Requirements to enter Class A; B; C; D

[fiveoboy01]

Depends on the type of beer

 

[flyingron]

No, but if he's talking to you he doesn't need to approve your entry.

 

[acrophile]

Ground controllers are not supposed to use the word "cleared."

Which is ironic, since they in fact issue taxi clearances.

 

[bobmrg]

Which is ironic, since they in fact issue taxi clearances.

I agree that while the phrase "taxi clearance" appears in more than one FAA document, the fact remains that ground controllers issue taxi instructions.
You won't hear a ground controller say "Cleared to taxi to runway 32,"
or "Cleared across runway 23."

From 3-7-1 in the 7110.65:

"c. Do not use the word "cleared" in conjunction with authorization for aircraft to taxi or equipment/vehicle/personnel operations. Use the prefix "taxi," "proceed," or "hold," as appropriate, for aircraft instructions and "proceed" or "hold" for equipment/vehicles/personnel."

Bob

 

[acrophile]

I agree that while the phrase "taxi clearance" appears in more than one FAA document

Including, in particular, the AIM, which is the FAA's primary document for systematically informing pilots of proper terminology and conventions. The AIM repeatedly, unambiguously speaks of taxi clearances.

the fact remains that ground controllers issue taxi instructions.
You won't hear a ground controller say "Cleared to taxi to runway 32,"
or "Cleared across runway 23."

An ATC directive needn't include the word "cleared" to constitute a clearance. For example, if I'm IFR and ATC tells me "Descend and maintain 6000" or "Fly direct XYZ", those are still clearances.

Similarly, ground-control taxiing directives are clearances that omit the word "cleared".

 

[flyingron]

Class B - VFR if explicitly cleared to enter the airspace. You must hear something like "cleared into Bravo..."

All traffic must have a clearance to enter. It's the VFR clearance that has the formed "cleared into..."

Class D - establish communication with the tower. Just calling the tower is sufficient. They don't have to answer in order to enter.

BullPoop. "Each person must establish two-way radio communications

Class E, G - no communication required.

Communications is not the predominate description of the airspace.

 

[N801BH]

All traffic must have a clearance to enter. It's the VFR clearance that has the formed "cleared into..."

BullPoop. "Each person must establish two-way radio communications


Communications is not the predominate description of the airspace.

Hmmm...

Several planes come into KJAC /D airspace each year. NORDO... Usually around Airventure time heading to the show and looking for fuel.... They get the light gun.......

Now what ?

 

[Geewiz]

So my question to the OP would be: are you sure the context of the discussion was general operations and not specifically IFR operations?

He asked what are the requirements for entering controlled airspace. I replied that A requires IFR and B requires clearance, and C and D require you establish communications.

His reply" NO!" you must have clearance for all controlled airspace! I tried to interject, "But, but, but..." but he wouldn't let me elaborate. "You MUST obtain clearance before entering!"

At that point I felt it wasn't worth arguing about so just sort of capitulated.

 

[Geewiz]

Hmmm...

Several planes come into KJAC /D airspace each year. NORDO... Usually around Airventure time heading to the show and looking for fuel.... They get the light gun.......

Now what ?

Are they transponding 7600? If so, and I'm taking a WAG here, that once tower sees you have no radio and they reply with the light gun, that would satisfy the requirement to establish communications?

 

[MAKG1]

I can see a small issue with your answer for class A since you can only be IFR there, as a pp you can never enter this space. You are technically correct for the remainder of your answer. The minor difference he may have been looking for is with class B. With class B you must specifically ask for and be granted permission to enter. With C and D radio communication is all that is needed, not specific permission.

The remained of the requirements are A,B,C require an altitude encoding transponder (mode C) and a radio. D only requires a radio and a transponder.

Actually, you don't have to ask for class B clearances. You do have to get them prior to entry.

I've had them given spontaneously before.

 

[rbridges]

I can see a small issue with your answer for class A since you can only be IFR there, as a pp you can never enter this space. You are technically correct for the remainder of your answer. The minor difference he may have been looking for is with class B. With class B you must specifically ask for and be granted permission to enter. With C and D radio communication is all that is needed, not specific permission.

