Reporting your position

jspilot

jspilot

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jspilot
Went flying today and it was a pretty busy day with lots of planes flying. Was cruising around and heard an interessting exchange between a pilot and ATC. The pilot called up and gave his position as "over captree bridge" a well used reporting point. After about 10 seconds the controller replied and said, "you are like 6 miles east of the bridge," and then gave the guy a hard time about reporting his position inaccurately.

I thought nothing of this at the time but after I landed, I started to wonder how the controller knew the pilot was off on his position. Plus, obviously if the controller was still able to identify the plane despite the pilots inaccurate report I started to think how important it is to be right on with your position report. Guess this is another case of the all knowing voice in the sky.
 
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If "ATC" equals Tower in this case, probably a remote radar repeater mounted in the Tower cab.

Local controller looks up at the monitor for a secondary target squawking 1200 near the checkpoint and doesn't see one, so has to go hunting around the scope a bit looking for something generally inbound in that general vicinity.
 
P.S. Call your local Tower and talk to the manager and see what it'd take to schedule a visit up there sometime. It really fills in the blanks if you can visit during a time when there's a bit of traffic and really watch what they're doing, even if you have to tune out the nice "tour speech" the escort is giving. ;)
 
Sorry- correction- ATC in this case was not tower, it was approach control
 
jspilot said:
Went flying today and it was a pretty busy day with lots of planes flying. Was cruising around and heard an interessting exchange between a pilot and ATC. The pilot called up and gave his position as "over captree bridge" a well used reporting point. After about 10 seconds the controller replied and said, "you are like 6 miles east of the bridge," and then gave the guy a hard time about reporting his position inaccurately.

I thought nothing of this at the time but after I landed, I started to wonder how the controller knew the pilot was off on his position. Plus, obviously if the controller was still able to identify the plane despite the pilots inaccurate report I started to think how important it is to be right on with your position report. Guess this is another case of the all knowing voice in the sky.
Click to expand...

Captree Bridge is a charted VFR checkpoint, it's probably also on the radar video map. The controller likely assigned a discrete code and observed that code pop up six miles east of the bridge. Assuming the pilot wasn't in Class C airspace when he called it's hardly worth getting worked up over.
 
jspilot said:
Sorry- correction- ATC in this case was not tower, it was approach control
Click to expand...

There's the answer, the TRACON had him on radar. Even if ATC doesn't have you tagged, you still show up as a blip on the screen.
 
Ah okay, pretty much the same deal. Controller had to hunt around the scope to find the guy and tag him with the trackball and keyboard.

Basically bad position reports kinda waste their time, is all. And lots of folks leave out helpful stuff at call-up, like altitude. If there's two targets overlaid in a particular location with plenty of separation by altitude, including the three dimensional in your position report really helps on the other end of the radio.

It helps a bit to imagine what your call up basically triggers the person on the other end to do.

They have to find you, ID you (which requires verbal confirmation of your altitude and giving you the local altimeter setting), tag you up on the screen, or not (if they are unable to provide VFR services, because they have a fur-ball going on, they probably won't even look for you, you'll get a "stand-by" if they think they can get ahead enough later to take you, or an "Cessna XXX, remain VFR, unable" or similar.) and if they've spilt the sector or similar and you're calling them on the published frequency, they may also have to call on the internal line or talk to a nearby controller and coordinate an immediate handoff to them after pointing you out to them, "I have a Cessna there over the bridge, can you take him? Okay, I'll tag him, code 4201. Thanks."

Initial callups create a small flurry of activity on the other end. Some controllers prefer the "Cessna XXX, request" back and forth with multiple transmissions, most seem to like getting it done in one solid info-laden call. Depends on the controller and of course, their workload, how much coffee they've had today, etc. :)

I remember one controller saying, "Cessna over X, I really appreciated that excellent call-up, but I completely missed it. Say again?" It was nighttime and I think he was pretty bored. We joked and bantered a bit, which is always fun when circumstances allow.

My favorites are the super-sharp cookies that can catch your entire call up, complete that activity on their end and reply with a full clearance in about three seconds flat becaus they're having a really "on" day. Usually happens when traffic is high but not so high they're "going down the tubes". Kinda like a pilot flying something challenging, they seem to naturally step up to the challenge. Fun to listen to, too. Busy busy.

