Repairing a home build

Geico266 said:
read what Tony posted. ;)

(b) This part does not apply to—

(1) Any aircraft for which the FAA has issued an experimental certificate, unless the FAA has previously issued a different kind of airworthiness certificate for that aircraft; or

(2) Any aircraft for which the FAA has issued an experimental certificate under the provisions of § 21.191 (i)(3) of this chapter, and the aircraft was previously issued a special airworthiness certificate in the light-sport category under the provisions of § 21.190 of this chapter.

Opps! Henning beat me to it.
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Nope that doesn't work for record keeping see

91.417 Maintenance records.
(a) Except for work performed in accordance with §§ 91.411 and 91.413, each registered owner or operator shall keep the following records for the periods specified in paragraph (b) of this section:

(1) Records of the maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alteration and records of the 100-hour, annual, progressive, and other required or approved inspections, as appropriate, for each aircraft (including the airframe) and each engine, propeller, rotor, and appliance of an aircraft. The records must include—

(i) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the Administrator) of the work performed; and

(ii) The date of completion of the work performed; and

(iii) The signature, and certificate number of the person approving the aircraft for return to service.

(2) Records containing the following information:

(i) The total time in service of the airframe, each engine, each propeller, and each rotor.

(ii) The current status of life-limited parts of each airframe, engine, propeller, rotor, and appliance.

(iii) The time since last overhaul of all items installed on the aircraft which are required to be overhauled on a specified time basis.

(iv) The current inspection status of the aircraft, including the time since the last inspection required by the inspection program under which the aircraft and its appliances are maintained.

(v) The current status of applicable airworthiness directives (AD) and safety directives including, for each, the method of compliance, the AD or safety directive number and revision date. If the AD or safety directive involves recurring action, the time and date when the next action is required.

(vi) Copies of the forms prescribed by § 43.9(d) of this chapter for each major alteration to the airframe and currently installed engines, rotors, propellers, and appliances.

(b) The owner or operator shall retain the following records for the periods prescribed:

(1) The records specified in paragraph (a)(1) of this section shall be retained until the work is repeated or superseded by other work or for 1 year after the work is performed.

(2) The records specified in paragraph (a)(2) of this section shall be retained and transferred with the aircraft at the time the aircraft is sold.

(3) A list of defects furnished to a registered owner or operator under § 43.11 of this chapter shall be retained until the defects are repaired and the aircraft is approved for return to service.

(c) The owner or operator shall make all maintenance records required to be kept by this section available for inspection by the Administrator or any authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB). In addition, the owner or operator shall present Form 337 described in paragraph (d) of this section for inspection upon request of any law enforcement officer.

(d) When a fuel tank is installed within the passenger compartment or a baggage compartment pursuant to part 43 of this chapter, a copy of FAA Form 337 shall be kept on board the modified aircraft by the owner or operator.

Now the question becomes, how does any one make the entries that are required by PART 91, to the maintenance records of an EXP-AB aircraft with out the proper certificates?

Remember FAR part 43 is maintenance, FAR part 91 is for us all.
 
Tom-D said:
Nope that doesn't work for record keeping see

91.417 Maintenance records.
(a) Except for work performed in accordance with §§ 91.411 and 91.413, each registered owner or operator shall keep the following records for the periods specified in paragraph (b) of this section:
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What part of it being the Owner Operators responsibility, not yours, are you missing? On an Experimental AB the O/O can make all the repair, modification and maintenance entries, everything except the only excluded item which is the condition inspection.
 
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Henning said:
What part of it being the Owner Operators responsibility, not yours, are you missing? On an Experimental AB the O/O can make all the repair entries, everything except the only excluded item which is the condition inspection.
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you should keep reading.


(iii) The signature, and certificate number of the person approving the aircraft for return to service.

and remember the question asked in post #17
 
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Tom-D said:
you should keep reading.


(iii) The signature, and certificate number of the person approving the aircraft for return to service.

and remember the question.
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None required for an experimental, go back to the rules.

Why is it when you ask these questions and you are the only one that comes up with another response do you keep seeking the answer here when you have a PMI to ask?
 
Henning said:
None required for an experimental, go back to the rules.

Why is it when you ask these questions and you are the only one that comes up with another response do you keep seeking the answer here when you have a PMI to ask?
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Because asking FSDO the obvious isn't what they are for.

Show me how you exempt the home built from complying with FAR 91.
 