The remained of the requirements are A,B,C require an altitude encoding transponder (mode C) and a radio. D only requires a radio and a transponder.

I think Class C requires radio and transponder, Class D only requires radio.

 

[azure]

He asked what are the requirements for entering controlled airspace. I replied that A requires IFR and B requires clearance, and C and D require you establish communications.

His reply" NO!" you must have clearance for all controlled airspace! I tried to interject, "But, but, but..." but he wouldn't let me elaborate. "You MUST obtain clearance before entering!"

It really sounds like he was thinking of IFR ops and you were thinking more generally. If not, he was quite simply confused. Either way, since this was a BFR and not an IPC based on your first post, I sure wouldn't assume the question was about IFR ops.

It really sounds like he just shouldn't be instructing, and I'd personally fire any instructor on the spot who was so spectacularly, insistently wrong.

 

[Skywalker]

Sounds like regardless of his length of experience he needs a refresher, both on the regulations and on instructing.

That... He should specially review the instructing part.... As he hasn't signed you off on your BFR, look for a different instructor. After such an experiencee, I couldn't be relaxed around this instructor and would quite likely fail again...

 

[bflynn]

Emphasis mine.

Are you saying that if approach ignores my call, I can enter the C anyways?

No, he is saying that establishing communications is neither a clearance nor permission.

 

[sarangan]

Class C VFR communications is ****NOT**** a clearance in any FAA sense of the word.

You don't need clearance or any permission to enter class C, D, or E controlled airspace.

If you really don't need permission to enter class C, you should be able to fly into it without informing anyone. Establishing two-way communications implies that you have permission to enter, although ATC does not explicitly say "you are now permitted to enter class C airspace". Besides, they have the authority to decline entry even if you establish two way communications. This is like the arguing whether pilots have certificates or licenses. Its just semantics.

 

[flyingron]

If you really don't need permission to enter class C, you should be able to fly into it without informing anyone. Establishing two-way communications implies that you have permission to enter, although ATC does not explicitly say "you are now permitted to enter class C airspace". Besides, they have the authority to decline entry even if you establish two way communications. This is like the arguing whether pilots have certificates or licenses. Its just semantics.

But SEMANTICS have very important meaning in pilot communications. You can argue it all means the same things but it DOES NOT. There's a whole world of difference from getting FF around a class C and deciding to fly through it than there is with a class B. You are expected to remain clear of a class B without clearance. You are not expected to remain clear of a class C.

 

[JeffDG]

But SEMANTICS have very important meaning in pilot communications. You can argue it all means the same things but it DOES NOT. There's a whole world of difference from getting FF around a class C and deciding to fly through it than there is with a class B. You are expected to remain clear of a class B without clearance. You are not expected to remain clear of a class C.

Yep...let's say you're tooling around just outside a Class C, and you're talking to Approach. It's a sightseeing flight, but no real plan as to where you're going. You catch something out of the corner of your eye and you turn to get a closer look, taking you into the Class C airspace. 100% legal.

Now, substitute Class B for Class C, and you're likely to get a number to call.

 

[flyingron]

Yep...let's say you're tooling around just outside a Class C, and you're talking to Approach. It's a sightseeing flight, but no real plan as to where you're going. You catch something out of the corner of your eye and you turn to get a closer look, taking you into the Class C airspace. 100% legal.

Now, substitute Class B for Class C, and you're likely to get a number to call.

My point exactly.

 

[Palmpilot]

Very good explanations, IMO.

 

[bflynn]

Yes, but it's gone on for 3 pages already. Did anyone here NOT know the answer before this thread?

 

[neilki]

@ fiveoboy01
The rules are clear, and discussed above. You need to establish contact with the controlling authority (generally, the Tower) to enter the Airspace for class C or D. "Establishing Contact" is defined by your N number repeated back. Unless specifically instructed to "remain outside" you have 'permission' to enter the airspace.
C & D areas often have specific local requirements, sometimes on their ATIS, sometimes not. 2 out of the 3 C/D's i fly in every day require contact with Approach control for sequencing first, and approach will hand you off to the tower with an implicit 'permission'. One has this requirement on the ATIS, one doesn't. But they will certainly tell you if you attempt otherwise
Back to the OP's original post. A Flight Review is collaborative, not adversarial. You cannot 'fail' one, it's simply Dual Given. The AC is worth reading. I understand why a CFI who is not familiar with you could be strict, as there is a paper trail the FAA will follow should a mishap occur. Perhaps this CFI has been bitten in the past. I suggest working towards an ongoing relationship with a CFI you trust, and perhaps adding a less formal annual review. It's good for both your and their confidence. Training is always useful.
neilki

 

[Palmpilot]

Yes, but it's gone on for 3 pages already. Did anyone here NOT know the answer before this thread?

