renting in Palo Alto

chucky

chucky

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Chucky
I'm going to be spending a few weeks in Palo Alto next month, and I'd like to take some time to fly. I've scouted out KPAO, and the last time I was up there I visited the Sundance Flying Club, which did seem to meet my needs rather well, but I'm wondering if people have thoughts on other options in the area. I will not have a car, but my hotel is a block from a CalTrain station, so I'm somewhat mobile. Since I'm applying for jobs out there, I may be interested in the options out there in a more permanent way before too long.
 
chucky said:
I'm going to be spending a few weeks in Palo Alto next month, and I'd like to take some time to fly. I've scouted out KPAO, and the last time I was up there I visited the Sundance Flying Club, which did seem to meet my needs rather well, but I'm wondering if people have thoughts on other options in the area. I will not have a car, but my hotel is a block from a CalTrain station, so I'm somewhat mobile. Since I'm applying for jobs out there, I may be interested in the options out there in a more permanent way before too long.
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Were I going to live there, I would join the West Valley Flying Club in an instant.

http://www.wvfc.org/

They're based at 3 or 4 airports, of which KPAO is one. And, they'll do an "intro flight" for you without you needing to join the club, even if you're a commercial-multi-instrument pilot who just wants to get an IPC with the CFI of the year. That's how I ended up flying one of their DA40's. Most expensive single-engine flying I've ever done. ($175/hr for the airplane, $90/hr for Max Trescott, and California taxes on top of it. 2.8 in the air cost me nearly $1000!)

Not your average flying club, for sure - They have something like 75-100 aircraft, including many that you won't see anywhere else (Extra, Pitts, Stearman, etc.) as well as ones that are still fairly rare (mixmaster, TwinStar, etc.)

Have fun!
 
flyingcheesehead said:
They're based at 3 or 4 airports, of which KPAO is one.
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PAO, SQL, and HWD. The E16 operation closed.

Not your average flying club, for sure - They have something like 75-100 aircraft, including many that you won't see anywhere else (Extra, Pitts, Stearman, etc.) as well as ones that are still fairly rare (mixmaster, TwinStar, etc.)
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The list currently shows 60 airplanes. Looks like the Extra, Stearman, and mixmaster are gone.

http://www.wvfc.org/aircraft.html

(You have to add the fuel surcharge to those prices. I believe it's currently $7 an hour.)
 
Thanks, Kent. Yeah, I don't expect anything to be cheap in the Bay Area! I'm looking at West Valley. I'm going to get in touch with them today to see what my options as a two week visitor with them would be.

For this trip, I want to stick with what I know as much as I can - which means Warriors or Archers - but if I do move there longer term, there are so many options for different planes to fly! Maybe I'll be able to find a cheap cardboard box to live in in Oakland or somewhere, and I'll be able to afford the planes.
 
chucky said:
Thanks, Kent. Yeah, I don't expect anything to be cheap in the Bay Area! I'm looking at West Valley. I'm going to get in touch with them today to see what my options as a two week visitor with them would be.

For this trip, I want to stick with what I know as much as I can - which means Warriors or Archers - but if I do move there longer term, there are so many options for different planes to fly! Maybe I'll be able to find a cheap cardboard box to live in in Oakland or somewhere, and I'll be able to afford the planes.
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WVFC is very very overpriced.

If I were you, I'd do the 1 hour drive (depending where in the Bay Area you are) and go here: http://www.calaggieflyers.com/. It's a great operation and a great airport/area.

Also, the drive is amazing and the airport is not in the class B.

-Felix
 
sba55 said:
WVFC is very very overpriced.
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Well, I'm not expecting cheap. Their prices actually don't seem too outrageous to me compared to what I find around here. Anyway, as others have said, the Sacramento area is a bit too far for me. I won't have the kind of free time I'd need to go out there - or a car. Thanks for pointing them out, though. I'll keep then in mind for other trips, or if I end up there permanently.
 
chucky said:
Well, I'm not expecting cheap. Their prices actually don't seem too outrageous to me compared to what I find around here. Anyway, as others have said, the Sacramento area is a bit too far for me. I won't have the kind of free time I'd need to go out there - or a car. Thanks for pointing them out, though. I'll keep then in mind for other trips, or if I end up there permanently.
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Ok makes sense; I wasn't sure if you were here on vacation.