You can usually hear it in their voice when you've become a pain in their butt, too. Probably what you heard in the response to that other pilot. :)
 
flightwriter said:
There's the answer, the TRACON had him on radar. Even if ATC doesn't have you tagged, you still show up as a blip on the screen.
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Yeah that's what I figured based on my basic understanding of how the Air traffic control system works. I was curious how he could tell which of the blips was the blip calling him at the time. I guess maybe he was the only plane near by at the time. Thanks to all the helpful replies for indulging my curiosity and helping me better understand how the system works.
 
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jspilot said:
Yeah that's what I figured based on my basic understanding of how the Air traffic control system works. I was curious how he could tell which of the blips was the blip calling home at the time. I guess maybe he was the only plane near by at the time. Thanks for indulging my curiosity.
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Technically, he can't. Not until he's positively ID'd you. There's a whole set of rules they have to follow for that on call-up.

Next time you're on VFR flight following and get handed off to a new sector, especially of it is across a border between two Centers, listen carefully and don't give your altitude on the initial call-up.

You'll probably hear a slight twinge of annoyance in the immediate, "Cessna XXX, I show you at seven thousand fife-hundred, YYY altimeter is two Niner Niner two."

It helps a bit to know their rules.

Another one you'll almost always get an on-air "thank you" for if flying with VFR services inside a TRACON landing at an airport inside the TRACON -- is letting the Approach controller know you have the destination airport ATIS and letter, about 15 miles out or so.

I don't know if it's in their rules that they must confirm at the TRACON, but if you don't give it to them, you'll always get "Cessna XXX, airport 12 o'clock, 15 miles, information Zulu is current."

I think they're required to confirm it for IFR traffic being vectored to final, so it flows better if VFR pilots offer it up.

You give the ATIS and they'll never make that call... You'll truck right up to the edge of the Delta airspace and get a "Contact ZZZ Tower now, 118.9".

I assume it's because since you're tagged up, the Tower knows you're coming and the information is added to your datablock on the screen, but haven't really asked any controllers about that one. Sometimes you're asked by the Tower if you have the ATIS again, sometimes they seem to already know from the TRACON. How that info flows, I'm uncertain, but it does sometimes.

Stephen (roncachamp) might jump in here to comment on that one, since he's a Tower guy.
 
3−10−1. LANDING INFORMATION
Provide current landing information, as appropriate,
to arriving aircraft. Landing information contained in
the ATIS broadcast may be omitted if the pilot states
the appropriate ATIS code. Runway, wind, and
altimeter may be omitted if a pilot uses the phrase
“have numbers.” Issue landing information by
including the following:
NOTE−
Pilot use of “have numbers” does not indicate receipt of the
ATIS broadcast.​


a.
Specific traffic pattern information (may be
omitted if the aircraft is to circle the airport to the left).
​
​
PHRASEOLOGY−
ENTER LEFT/RIGHT BASE.
STRAIGHT−IN.
MAKE STRAIGHT−IN.
STRAIGHT−IN APPROVED.
RIGHT TRAFFIC.
MAKE RIGHT TRAFFIC.
RIGHT TRAFFIC APPROVED. CONTINUE.
b. ​

​

Runway in use.
​
​
c. ​

​

Surface wind.
​
​
d. ​

​

Altimeter setting.
​
​
REFERENCE−
FAAO JO 7110.65, Para 2−7−1, Current Settings.​

e. Any supplementary information

Controllers don't want to have to issue all this crap to every pilot coming in. Not to mention a big reason for having th ATIS is to reduce freq congestion.
​
​
​
​

​
 
Understand, but the controller affected most by that rule is the Tower, not the TRACON.

I was saying I've always found TRACON thinks you're some kind of on the ball genius if you're VFR and you tell them you have the ATIS info long before they're handing you off to the Tower.

And how the Tower finds out you did, seems inconsistent but sometimes they know, sometimes they ask you to confirm it again.
 
denverpilot said:
Understand, but the controller affected most by that rule is the Tower, not the TRACON.

I was saying I've always found TRACON thinks you're some kind of on the ball genius if you're VFR and you tell them you have the ATIS info long before they're handing you off to the Tower.

And how the Tower finds out you did, seems inconsistent but sometimes they know, sometimes they ask you to confirm it again.
Click to expand...

Either way the controller has to get it out of them. Whether that's the approach controller or the tower controller. If not then someone has to issue all that arrival information. I used to fly into the Class C of Savannah and Pensacola and they always told me to report back with the ATIS if I didn't have it.

