Renting an airplane on vacation or what is wrong with GA

DFH65

DFH65

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DFH65
So on vacation with my wife somewhere on the east coast. Sent an email to the local FBO saying,

Private pilot in town for a week might like to go for a flight if I can fit it in possibly with my wife along. Can you let me know your rental rates and instructor rates as well.

Thanks!
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They respond,
Hi Mr. DFH65,

We're excited that you're interested in flying with us! Unfortunately, we wouldn't be able to have a flight with you and your wife at the rental rate with an instructor. That's too similar to a training-type flight that we would then need your License, medical, passport (or birth certificate and state-issued ID) and a 5-hour check-out for insurance purposes. I can however get you scheduled with a tour. That would be the best option for you and your wife if you are looking for some time up in the air during your stay. You can find that information on our website here.

Let me know if you have anymore questions!

Best Regards,
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I have my license, my medical and several forms of Id with me. I did not bring my passport or birth certificate. I didn't think the proof of citizenship applies if it isn't toward an initial certificate. They of course are recommending I take a sight seeing flight which they get $250 an hour for in a 172K. Not interested in that.

Maybe my note was confusing just wanted to rent the plane pay the instructor and go flying for an hour. Shouldn't be this hard. :nonod:

Maybe they just want to make a few extra dollars because my wife is along. When I did my initial training my wife flew in the back quite often and never got asked to pay extra.:dunno:
 
I was hoping to get a quick 172 checkout at an airport near my parents' house, but they don't rent their planes out at all; they also cited insurance purposes. Took my money elsewhere.
 
Did you check out Openairplane.com? They are fighting for the exact thing you are looking to do. One checkout near you, and you can fly anywhere else that subscribes to Openairplane without a checkout. Same make/model plane you were checked out in.
 
I could also demonstrate I have non-owned airplane insurance with 50K hull insurance. That ought to cover just about any rental fleet 172K out there.
 
charheep said:
Did you check out Openairplane.com? They are fighting for the exact thing you are looking to do. One checkout near you, and you can fly anywhere else that subscribes to Openairplane without a checkout. Same make/model plane you were checked out in.
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Interesting.
This same operator has a plane listed on openairplane.com at another airport they operate out of that isn't too far away but it isn't the 172 it's a DA40.
 
charheep said:
Did you check out Openairplane.com? They are fighting for the exact thing you are looking to do. One checkout near you, and you can fly anywhere else that subscribes to Openairplane without a checkout. Same make/model plane you were checked out in.
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The problem with open airplane is that the only aircraft listed are the most expensive. It's hard to find a 172N trainer on there for a reasonable rate of $130 or less. But the latest G1000 super-gizmo 172SP that flies exactly the same but with less payload, and costs $170, can be found.

But there are legit operators out there. I've done the vacation rental thing with as little as 30 minutes checkout. Basically, to make sure I could land the plane in one piece.
 
MAKG1 said:
The problem with open airplane is that the only aircraft listed are the most expensive. It's hard to find a 172N trainer on there for a reasonable rate of $130 or less. But the latest G1000 super-gizmo 172SP that flies exactly the same but with less payload, and costs $170, can be found.

But there are legit operators out there. I've done the vacation rental thing with as little as 30 minutes checkout. Basically, to make sure I could land the plane in one piece.
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That's because of the 10% OpenAirplane gets. There's a local flight school that advertizes their aircraft for one price on their website, and a slightly higher price on OA to offset OA's cut.
 
Call them and tell them you are interested in learning to fly and would like to take a one hour introductory lesson. When you get in the plane (with your wife in the back) tell the instructor you have some xbox time and would like to see how it translates-then take it up and do what you want. Tell him xbox is really good.
 
Honestly, that flight school is dumb. One can get flight training at any time as part of recurrent / proficiency training. One could ask to do a WINGS phase flight and ask to have the wife in the back so it would be a more realistic payload and that shouldn't be a problem.
 
Tell them you need a BFR (yes, I know). Surely they don't require a five-hour checkout before you can get a BFR. Then once you get up with the instructor, tell him you'd like to do some sightseeing too.
 
Yep, OpenAirplane.com is the ticket for you! Great service to use for just that. I'll be using it in NYC in May.

You need to go do the checkout with an OpenAirplane operator locally first, that way you don't have to mess with it when you get to your vacation destination.
 
Lindberg said:
Tell them you need a BFR (yes, I know). Surely they don't require a five-hour checkout before you can get a BFR. Then once you get up with the instructor, tell him you'd like to do some sightseeing too.
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Thought about that. I would like a BFR. I would like to specifically work on flying with passengers in the back, flying along the ocean,...
 