If you want something closer and you just want to rent 152/172s and such, I'd maybe look at http://www.aeroventure.com/ in Petaluma (O69). It's a bit more reasonable and a less busy airport.

Where in the Bay Area are you going to be?
 
Everskyward said:
Oh, I forgot it was Felix who was doing the driving. :D
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Hey! Davis is like 70 miles (depending on where you start of course). You can easily average 75 on I-80, so 1 hour isn't unreasonable. Unless there's traffic of course :(
 
Palmpilot said:
The list currently shows 60 airplanes. Looks like the Extra, Stearman, and mixmaster are gone.

http://www.wvfc.org/aircraft.html
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Yeah, with that many airplanes, and I think most or all of them leasebacks, there's bound to be some turnover. :(

The mixmaster doesn't surprise me, it was really ridiculously priced - On the order of $600/hr IIRC. I would be surprised if it ever got flown.

Sad to see the other two go, but at least they still have a Pitts. I also see that the DA40 I flew is up to $189/hr. They also don't have any R182's any more, nor older 182's, so those are all really expensive - The steam-gauge 182 is $170/hr, the rest are all over $200. :eek:

I think if I lived there I'd be getting to know that Citabria at KHWD really well - It's the only non-152 that's under $100/hr. I'd probably look at the Trinnie or the Mooney for long trips, they seem to have the best cost per mile. Still well over $1/nm though.

I'm once again really glad I live in Wisconsin. :yes:
 
sba55 said:
Hey! Davis is like 70 miles (depending on where you start of course). You can easily average 75 on I-80, so 1 hour isn't unreasonable. Unless there's traffic of course :(
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Don't you have to get to I-80 first from Palo Alto? I suppose a bridge across to the Nimitz highway to I-80...maybe take 680 up to I-80.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Don't you have to get to I-80 first from Palo Alto? I suppose a bridge across to the Nimitz highway to I-80...maybe take 680 up to I-80.
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Yeah, if you start in Palo Alto, 1 1/2 hours is probably more reasonable. Not sure where the OP would be coming from - East Bay-Davis or such is more like 1 though. Short for us, but we live in CA - probably a different story if you live on the East Coast!
 
sba55 said:
Ok makes sense; I wasn't sure if you were here on vacation.

If you want something closer and you just want to rent 152/172s and such, I'd maybe look at http://www.aeroventure.com/ in Petaluma (O69). It's a bit more reasonable and a less busy airport.

Where in the Bay Area are you going to be?
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RHV prices are more reasonable than PAO, and much closer than Petaluma. Hayward too, I expect.
 
Palmpilot said:
RHV prices are more reasonable than PAO, and much closer than Petaluma. Hayward too, I expect.
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Very true, and good options as well.

I very much suggest driving through Marin (and to Petaluma) at least once though if the wx is good. It's stunningly beautiful.
 
Artiom said:
I'm renting planes in Hayward from Califonia Airways. C172N is $82 dry. Very reasonable club duties - $25/month.
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I've had good experiences with California Airways. Kareem Fahmi, one of their founders, used to be a regular over on the Red Board. I've not been there in a while; it's possible he still is.
 
sba55 said:
Where in the Bay Area are you going to be?
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In Palo Alto. I'm doing some work at Stanford for a few weeks.

RHV was not on my radar, but I'll keep it in mind. Petaluma is a bit far, since I don't have a car, but I've been meaning to get up there one of these days. I'm not sure how to get to Hayward from Palo Alto without a car, but I had been thinking about that.

