Renter's Insurance / Insight / Opinion / Rants / Recomendations?

archerdriver

archerdriver

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Archerdriver
I have had AOPA Renters' insurance for the last several years (renting LSA for the moment..), and wondering before I re-up, what other source should I consider?

I started to do some searching the other day, but had to use the conveyor belt to take off on my 1500nm Cross-country before I could finish.Picked up a lot of ice.

Thanks
 
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I compared several providers and went with the Facer Insurance Agency writing for Starr Aviation. they were not the cheapest head-to-head but the agency rep took her time to explain everything to me (I was a still a student and needed coverage to solo) and to make sure I understood and was comfortable. great customer service before the sale. i hope I never have to judge the customer service after the sale. :) 1-800-727-2147. ask for Nancy.
 
Avemco is a good insurer, but I'm not sure what their non-owner's policies are like. Something to look into.
 
You can view both AOPA and Avemco sample policies online. Both companies insure humans differently. Persons, passengers, family and yourself. Call and ask both companies to explain their injury coverage for each of the 4.
 
While you can sign up online, call and ask about discounts for recurrent training and advanced ratings.
 
Call a broker. They represent multiple companies. I have found better deals using brokers than what aopa was able to put together.

TJ at Airpower
Tom at Wings Insurance

Both top-notch guys.
 
This post comes at s great time since Aopa's insurer sent me a letter Friday stating that they will not be renewing my non owner insurance.
 
I used Avemco for years until I started renting from my current club which has insurance that covers the renter and I no longer have to worry about subrogation. There's a $1000 deductible but I don't think it's worth paying for renters insurance just to cover that.
 
MassPilot said:
I used Avemco for years until I started renting from my current club which has insurance that covers the renter and I no longer have to worry about subrogation. There's a $1000 deductible but I don't think it's worth paying for renters insurance just to cover that.
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Did you have the club insurance policy reviewed by your attorney? Also, I don't know if the liability coverage (beyond the hull) of the club insurance covers you personally; I'll bet it doesn't.
 
paflyer said:
Did you have the club insurance policy reviewed by your attorney? Also, I don't know if the liability coverage (beyond the hull) of the club insurance covers you personally; I'll bet it doesn't.
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You'd lose that bet. Here's the relevant section from the rental agreement:
Club maintains an insurance policy from a well-respected aviation provider. Our current coverage is
$1,000,000 combined single limit, and full hull value is insured or self-insured. Each pilot is also covered for $100,000
per person / $300,000 per occurrence liability as an additional insured. Pilots who damage an aircraft are responsible
for a $1,000 deductible on fixed gear aircraft, $2,500 for complex aircraft, $5000 for multi-engine aircraft and loss of
use caused by their negligence.
Click to expand...
 
MassPilot said:
You'd lose that bet. Here's the relevant section from the rental agreement:
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paflyer has a good point. You need to review the actual policy, not the Club's paraphrasing of it. Most people (including those within the Club responsible for procuring such policies and writing the blurb you posted) do not understand insurance policies and who/what is actually covered. You very well may not have any personal coverage under that policy. You need to see, at a minimum, the actual declaration page to see who is listed as an "insured" and/or an "additional insured." If you're not in either of those categories, you're not entitled to the benefits of the policy.
 
bradg33 said:
paflyer has a good point. You need to review the actual policy, not the Club's paraphrasing of it. Most people (including those within the Club responsible for procuring such policies and writing the blurb you posted) do not understand insurance policies and who/what is actually covered. You very well may not have any personal coverage under that policy. You need to see, at a minimum, the actual declaration page to see who is listed as an "insured" and/or an "additional insured." If you're not in either of those categories, you're not entitled to the benefits of the policy.
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If the club's insurance agency tried to subrogate against me after an accident, wouldn't the rental agreement be a defense? Any lawyers on here want to answer?
 
MassPilot said:
If the club's insurance agency tried to subrogate against me after an accident, wouldn't the rental agreement be a defense? Any lawyers on here want to answer?
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Maybe, but it's pretty unlikely (of course, all this depends on the particular state, facts, etc.). The rental agreement is between you and the club, not you and the insurance company. And if there's an accident and someone is injured or a third-party's property is damaged, the rental agreement almost certainly won't obligate the insurance company to pay out on the liability limits or defend you in a lawsuit. Sure, maybe you can sue the Club on some sort of indemnification theory based on the rental agreement, but I doubt the Club is liquid/solvent enough to actually pay for your defense or on any judgment entered against you.
 
My thoughts are if the club negligently prepared a rental agreement that incorrectly said you were covered by the insurance, it would merely give you a claim against the club, not inhibit the insurance company from doing whatever it normally would.
 