A 5 hour checkout for a 172? So stupidly unnecessary (especially if you have logged time in one beforehand).

I came home to visit family this weekend. I went up for 20 minutes in a warrior, got signed off, and was flying my dad over his house later that day. The paperwork? Signed a two page form where he jotted my pilot cert number down and a telephone number.

I mean seriously...do some of these rental outfits think they are renting 737s or something? It's a freaking single engine piston.
 
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RyanShort1 said:
That's because of the 10% OpenAirplane gets. There's a local flight school that advertizes their aircraft for one price on their website, and a slightly higher price on OA to offset OA's cut.
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If I'm just looking for a fun rental on vacation or something, I still come out ahead. I bet even with the OA surcharge it's cheaper than taking an instructor along, and definitely cheaper than doing an hour's check with an instructor and THEN going on your solo flight! :)
 
Katamarino said:
If I'm just looking for a fun rental on vacation or something, I still come out ahead. I bet even with the OA surcharge it's cheaper than taking an instructor along, and definitely cheaper than doing an hour's check with an instructor and THEN going on your solo flight! :)
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Oh, for sure.
 
As much fun as it is to fly in new places for me I keep coming up against being able to fly 2-3 hours at home vs. an hour somewhere else.

I like the openairplane idea if it ever gets bigger. A 10% premium seems more than reasonable.

I also need to thank my instructor (also it is his plane I rent) when I get home. 172M with Garmin 430 at $110 and hour and instruction at $38 an hour looks more and more reasonable all the time when I see what others are charging.
 
DFH65 said:
As much fun as it is to fly in new places for me I keep coming up against being able to fly 2-3 hours at home vs. an hour somewhere else.

I like the openairplane idea if it ever gets bigger. A 10% premium seems more than reasonable.

I also need to thank my instructor (also it is his plane I rent) when I get home. 172M with Garmin 430 at $110 and hour and instruction at $38 an hour looks more and more reasonable all the time when I see what others are charging.
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Yeah, that's a great deal.

I fly a Cherokee 140 with a 430 in it. $105 an hour and $30 for instruction. That's about the cheapest I've seen unless you get a C152.

Visiting my parents this weekend, I paid $125 an hour for a Warrior-151 to take dad around in and I felt gouged lol...even though I know that's actually pretty cheap.
 
I'm guessing that letter was written by someone who didn't understand either the regulations or your request. Regrettably, good help is hard to find at the wages most flight schools pay.
 
I know no one will want to hear this, but I'll stick my 2¢ in here anyway.
Insurance, and lack of trust and confidence in the pilot certificate is the reason every renter has to confirm the pilot's proficiency.
After 50+ years flight instructing with certificated pilots, I would never trust my airplane with only seeing a certificate and logbook.
Insurance companies charge based on risk, and that is where the risk is.
A solution would be to increase certification and recency of experience requirements to a sensible level that would reduce those types of accidents which occur due to those lacking requirements.
Of course, any time anyone suggests such a thing, all hell breaks loose from the GA community.
But if we bucked up and took the training and recency experience seriously and the accident rate went down, we could have a nationwide rental system, and GA would grow as it should.
 
nosehair said:
I know no one will want to hear this, but I'll stick my 2¢ in here anyway.
Insurance, and lack of trust and confidence in the pilot certificate is the reason every renter has to confirm the pilot's proficiency.
After 50+ years flight instructing with certificated pilots, I would never trust my airplane with only seeing a certificate and logbook.
Insurance companies charge based on risk, and that is where the risk is.
A solution would be to increase certification and recency of experience requirements to a sensible level that would reduce those types of accidents which occur due to those lacking requirements.
Of course, any time anyone suggests such a thing, all hell breaks loose from the GA community.
But if we bucked up and took the training and recency experience seriously and the accident rate went down, we could have a nationwide rental system, and GA would grow as it should.
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:yeahthat:
 
nosehair said:
I know no one will want to hear this, but I'll stick my 2¢ in here anyway.
Insurance, and lack of trust and confidence in the pilot certificate is the reason every renter has to confirm the pilot's proficiency.
After 50+ years flight instructing with certificated pilots, I would never trust my airplane with only seeing a certificate and logbook.
Insurance companies charge based on risk, and that is where the risk is.
A solution would be to increase certification and recency of experience requirements to a sensible level that would reduce those types of accidents which occur due to those lacking requirements.
Of course, any time anyone suggests such a thing, all hell breaks loose from the GA community.
But if we bucked up and took the training and recency experience seriously and the accident rate went down, we could have a nationwide rental system, and GA would grow as it should.
Click to expand...