If I were to take a job in the Bay area, though, I might not end up living in Palo Alto, and I'm interested in hearing about these other options, especially the ones I might actually be able to afford. B)
 
chucky said:
I'm not sure how to get to Hayward from Palo Alto without a car, but I had been thinking about that.
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I took a bus from the train station to Hayward when I went there, and my instructor for the checkout dropped me back at the train station after the checkout. I think I used a cab from the train station and back the next time I rented there. I was staying in downtown San Francisco and didn't have a car.

I took Leslie to Jonesy's at Napa Valley for a steak dinner, and then we flew over her birth town of Novato.
 
chucky said:
In Palo Alto. I'm doing some work at Stanford for a few weeks.

RHV was not on my radar, but I'll keep it in mind.
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The #22 bus runs about every 15 minutes from downtown Palo Alto to a shopping center near RHV. It's about a two-hour bus ride, though.

http://www.vta.org/schedules/SC_22.html

There's a free shuttle from downtown Palo Alto that goes within walking distance of Palo Alto Airport, but it only runs during commute hours, and there's no weekend service.

http://www.cityofpaloalto.org/civica/filebank/blobdload.asp?BlobID=24006
 
gprellwitz said:
I took a bus from the train station to Hayward when I went there, and my instructor for the checkout dropped me back at the train station after the checkout. I think I used a cab from the train station and back the next time I rented there. I was staying in downtown San Francisco and didn't have a car.
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Unfortunately BART does not extend any further south than KSFO and Palo Alto is still a ways down the peninsula from there.

system-map.gif


gprellwitz said:
I took Leslie to Jonesy's at Napa Valley for a steak dinner, and then we flew over her birth town of Novato.
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Wow, Jonesy's is still there! I can remember someone taking me there in the [cough] late 1970s. I had no idea Leslie was from California!
 
West Valley is going through some serious turmoil right now. You can probably read about it on their forum at www.wvfc.org. I've just left, and I know others have too. This may not be an issue if you're just in the area for a short time.

Advantage Aviation is another club on the field at PAO, which is priced better - this is where I have moved to.

At KSQL there is Diamond Aviation that seem to only have Cessnas these days - www.ksql.com

There are clubs at Hayward and Oakland too. I think there is a very good club in Reid-Hillview in San Jose. Livermore has a couple of clubs that have some more interesting stuff - You can fly a T6 out of there, and an L-39. (Attitude Aviation).
 
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In terms of ground transportation in the area, there is CalTrain, which goes north south up and down the peninsula, from San Francisco to San Jose. SQL and PAO would both be bikeable from the CalTrain, and you can connect to BART if you wanted to get to Oakland or elsewhere. There's also the VTA in San Jose; I'm not sure how easy it would be to get to Reid-Hillview on public transit, but if you google the VTA website or use Google maps it wouldn't be too hard to figure out.

Feel free to ping me directly if there are other questions I can answer...
 
fiid. said:
West Valley is going through some serious turmoil right now. You can probably read about it on their forum at www.wvfc.org. I've just left, and I know others have too.
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All I can find is that there was a meeting on Tuesday night, and there was some sort of special assessment that 74% of members present voted for. That's "serious turmoil"? :dunno:

Any flying club will have its share of dissent. Mine has had a special meeting called by the membership within the last couple of years, too... But the issue was solved, the complainants left the club, we're doing great, even got a new airplane a few months ago.

From what I can see on the WVFC forum (not much, as a non-member) it appears that there was some financial trouble for some reason (past or upcoming?) and there was a special meeting to vote on an assessment to provide a solution. Hopefully asking for money was not the only course of action taken, but I just don't see the big problem unless the assessment was large (ie >$500 at least) or it wasn't really necessary for some reason. So, what's the problem? What prompted you to leave? Where will you be flying now?
 