AFAIK, the only "required and approved inspections" for an EAB is the annual condition inspection which the builder can do and sign off given they have taken the two day school and got their certificate. But I can be wrong unlike others in this thread. ;)

Cheers
 
X3 Skier said:
AFAIK, the only "required and approved inspections" for an EAB is the annual condition inspection which the builder can do and sign off given they have taken the two day school and got their certificate. But I can be wrong unlike others in this thread. ;)

Cheers
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I believe the 2 days school applies to light sport. I've never heard of a 2 day school that will get you a repairman's certificate for EXP-AB aircraft.
 
Tom-D said:
I believe the 2 days school applies to light sport. I've never heard of a 2 day school that will get you a repairman's certificate for EXP-AB aircraft.
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I stand corrected but I suppose a LSA like the RV-12 and Zenith Zodiac are a subset of EAB. I thought the school was for any EAB provided it was used to do the condition inspection on the one the certificate holder personally built.

Cheers
 
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X3 Skier said:
I stand corrected but I suppose a LSA like the RV-12 and Zenith Zodiac are a subset of EAB. I thought the school was for any EAB provided it was used to do the condition inspection on the one the certificate holder personally built.

Cheers
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Does the RV 12 qualify for LSA ?

I think it is too fast.
 
Tom-D said:
Does the RV 12 qualify for LSA ?

I think it is too fast.
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It does if you build it according to Vans plans. I have their brochure and it clearly says it is a LSA. Of course it you deviate, it can be what you want it to be.

Cheers
 
X3 Skier said:
It does if you build it according to Vans plans. I have their brochure and it clearly says it is a LSA. Of course it you deviate, it can be what you want it to be.

Cheers
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I didn't realize it could be built different ways.
 
Tom-D said:
I believe the 2 days school applies to light sport. I've never heard of a 2 day school that will get you a repairman's certificate for EXP-AB aircraft.
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X3 Skier said:
I stand corrected but I suppose a LSA like the RV-12 and Zenith Zodiac are a subset of EAB. I thought the school was for any EAB provided it was used to do the condition inspection on the one the certificate holder personally built.

Cheers
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The 2 day school is required to get the repairman's certificate even if you built the LSA. It is only for LSA, but it is not limited to the builder. Any owner can take the 2 day course and do the condition inspection.
 
Tom-D said:
I didn't realize it could be built different ways.
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If you deviate from the plans for LSA, you can build it EAB. Putting a different panel, engine, ect.

Several builders I know are flying them with the new Viking engine from Eggenfellner.

Van himself built his RV-12 EAB because he wanted to tinker with the approved design.

Understand, any EAB can still be flown under sport pilot if it meets the criteria.
 
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Tom-D said:
I didn't realize it could be built different ways.
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Any kit can be built anyway you want to and it is your neck when flying. :eek:

But if you follow the plans for a LSA Kit you will get a LSA.

Cheers
 
Geico266 said:
The 2 day school is required to get the repairman's certificate even if you built the LSA. It is only for LSA, but it is not limited to the builder. Any owner can take the 2 day course and do the condition inspection.
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Thanks, that's good to know. I see the operative word is "owner", whether or not they built it. I also understand if you pass the 120 hour course, you can do maintenance and inspections of any Special or Experimental LSA including working for hire.

Cheers
 
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Tom-D said:
Most of the people who have the tools and materials to repair home builts are the person who built it, an A&P or FBO.

If you were an A&P would you want to take on the liability of working on a home built?
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No I would not, However I have assets, my advise to any owner is find a good A&P with no assets, or insurance, maybe an old man who does not care and wants cash, you maybe get the picture. remember there is lots of hipe and missrepresentation plus poor workmanship with lots of home-builts, do not believe what you read in sport aviation.
 
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LSA repairman and EAB repairman are different.

65.104

(a) To be eligible for a repairman certificate (experimental aircraft builder), an individual must—

(1) Be at least 18 years of age;

(2) Be the primary builder of the aircraft to which the privileges of the certificate are applicable;

(3) Show to the satisfaction of the Administrator that the individual has the requisite skill to determine whether the aircraft is in a condition for safe operations; and

(4) Be a citizen of the United States or an individual citizen of a foreign country who has lawfully been admitted for permanent residence in the United States.

(b) The holder of a repairman certificate (experimental aircraft builder) may perform condition inspections on the aircraft constructed by the holder in accordance with the operating limitations of that aircraft.

(c) Section 65.103 does not apply to the holder of a repairman certificate (experimental aircraft builder) while performing under that certificate.