Do you think 5 hours to check out in a 172 is legit?
 
nosehair said:
Insurance, and lack of trust and confidence in the pilot certificate is the reason every renter has to confirm the pilot's proficiency.
After 50+ years flight instructing with certificated pilots, I would never trust my airplane with only seeing a certificate and logbook.
Click to expand...

Well sure. When I rent a plane at an unfamiliar FBO when traveling, I expect to do a one-hour checkout ride before renting. But I've never encountered a five-hour checkout requirement for a 172.
 
nosehair said:
I know no one will want to hear this, but I'll stick my 2¢ in here anyway.
Insurance, and lack of trust and confidence in the pilot certificate is the reason every renter has to confirm the pilot's proficiency.
After 50+ years flight instructing with certificated pilots, I would never trust my airplane with only seeing a certificate and logbook.
Insurance companies charge based on risk, and that is where the risk is.
A solution would be to increase certification and recency of experience requirements to a sensible level that would reduce those types of accidents which occur due to those lacking requirements.
Of course, any time anyone suggests such a thing, all hell breaks loose from the GA community.
But if we bucked up and took the training and recency experience seriously and the accident rate went down, we could have a nationwide rental system, and GA would grow as it should.
Click to expand...


The way I read it he asked to go up WITH an instructor. Hardly the same as showing up with a cert and logbook. Sounds like they enjoy chasing away business to me.
 
paflyer said:
Do you think 5 hours to check out in a 172 is legit?
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Couldn't say without reading that flight school's insurance policy. But again, I think the person who wrote the reply did not understand either the FAA/TSA regulations or the OP's request. It would probably have been better to have called and talked to the Chief Instructor or FBO Manager rather than sending an email which would be read and answered by God-knows-who, maybe just a secretary/receptionist with zero aeronautical knowledge.
 
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nosehair said:
I know no one will want to hear this, but I'll stick my 2¢ in here anyway.
Insurance, and lack of trust and confidence in the pilot certificate is the reason every renter has to confirm the pilot's proficiency.
After 50+ years flight instructing with certificated pilots, I would never trust my airplane with only seeing a certificate and logbook.
Click to expand...

I agree; in fact, I have turned away renters on more than one occasion based on their attempt to get out of some sort of checkout.

I've heard "I don't need a checkout because I have X hours in type". I typcially respond "The checkout should be quick and painless then." Both due diligence and insurance require it--I'm responsible to the aircraft owners who have trusted me with their expensive assets, and if it means marginally less money at the end of the day I'm fine with it.

That said, in the OP's case, it sounds like whoever is responding either misunderstood the question or simply does not understand TSA requirements. Additionally, a five hour checkout for a 172 is excessive assuming a current, average or better pilot. The flight school in question certainly seems unusual; I'd suggest calling and talking to a CFI or just moving on.
 
That was my plan, rent plane and pay instructor to go flying for an hour. Figured an hour would be $125-$130 for the plane and 45-50 for the instructor. But I think they just want me to pay the $250 for a sightseeing tour since in isn't a long term instruction deal. Instead they get nothing.

The only thing I would say about the check out is what is more risk. A student with 20 hours going on a solo XC or current certificated pilot?
 
DFH65 said:
So on vacation with my wife somewhere on the east coast. Sent an email to the local FBO saying,



They respond,


I have my license, my medical and several forms of Id with me. I did not bring my passport or birth certificate. I didn't think the proof of citizenship applies if it isn't toward an initial certificate. They of course are recommending I take a sight seeing flight which they get $250 an hour for in a 172K. Not interested in that.

Maybe my note was confusing just wanted to rent the plane pay the instructor and go flying for an hour. Shouldn't be this hard. :nonod:

Maybe they just want to make a few extra dollars because my wife is along. When I did my initial training my wife flew in the back quite often and never got asked to pay extra.:dunno:
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What happens if you ask for a flight review and take your wife with you?:dunno:
 
You weren't even asking to get checked out. Just fly some dual. Certainly a misunderstanding of some sort.

Where is this? Hawaii? I probably would have done this by phone and asked to speak to an actual instructor.
 
Brad Z said:
You weren't even asking to get checked out. Just fly some dual. Certainly a misunderstanding of some sort.

Where is this? Hawaii? I probably would have done this by phone and asked to speak to an actual instructor.
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That's all I ever do if I want to just get up and have a look, I show up and book an hour of dual.:dunno:
 
Misunderstanding seems possible, but it really does seem more likely that this school is in the overpriced sightseeing-tour business (I'm guessing this is a vacation destination) and not in the let-visiting-pilots-conduct-their-own-sightseeing-tour business.
 
DFH65 said:
That was my plan, rent plane and pay instructor to go flying for an hour. Figured an hour would be $125-$130 for the plane and 45-50 for the instructor. But I think they just want me to pay the $250 for a sightseeing tour since in isn't a long term instruction deal. Instead they get nothing.