For transportation, Caltrain is very easily accessible, but the trip to BART is about 45 minutes, which would have to be added on to any further travelling. Hayward seems a bit too far. Reid-Hillview might actually not be too hard with Caltrain, so I might have to keep them in mind. PAO is walkable (for me) from my hotel, which is a block from the Cal Ave Caltrain station. Strife and upheaval are things to consider for a longterm commitment to a club, certainly, but less important for two weeks, as long as there's no impact on safety. It seems unlikely that West Valley would be appropriate for such a short visit, in any case.

As I said before, I'd really like to stick to Cherokees for this trip to keep the number of new things to a minimum, but I may give California Airways a call anyway. It looks like they don't have a minimum time-in-type requirement for their fixed-gear 172s, so that might work out.

Although, as of some emails last night, I'm starting to think I might need to start a similar thread about flying out of the Boulder, CO area. First things first, though. Thanks again for all the input.
 
Fair play - I might have overstated a bit.

There has been a longstanding rift between the former GM and Director of Maintenence and some of the CFIs. About 18 months ago this culminated in a few people getting elected to the board and a bunch of changes being made, including a formal grievance process being implemented. The GM and MX Director ended up resigning. The director of MX started his own shop (West Valley Aircraft Maintenence or something, the name didn't go down well with some folks), and took most with him a good chunk of West Valley's MX business. A couple of months go by and 3 other members of the board quit and were replaced in a special election. Now the club is supposedly insolvent and needs to do a special assessment. The recovery plan hasn't been shared yet if you didn't attend the meeting. It's also not abundantly clear weather incoming members have to pay the assessment or not.

West Valley costs more than all of the for-profit clubs that it competes with, yet it has economy of scale and it's a non-profit or not-for-profit. It's also lost of most of it's interesting planes. There's still a lot of debate and animosity / politics within the club, and I get enough of that at work, I don't need it in my leisure time.

I switched to Advantage Aviation which is pretty much next door at PAO. My CFI, and others have gone there from West Valley. I hope WV is able to get it's mojo back, I love the idea of the club, but it's too much drama for me at the moment.

Apologies too - I think most of the vitriol might be in the members-only "Board Sounding Board" forum, so the full extend of the discussion may not be publicly available. Also - a lot of the dialog has been removed at various times since there's some agressive cleanup (some people might say censorship) that has occurred.
 
West Valley has a bunch of Archers and Warriors. Advantage has an older archer (1978) with a Garmin 430 in it, and a very new one with the Avidyne glass panel.

There's also a new club that mainly has Cessnas called "Advanced Flyers". Founded by an ex-West Valley owner who has 5 or 6 172SPs. They also have a 182 and a Citabria IIRC.
 
fiid. said:
West Valley has a bunch of Archers and Warriors. Advantage has an older archer (1978) with a Garmin 430 in it, and a very new one with the Avidyne glass panel.

There's also a new club that mainly has Cessnas called "Advanced Flyers". Founded by an ex-West Valley owner who has 5 or 6 172SPs. They also have a 182 and a Citabria IIRC.
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I've sent messages to both West Valley and Advantage to see what I could do with them. I talked to the folks at Sundance a while ago, and I'll get in touch with them again soon. In terms of aircraft, Sundance has what I want - a number of Warriors at prices similar to what I pay around here. The Advantage Archers are maybe a bit more plane than I need for this trip.
 
chucky said:
In Palo Alto. I'm doing some work at Stanford for a few weeks.

RHV was not on my radar, but I'll keep it in mind. Petaluma is a bit far, since I don't have a car, but I've been meaning to get up there one of these days. I'm not sure how to get to Hayward from Palo Alto without a car, but I had been thinking about that.

If I were to take a job in the Bay area, though, I might not end up living in Palo Alto, and I'm interested in hearing about these other options, especially the ones I might actually be able to afford. B)
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I would just rent a car for the weekends if I were you. You can get a rental cat for $30/weekend and it's very much worth it.