-VanDy
 
LSA repairman certificate ( yes there is some overlap) if I build a 4 place 250kt homebuilt I can get a repairman cert to perform conditional inspection on it and it alone. SOME EAB do fit LSA criteria.

65.107
To be eligible forYou must
(1) A repairman certificate (light-sport aircraft)(i) Be at least 18 years old,
(ii) Be able to read, speak, write, and understand English. If for medical reasons you cannot meet one of these requirements, the FAA may place limits on your repairman certificate necessary to safely perform the actions authorized by the certificate and rating,
 (iii) Demonstrate the requisite skill to determine whether a light-sport aircraft is in a condition for safe operation, and
 (iv) Be a citizen of the United States, or a citizen of a foreign country who has been lawfully admitted for permanent residence in the United States.
(2) A repairman certificate (light-sport aircraft) with an inspection rating(i) Meet the requirements of paragraph (a)(1) of this section, and
(ii) Complete a 16-hour training course acceptable to the FAA on inspecting the particular class of experimental light-sport aircraft for which you intend to exercise the privileges of this rating.
(3) A repairman certificate (light-sport aircraft) with a maintenance rating(i) Meet the requirements of paragraph (a)(1) of this section, and
 (ii) Complete a training course acceptable to the FAA on maintaining the particular class of light-sport aircraft for which you intend to exercise the privileges of this rating. The training course must, at a minimum, provide the following number of hours of instruction:
 (A) For airplane class privileges—120-hours,
 (B) For weight-shift control aircraft class privileges—104 hours,
 (C) For powered parachute class privileges—104 hours,
 (D) For lighter than air class privileges—80 hours,
 (E) For glider class privileges—80 hours.



-VanDy
 
I believe either of these certificates are what the FAA is talking about when they placed that in FAR 91.417 (iii)
 
43.3 Persons authorized to perform maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, and alterations

As already notes 43 doesn't apply to homebuilts, so there is no restriction as to who can perform the maint, they sign off the work iaw part 91 leaving the cert number portion blank.



Tom-D said:
Nope that doesn't work for record keeping see

91.417 Maintenance records.
(a) Except for work performed in accordance with §§ 91.411 and 91.413, each registered owner or operator shall keep the following records for the periods specified in paragraph (b) of this section:

(1) Records of the maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alteration and records of the 100-hour, annual, progressive, and other required or approved inspections, as appropriate, for each aircraft (including the airframe) and each engine, propeller, rotor, and appliance of an aircraft. The records must include—

(i) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the Administrator) of the work performed; and

(ii) The date of completion of the work performed; and

(iii) The signature, and certificate number of the person approving the aircraft for return to service.

(2) Records containing the following information:

(i) The total time in service of the airframe, each engine, each propeller, and each rotor.

(ii) The current status of life-limited parts of each airframe, engine, propeller, rotor, and appliance.

(iii) The time since last overhaul of all items installed on the aircraft which are required to be overhauled on a specified time basis.

(iv) The current inspection status of the aircraft, including the time since the last inspection required by the inspection program under which the aircraft and its appliances are maintained.

(v) The current status of applicable airworthiness directives (AD) and safety directives including, for each, the method of compliance, the AD or safety directive number and revision date. If the AD or safety directive involves recurring action, the time and date when the next action is required.

(vi) Copies of the forms prescribed by § 43.9(d) of this chapter for each major alteration to the airframe and currently installed engines, rotors, propellers, and appliances.

(b) The owner or operator shall retain the following records for the periods prescribed:

(1) The records specified in paragraph (a)(1) of this section shall be retained until the work is repeated or superseded by other work or for 1 year after the work is performed.

(2) The records specified in paragraph (a)(2) of this section shall be retained and transferred with the aircraft at the time the aircraft is sold.

(3) A list of defects furnished to a registered owner or operator under § 43.11 of this chapter shall be retained until the defects are repaired and the aircraft is approved for return to service.

(c) The owner or operator shall make all maintenance records required to be kept by this section available for inspection by the Administrator or any authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB). In addition, the owner or operator shall present Form 337 described in paragraph (d) of this section for inspection upon request of any law enforcement officer.

(d) When a fuel tank is installed within the passenger compartment or a baggage compartment pursuant to part 43 of this chapter, a copy of FAA Form 337 shall be kept on board the modified aircraft by the owner or operator.