I was talking about posts 56 and 57, which I thought did a good job of clearing up some remaining confusion on why the terminology matters.

 

[NJP_MAN]

Yes, but it's gone on for 3 pages already. Did anyone here NOT know the answer before this thread?

I didn't, and if someone could just elaborate a little on class C then I might understand.

 

[Clark1961]

I didn't, and if someone could just elaborate a little on class C then I might understand.

Me too, I'm a little uncertain about Bravo airspace. I fly out of an airport that is about 6 miles from DEN so I'd like to be sure I know how Bravo works. And maybe somebody could 'splain Delta while they are at it. The home airport is Delta and perhaps a little more explanation of day-to-day operations would help. And sometimes I fly past COS so a little refresher on Charlie airspace would be good.

Have I missed anything?

 

[VictorValencia]

Class D - establish communication with the tower. Just calling the tower is sufficient. They don't have to answer in order to enter.
BullPoop. "Each person must establish two-way radio communications

I stand corrected. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[FlySince9]

VOR intercepts under the hood for a BFR? I thought it was weird getting a hernia check for a class III... That seems more like a prostate exam...

 

[flyingron]

VOR intercepts under the hood for a BFR? I thought it was weird getting a hernia check for a class III... That seems more like a prostate exam...

If the CFI says "turn your head and cough" he's outa there.

 

[azure]

VOR intercepts under the hood for a BFR? I thought it was weird getting a hernia check for a class III... That seems more like a prostate exam...

I say, kudos to the CFI... with the exception of my initial Cardinal RG checkout, prior to getting my instrument rating I don't recall ANY hood work being required on BFRs. With loss of control in marginal conditions being a major contributor to fatal accidents by PPs, I say the more instrument brush-up CFIs build into their recurrent training curricula, the better.

 

[FlySince9]

I say, kudos to the CFI... with the exception of my initial Cardinal RG checkout, prior to getting my instrument rating I don't recall ANY hood work being required on BFRs. With loss of control in marginal conditions being a major contributor to fatal accidents by PPs, I say the more instrument brush-up CFIs build into their recurrent training curricula, the better.

Besides the BFR, I fly with an instructor once or twice a year just to make sure I'm not picking up any bad habits. That's where I would expect to cover stuff like that. Not at a BFR. And if the instructor does drop that on you, it shouldn't be cause for an unsat! The BFR is a teaching tool as well as a review of your proficiency. It should not be a "hold my beer and watch this" event...

 

[azure]

Besides the BFR, I fly with an instructor once or twice a year just to make sure I'm not picking up any bad habits. That's where I would expect to cover stuff like that. Not at a BFR. And if the instructor does drop that on you, it shouldn't be cause for an unsat! The BFR is a teaching tool as well as a review of your proficiency. It should not be a "hold my beer and watch this" event...

I beg to differ. The point of the flight portion of a BFR is to make sure you're still flying to PTS standards. Basic instrument maneuvers, unusual attitudes, intercepting and tracking, are part of the PPL PTS standards IIRC. I think they're fair game.

 

[TheGolfPilot]

This thread reminds me of my first experience flying through class B IFR. I got my IR rating in New Mexico and had 0 experience with class B. I was flying to Half Moon Bay airport and as I was about to enter the Class B airspace I got worried that I hadn't received clearance into the Class B yet. I asked for clearance. I'm not sure what that controller thought of me at that point but they politely told me I didn't need a clearance to enter because I was IFR.
It was pretty embarrasing that I missed that info in training..

 

[acrophile]

I say, kudos to the CFI[. W]ith the exception of my initial Cardinal RG checkout, prior to getting my instrument rating I don't recall ANY hood work being required on BFRs.

