give another endorsement without that limitation before you exceed it.

 

[jesse]

FWIW, the FAA inspector that did my CFI ride, said I can put limitations on any endorsement I sign.

That said, I would not put an expiration on a complex. That's ridiculous.

 

[RyanShort1]

FWIW, the FAA inspector that did my CFI ride, said I can put limitations on any endorsement I sign.

That said, I would not put an expiration on a complex. That's ridiculous.

I wouldn't either, but the examiner and I had the discussion after looking at a student's logbook that I signed of for his PPL checkride. He had 200 hours at the time of the PPL checkride (not kidding) and a number of various instructors' endorsements. It's a long story.

Ryan