Now the question becomes, how does any one make the entries that are required by PART 91, to the maintenance records of an EXP-AB aircraft with out the proper certificates?

Remember FAR part 43 is maintenance, FAR part 91 is for us all.
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-VanDy
 
steingar said:
Ron Wanttaja has published several excellent articles about EX/AB safety and root causes of accidents. His work has shown that there is indeed an uptick in the EX/AB category from misbuilt/misrepaired aircraft.
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It's an interesting week...I've had two cases where folks have requested slicing of the data in a way I haven't done before.

The trouble is (in both cases) I haven't set up my database with details as specific as folks would like. But I think I can get close.

My database shows 118 out of 2733 cases where mistakes by a maintainer were the main cause of the accident (4.3%).

Looking through the Probable Causes, there were seven cases where an improper repair was mentioned:

IAD99FA023 Revolution MINI 500 the improper repair of the engine following a previous engine seizure which resulted in the loss of engine power over unsuitable terrain.

LAX00LA182 Rutan Long-EZ The pilot's failure to maintain runway alignment and directional control during a crosswind landing that resulted in a touchdown off the runway surface in soft sand. A factor in the accident was an earlier improper repair, which weakened the landing gear strut.

MIA02LA022 Rans S-10 Sakota The failure of the pilot to maintain airspeed following loss of engine power resulting in the airplane stalling and entering a spin from which it crashed. Factors in the accident was improper repair of the front cylinder intake manifold seal by the pilot after a prior accident which resulted in seizure of the front piston in the cylinder and failure of the engine and the pilots use of Alprazolam, a drug which has adverse effects on pilot performance.

LAX02LA263 Rutan Varieze the loss of engine power caused by fuel exhaustion due to a fuel tank leak. Also causal was the inadequate maintenance performed on the repair of the fuel tank by unknown maintenance personnel.

MIA03LA139 Velocity The improper repair of the crankshaft by a FAA Certified Repair Station resulting in fatigue failure and subsequent total loss of engine power. A factor in the accident was the rough/uneven terrain encountered by the pilot during the landing roll in a field.

WPR09LA153 Vans RV-6 A total loss of engine power due to oil starvation as a result of a leak from the inadequate weld repair of a high-pressure oil line. Also causal was the pilot's failure to maintain adequate airspeed while maneuvering that resulted in a stall during an attempted off-field landing and the pilot's decision to continue flight with a known discrepancy.

CEN10CA481 Vans RV-6A The canopy opening shortly after takeoff due to an inadequate repair and subsequent failure of the canopy latch, resulting in a emergency landing. Contributing to the accident was the lack of available runway remaining for the forced landing.

My search term was "repair" in the NTSB probable cause; if previous damage being repaired was in the Narrative, my search would have missed.

As you see, no cases of an improper repair to the airframe came up. Four out of the seven cases were engine-related, one of which blamed an FAA repair station.

Ron Wanttaja
 
wanttaja said:
My database shows 118 out of 2733 cases where mistakes by a maintainer were the main cause of the accident (4.3%).
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Just out of curiosity, I looked up the same stat for my 10-year sample of Cessna 172/210 accidents: About half that of homebuilts, 2.2%. My homebuilt database covers 13 years, so one can speculate that roughly 60 crashes over 13 years were due to mistakes made my amateur maintainers. That's less than five per year.

Ron Wanttaja
 
VanDy said:
43.3 Persons authorized to perform maintenance, preventive maintenance, rebuilding, and alterations

As already notes 43 doesn't apply to homebuilts, so there is no restriction as to who can perform the maint, they sign off the work iaw part 91 leaving the cert number portion blank.


-VanDy
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OK any body can work on it, where do we find authorization to deviate from 91.417 (iii) and leave off the

(iii) The signature, and certificate number of the person approving the aircraft for return to service.
 
X3 Skier said:
I stand corrected but I suppose a LSA like the RV-12 and Zenith Zodiac are a subset of EAB. I thought the school was for any EAB provided it was used to do the condition inspection on the one the certificate holder personally built.

Cheers
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E-AB is one set of rules for an aircraft certificate.

E-LSA (and S-LSA) is a different set of rules for an aircraft certificate. The so called 51% rule is one of the big differences along with the repairman certificate thing.

LSA is a definition of the requirements for an aircraft flown under sport pilot rules. That definition does not include how the aircraft is certificated so it includes E-LSA, S-LSA, E-AB, Standard, etc. aircraft. - all of which have different rules for maintenance.
 
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