I strongly agree. Basic instrument flying is a vital part of the PP PTS even for non-instrument pilots. No private pilot should pass a Flight Review without being able demonstrate basic instrument competence. In between Flight Reviews, responsible pilots should ground themselves (except in foolproof VMC) if they haven't been maintaining their instrument proficiency (which is very easy to do with a PC simulator).

 

[RotorDude]

I say, kudos to the CFI... with the exception of my initial Cardinal RG checkout, prior to getting my instrument rating I don't recall ANY hood work being required on BFRs. With loss of control in marginal conditions being a major contributor to fatal accidents by PPs, I say the more instrument brush-up CFIs build into their recurrent training curricula, the better.

Also agree strongly with this. Accident statistics involving VFR-only pilots flying into IIMC are common, so addressing this major scenario on the BFR is logical and admirable.

 

[N801BH]

Also agree strongly with this. Accident statistics involving VFR-only pilots flying into IIMC are common, so addressing this major scenario on the BFR is logical and admirable.

I have had 17 BFR's since I started flying 35 years ago.. Not once have I turned down a CFI's request to do some hood time.. After all, it is for my own good...

 

[Sac Arrow]

as a VFR pilot, C and D airspace requires only that communications with the tower is established before entering.

The only real issue I have with your response is that you need to be in communication with the "jurisdictional ATC Authority" (91.129, 91.130) which could be the tower, but it also could be the sector approach (as will be the case in class C.)

You would normally call a Class D tower directly for transit or landing, although you could call approach first via Flight Following. For transit or landing in Class C, you will always call approach first, and you probably won't get handed off to tower if you are just transiting.

 

[MAKG1]

You would normally call a Class D tower directly for transit or landing, although you could call approach first via Flight Following. For transit or landing in Class C, you will always call approach first, and you probably won't get handed off to tower if you are just transiting.

That's a local procedure, but Approach knows what that is and will coordinate the handoffs.

I transited San Jose yesterday, from Reid to Palo Alto and back, and never talked to NorCal. Just four different towers, at 2000 feet coming and 1500 going. And they all coordinated handoffs like they are supposed to.

The thing is, when you're under flight following, none of this is truly relevant.

Example: I'm inside San Jose Class C approaching Moffett Class D. Which one do I talk to? Answer: I do what the handoff says. Stay with San Jose Tower until handed off, which occurs miles before the D boundary. If I'm in doubt, I can request a frequency change (which might be denied, but I've never heard it happen).

Things are different when you're in contact with ATC. It's when you're on your own that all this becomes important.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Things are different when you're in contact with ATC. It's when you're on your own that all this becomes important.

Agreed.

 

[steingar]

I think I would very politely show the errant CFI the relevant parts of the FAR/AIM before very impolitely firing him for being a dumbass. I'd rather not have some numb nuts CFI telling all the local pilots the wrong thing. Could make flights in the area more interesting than they otherwise need to be.

 

[nimdabew]

I beg to differ. The point of the flight portion of a BFR is to make sure you're still flying to PTS standards. Basic instrument maneuvers, unusual attitudes, intercepting and tracking, are part of the PPL PTS standards IIRC. I think they're fair game.

Ehh, no. A flight review is a flight instructors chance to do flight instruction with a pilot once every two years. There are no standards that the student had to meet. There is even a section in the Flight Review Handbook, HERE , that is about managing expectations. There is no requirement for meeting pts stanrs, there is no requirement for covering ANY topic. There is just the minimum one hour of ground, one hour of flight training. There are suggestions for topics to cover in the flight review handbook.

 

[MAKG1]

there is no requirement for covering ANY topic.

That's a bit overstated.

See 14 CFR 61.56(a)(1).

There is wide latitude given to the instructor, but it's true that PTS is not required for a BFR. Safety, however, is required.

And the PTS is indeed fair game under 61.56, and it is very widely used. It's just not required for the instructor to use. The reg clearly places the choice in the instructor's lap, not the PIC's.

Several of the posters in this thread need to reread the reg, as Class A does not always require an instrument clearance. See 14 CFR 91.135(d). It does always require a clearance of some sort, except under 14 CFR 91.3(b) (e.g., a strong mountain wave encounter).