As to where to live - if you're going to be working in Palo Alto, I would stick with the South Bay. The South Bay isn't any worse than the East Bay, and those are the two affordable options. The North Bay is amazingly beautiful but it's very far from Palo Alto and it's very expensive unless you live north of San Rafael. That's going to be a 2 hr commute to PAO though.

In the South Bay, some nice options include Atherton and Menlo Park. Those areas aren't cheap, either. If I wanted affordable and nice, I'd live in Pacifica on the ocean.
 
sba55 said:
If I wanted affordable and nice, I'd live in Pacifica on the ocean.
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Affordable is probably in the eye of the beholder but if someone is working in Palo Alto and wants to live by the ocean then Half Moon Bay might be a good choice as it is a closer drive than Pacifica. It even has an airport. I'm not sure if there are any flight schools there, though. The last time I drove by, which was only about a month ago, it looked pretty empty.
 
sba55 said:
I would just rent a car for the weekends if I were you. You can get a rental cat for $30/weekend and it's very much worth it.

As to where to live - if you're going to be working in Palo Alto, I would stick with the South Bay. The South Bay isn't any worse than the East Bay, and those are the two affordable options. The North Bay is amazingly beautiful but it's very far from Palo Alto and it's very expensive unless you live north of San Rafael. That's going to be a 2 hr commute to PAO though.

In the South Bay, some nice options include Atherton and Menlo Park. Those areas aren't cheap, either. If I wanted affordable and nice, I'd live in Pacifica on the ocean.
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South Bay is where I would probably choose, if I decided I couldn't afford San Fransisco proper (and I can't), all things being equal. There is an issue of a 'better half', though, who would have an easier time finding a job in Berkley. So far the only place that we're both applying for jobs in is Tuscon. Not a place I'd mind living, but she's less thrilled about it.

Anyway, renting a car is an option, but it lessens the cost advantage of flying out of somewhere else. There are people I can borrow cars from (or get rides from - there are a few people who want me to take them for rides) and that makes things a bit more reasonable, but I'll have to see.
 
chucky said:
PAO is walkable (for me) from my hotel (...)
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Say what again? The airport is on the IKEA side of the 101, is it not? They actually changed pattern rules at PAO because locals were taking potshots at airplanes (there was some fake reason given, like noise abatement or something). In late 1990s the town took the crown in murders per capita from Oakland for a year or two. Of course Oakland weren't one to lose for long, but nonetheless... Is the whole area razed and gentrified now?
 
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I was at the West Valley meeting and was quite impressed with the extent to which the current board of directors has a handle on the situation. They have obviously really done their homework. The fiscal crisis was brought on by a combination of factors (not unlike an "accident chain," I guess). They have a well thought-out array of measures planned to get the cash flow back into positive territory going forward. I suspect this is why the vote for the assessment was so strongly favorable.

There was quite a sizable turnout for the meeting, by the way, although I don't know what percentage of the membership was there.
 
zaitcev said:
Say what again? The airport is on the IKEA side of the 101, is it not? They actually changed pattern rules at PAO because locals were taking potshots at airplanes (there was some fake reason given, like noise abatement or something). In late 1990s the town took the crown in murders per capita from Oakland for a year or two. Of course Oakland weren't one to lose for long, but nonetheless... Is the whole area razed and gentrified now?
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I don't know one way or the other whether it has been gentrified, but I have heard that the town of East Palo Alto is a far better place to live than it used to be.
 
Palmpilot said:
I was at the West Valley meeting and was quite impressed with the extent to which the current board of directors has a handle on the situation. They have obviously really done their homework. The fiscal crisis was brought on by a combination of factors (not unlike an "accident chain," I guess). They have a well thought-out array of measures planned to get the cash flow back into positive territory going forward. I suspect this is why the vote for the assessment was so strongly favorable.

There was quite a sizable turnout for the meeting, by the way, although I don't know what percentage of the membership was there.
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Glad to hear it. Your post kind of reminds me of Scott's quote - "Government happens FOR those that show up. For those that do not they lose their say and government happen TO them."
 
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