As a approach controller (RAPCON) in the military I always listened if the aircraft checked in with the ATIS. Of course 99% of my arrivals were IFR and fell under an Arrival Information requirement in the 7110.65, if I had any VFR guys I made sure they at least had "the numbers" prior to switching to tower. If they didn't then I'd tell tower hey this guy didn't report the ATIS or hey I didn't have time to give this guy arrival info.
 
Six miles is a bit of distance to be off, now also there is a chance he busted Class C airspace. Now if he was the only one in the area, of course approach can tell who he is without a sqwak. I know this area well, if he was south of the shoreline he would have been good, and probably blended in with all the other aircraft there, but north of the beach you do t find much traffic just flying around on thier own.
 
If you have a Mode S transponder they can see your aircraft type and N-number automatically (at least at the newer Raytheon STARS sites, not sure about the old Lockheed Martin ARTS sites). With Mode C they can only see altitude and squawk code.

denverpilot said:
If "ATC" equals Tower in this case, probably a remote radar repeater mounted in the Tower cab.
Click to expand...

Most towers don't have radar repeaters, but do have a direct T1 line from the TRACON that provides the radar data for their sector and displays it on a scope. Towers at huge airports without a local TRACON (i.e. JFK, BOS) do have the radar repeaters you mentioned in case they lose their connection with the TRACON. Some towers depend on binoculars and position reports (i.e. ORH).
 
MassPilot said:
Most towers don't have radar repeaters, but do have a direct T1 line from the TRACON that provides the radar data for their sector and displays it on a scope. Towers at huge airports without a local TRACON (i.e. JFK, BOS) do have the radar repeaters you mentioned in case they lose their connection with the TRACON. Some towers depend on binoculars and position reports (i.e. ORH).
Click to expand...

Yeah, I was just using it as a generic term. The OP probably doesn't care how it gets to the display in the Tower cab, but some of us do find it fascinating, since there's some engineering thought behind it depending on the facility needs. ;)
 
jspilot said:
Went flying today and it was a pretty busy day with lots of planes flying. Was cruising around and heard an interessting exchange between a pilot and ATC. The pilot called up and gave his position as "over captree bridge" a well used reporting point. After about 10 seconds the controller replied and said, "you are like 6 miles east of the bridge," and then gave the guy a hard time about reporting his position inaccurately.

I thought nothing of this at the time but after I landed, I started to wonder how the controller knew the pilot was off on his position. Plus, obviously if the controller was still able to identify the plane despite the pilots inaccurate report I started to think how important it is to be right on with your position report. Guess this is another case of the all knowing voice in the sky.
Click to expand...

When I was a student pilot my long-solo included a stop at Lafayette. The conversation went like this:
Me: "Purdue Tower Skyhawk blahblah 10 miles east inbound for touch and goes with oscar"
CT: "Skyhawk blahblah Purdue Tower by east do you mean west?"
Me: "Purdue Tower Skyhawk blahblah that'd be the right one."
CT: "Anything else?"
Me: "Student pilot."
CT: audible chuckling
 
Apache123 said:
When I was a student pilot my long-solo included a stop at Lafayette. The conversation went like this:
Me: "Purdue Tower Skyhawk blahblah 10 miles east inbound for touch and goes with oscar"
CT: "Skyhawk blahblah Purdue Tower by east do you mean west?"
Me: "Purdue Tower Skyhawk blahblah that'd be the right one."
CT: "Anything else?"
Me: "Student pilot."
CT: audible chuckling
Click to expand...

Hey I am no longer a student and still occasionally mix up my position, and listening to the ATC here in SW Florida I can guarantee you I am not the only one.

Doug
 
"Approach, Skyhawk 1161F is.....uhhhhh..........about 93 million miles directly under the earths sun"

"Skyhawk 1161F, radar contact 92.95 million miles directly under the earths sun"
 
Used to be a controller down in Charlottesville who would regularly argue with pilots about where they were. I mean, I could look down and see I was over the town of Ruckersville, and she still would give me grief about that. She would argue distances with pilots. If she knew so well where we were, why did she ask?
 
DavidWhite said:
"Approach, Skyhawk 1161F is.....uhhhhh..........about 93 million miles directly under the earths sun"

"Skyhawk 1161F, radar contact 92.95 million miles directly under the earths sun"
Click to expand...

My favorite was Frank Burns on the old mash when they were broken down in the field and he had a walkie-talkie and transmitted into the blind:

Burns: There are many stars in the sky and I'm directly under the brightest of them.

Hawkeye: Great, they'll start looking for us in Bethlehem.
 
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