The only thing I would say about the check out is what is more risk. A student with 20 hours going on a solo XC or current certificated pilot?
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I did this very thing in Hawaii. Went to Oahu for a big birthday, and wanted to go up with my whole crew. Found a place that had a plane with 6 seats, and emailed them to say I wanted to get some time in Hawaii, but wanted my whole family to go with me. They said sure, and took us along the same places they go when they do island tours.

Since we had to take a twin, it was about the same cost as a "tour" would have been. But, I got to fly the plane, and my logbook has some multi time and an entry for HNL that a tour never would have gotten me.

The best part, though, was that I was at the controls when the instructor said "This is the path the Japanese flew on Dec. 7, 1941". I'll never forget looking down to see Schofield Barracks, Wheeler Field, and then fly over Ford Island and Pearl Harbor. Definitely a bucket list item there.
 
DFH65 said:
The only thing I would say about the check out is what is more risk. A student with 20 hours going on a solo XC or current certificated pilot?
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When you've flown with as many of each as I have, you'll know the answer isn't always as certain as you might think/hope.
 
I looked pretty closely at doing OpenAirplane with the rental setup I'm running and just couldn't convince myself it was worth the time. I really didn't like their rental agreement. I thought it was too restrictive. I also think the checkout is a bit too complicated. Just more paperwork then I want to deal with.

Plus, there is no way in hell I'm going to ask people to sign a rental agreement that is a legally binding document I may have to stand in court and reference some day that contains the following:
Under no circumstances may the Pilot or any other occupant of any rented aircraft wear or possess a kilt in the rented aircraft.
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Yes, I realize that's probably a joke. But I don't care. It's in a legal document. That made me think they weren't very serious about their operation and I decided to move on.

In reality it wouldn't drive business for us since we're not a tourist destination someone would want to rent an airplane at.
 
The five hour checkout seems to be very excessive to me.

I've done something like this only once. Went to Maui and wanted to do some sightseeing by air. I just reviewed my logbook for the details...

Maui Aviators (www.mauiaviators.com/) required a checkout in their 172 prior to turning over the keys. We sat down first to review the logbook, and they also spent some time with the sectional going over the local procedures and landmarks. Total time on the hobbs for the checkout was 0.6 hours. A takeoff, fly out to the practice area, talk about the landmarks, a few steep turns, and then the landing. That was it.

That's the way things should go. It should be pretty simple to evaluate someone's competence fairly quickly; no need for a 5 hour checkout in a 172. Plus, having an instructor along for the flight shouldn't require anything at all.

Seems to me that the FBO just didn't want your business.
 
Having rented several times I have always done a one hour check out flight. Never a problem,having renters insurance also helps.
 
Frogs97 said:
I did this very thing in Hawaii. Went to Oahu for a big birthday, and wanted to go up with my whole crew. Found a place that had a plane with 6 seats, and emailed them to say I wanted to get some time in Hawaii, but wanted my whole family to go with me. They said sure, and took us along the same places they go when they do island tours.



Since we had to take a twin, it was about the same cost as a "tour" would have been. But, I got to fly the plane, and my logbook has some multi time and an entry for HNL that a tour never would have gotten me.



The best part, though, was that I was at the controls when the instructor said "This is the path the Japanese flew on Dec. 7, 1941". I'll never forget looking down to see Schofield Barracks, Wheeler Field, and then fly over Ford Island and Pearl Harbor. Definitely a bucket list item there.
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Where/what FBO did you do this at in Oahu? I am interested in same deal (six seats).
 
I rented a 182 for 2.5 hours from Tropic Bird at Kona. I think it was $300 per hour wet with CFI which was a bit expensive but less than tour prices... And I got to land on Molokai. I would rent there again... Ask for Terry. Lots of fun.

A local school here required 10 hours in their G1000 172SP to get signed off. Hawaii was a better deal. :)
 
The only thing I would say about the check out is what is more risk. A student with 20 hours going on a solo XC or current certificated pilot?
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The solo student is a much safer risk than an unknown pilot.
Insurance statistics bear this out.
Students are supervised, familiar with local area, and known by the renting agency.

Most ( operative word is MOST ) certificate pilots would be proficient and capable of jumping.into most any rental small single with no checkout.
It's the few who do not keep themselves proficient that gum up the works.

In the unusual case of requiring 5 hours, some schools are so loaded with contracted students on a timed program, taking an airplane and instructor out of the normal flow for a 1 hour flight is not cost effective..
 
Never had a problem, most checkouts are 3 slam-bangs and cut loose to have fun. FL, NV, TX, CA and CO.

'Gimp
 
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