MassPilot said:
You'd lose that bet. Here's the relevant section from the rental agreement:
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This has a ton of holes in it, The "coverage" you are getting is peanuts. Who is the "well respected" company? Do you know if the premium has been paid? Do you know if the policy is still in force? Do you have the actual declarations page? In an incident, who gets paid first, the "club" or you? Who pays for the attorney to defend you (and you don't have to be "guilty" of anything to need a defense.) What's the potential "loss of use" cost to you?

Seems to me a renter policy for $300/year is cheap compared to the downside of riding on the (crappy) club insurance.
 
MassPilot said:
You'd lose that bet. Here's the relevant section from the rental agreement:
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My ownership club is very similar, but I still took out an AOPA non-owner liability policy because AOPA (unlike Avemco) covers a full million dollars of liability protection for any non-involved person injured in an accident.
 
JimNtexas said:
My ownership club is very similar, but I still took out an AOPA non-owner liability policy because AOPA (unlike Avemco) covers a full million dollars of liability protection for any non-involved person injured in an accident.
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Jim, interesting you can get a million smooth. Does your club have students/low timers?
 
paflyer said:
This has a ton of holes in it, The "coverage" you are getting is peanuts. Who is the "well respected" company? Do you know if the premium has been paid? Do you know if the policy is still in force? Do you have the actual declarations page? In an incident, who gets paid first, the "club" or you? Who pays for the attorney to defend you (and you don't have to be "guilty" of anything to need a defense.) What's the potential "loss of use" cost to you?

Seems to me a renter policy for $300/year is cheap compared to the downside of riding on the (crappy) club insurance.
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It mentions the company later in the agreement, I just didn't want to include all the specifics. Maybe you're right though. Compared to the cost of flying, renters insurance is cheap.
 
MassPilot said:
It mentions the company later in the agreement, I just didn't want to include all the specifics. Maybe you're right though. Compared to the cost of flying, renters insurance is cheap.
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Yeah, as one wise man once said: 'Believe none of what you hear, and only half of what you see.'

I'm sure the club management believes you are covered, but many in the clutch have found themselves swinging in the breeze. Always CYA.

James will be along soon and claim that carrying insurance is dumb. But anyone with assets and obligations needs to protect them. Lots of sharks out there.
 
Thanks for the responses, all.

Now i'm off to search for a plain English glossary of all these insurance terms...

I.e. 'smooth'; 'hull'......
 
paflyer said:
Jim, interesting you can get a million smooth. Does your club have students/low timers?
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We have 28 owner-members and three airplanes, so they don't look at individual experience. They do have some experience requirements to fly our 177RG.

AOPA is a million smooth for non-involved people. Passengers are still limited to $100K.
 
I am not a lawyer, but I would be surprised if the club wasn't covered against damage or negligence by its members. I would likewise be surprised if club members were protected from subrogation by the club's insurance underwriter (in my experience, only named pilots typically enjoy such protection). As others have stated, the only way to know for sure is to thoroughly read the actual policy.

If you don't have substantial assets, it may not matter to you one way or the other. If you do, you probably want to have your own protection no matter what someone else's policy or agreement says.


JKG

PS: I'll second Tom Hague at Wings Insurance, though I know there are other very good brokers as well.
 
JGoodish said:
I am not a lawyer, but I would be surprised if the club wasn't covered against damage or negligence by its members. I would likewise be surprised if club members were protected from subrogation by the club's insurance underwriter (in my experience, only named pilots typically enjoy such protection). As others have stated, the only way to know for sure is to thoroughly read the actual policy.

If you don't have substantial assets, it may not matter to you one way or the other. If you do, you probably want to have your own protection no matter what someone else's policy or agreement says.


JKG

PS: I'll second Tom Hague at Wings Insurance, though I know there are other very good brokers as well.
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In the last club I was in, the insurance policy listed as "Insureds" the Club itself and "it's members, officers, and directors."
 
bradg33 said:
In the last club I was in, the insurance policy listed as "Insureds" the Club itself and "it's members, officers, and directors."
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That may be so, but that in no way means that the insurer won't come after you for claims. My personal aircraft policies have always covered named and unnamed pilots, but only specifically named pilots were exempted from subrogation for claims. Even if everyone were exempted, I don't think I'd trust that from a policy written for a third party which I did not control, and certainly wouldn't trust it unless I had an opportunity to review the full policy language.


JKG
 
JGoodish said:
That may be so, but that in no way means that the insurer won't come after you for claims. My personal aircraft policies have always covered named and unnamed pilots, but only specifically named pilots were exempted from subrogation for claims. Even if everyone were exempted, I don't think I'd trust that from a policy written for a third party which I did not control, and certainly wouldn't trust it unless I had an opportunity to review the full policy language.


JKG
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A name insured is, by virtue of being a named insured, not subject to subrogation. They are effectively the owner of the policy. You're right that one needs to review the actual policy.
 
bradg33 said:
A name insured is, by virtue of being a named insured, not subject to subrogation. They are effectively the owner of the policy. You're right that one needs to review the actual policy.
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Individuals are not necessarily the owners of a corporate policy any more than pilots who fly my aircraft are owners of my policy, even though my policy covers qualified individuals under the open pilot clause. The last time I reviewed my policy, the latter were NOT exempt from subrogation for claims. It would seem that there are quite a few potential variables in such a situation.

Regardless, it is impossible to know policy definitions, or the subrogation language, without reviewing the actual policy. And even then, a policy that I don't control can't be trusted to protect my personal assets, but that is my personal opinion. I certainly wouldn't trust any separate contract which claims to represent the policy language. If you have assets to risk, better to protect them on your own. That is also a personal opinion.


JKG
 
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So how much would and 'average' renter's insurance policy be a year for an instrument rated pilot with a few hundred hours? Ballpark.
 
BrianNC said:
So how much would and 'average' renter's insurance policy be a year for an instrument rated pilot with a few hundred hours? Ballpark.
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How much hull coverage? I've shopped renters insurance. So far I haven't run across one that cares about your ratings or experience. I don't get that.
 
Kerrie Reichert said:
Anyone who rents a house, loft or apartment, whether a student, renting a room off campus, a senior citizen enjoying retirement, or those who are still working, must make sure to take the time to assess their risk of loss of physical possessions, or through legal liability for loss to others. For sure, renters insurance protects your belongings in the event of a fire, theft, or other unforeseen events. You can also clear all your doubts, go thought Internet, or take a look at some recommended site, about renters insurance and related information.
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Nicely done with the spam. Didn't even see it coming.
 
BrianNC said:
So how much would and 'average' renter's insurance policy be a year for an instrument rated pilot with a few hundred hours? Ballpark.
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You can shop rates at AOPA or Avemco, but generally you select a hull damage limit and liability limit. Everyone zeros in on hull damage, but in reality it is bodily injury where you want spend your insurance dollar. Pay attention to how the policy covers people. There are differences in policies for yourself, occupants, family members, persons, ect.
 
bradg33 said:
You need to see, at a minimum, the actual declaration page to see who is listed as an "insured" and/or an "additional insured."
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Actually, before you make any coverage determination, you have to see all three parts of the policy-- the declarations page, the body, and the endorsements. The endorsements can completely change the language as far as who is an insured.
 
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MassPilot said:
If the club's insurance agency tried to subrogate against me after an accident, wouldn't the rental agreement be a defense? Any lawyers on here want to answer?
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Well, it wouldn't be the agency that subrogates. It would be the insurance carrier. At least in my state, an insured can bind their insurance carrier to a waiver of subrogation by contract. The insurance company steps in to the shoes of their insured. This means that the subrogation claim is subject to any defenses that the alleged wrong doer would have against any claim if the insured brought it directly. So, if there was a pre-suit waiver of liability between me and you, then you could raise that same release against the insurance carrier if they brought the claim instead of me.

Also, in my state, a contractual obligation to get insurance for a specific loss can imply that the parties intended that the risk of loss would be born by insurance, and act as an implied waiver of subrogation.

TL;DR version: Answer: potentially, yes.
 
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JGoodish said:
That may be so, but that in no way means that the insurer won't come after you for claims.
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In my state, by public policy, an insurer is prohibited from subrogating against an insured. I believe this is typical for most states.
 
PPC1052 said:
In my state, by public policy, an insurer is prohibited from subrogating against an insured. I believe this is typical for most states.
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Why would an insurance company pay a claim and then subrogate against an insured? Seems to me they would deny the claim and make the insured sue them.
 
Clip4 said:
Why would an insurance company pay a claim and then subrogate against an insured? Seems to me they would deny the claim and make the insured sue them.
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Where it typically comes up is when there are multiple insureds such that the carrier is making payment to only one of its insureds for a loss that might have been caused by another. For example, the carrier may owe on a hull claim, so it pays the club to replace the plane. It might want to sue the flying member to recoup what it paid to the club. If the member is also an insured, it cannot. Not sure if that answers your question.

Generally, there are named insureds, additional named insureds, and additional insureds in policies. You go buy a policy-- you are the named insured. You then go to them and pay them 25.00 bucks to add your CFI as an additional insured. They issue an endorsement naming him. He is an additional named insured. Your policy might also include coverage for pilots that meet certain qualifications. For example, I often see coverage for repair shops that are flying a plane incident to performing repairs. A pilot operating the plane that meets that qualification might be an additional insured. So, you can end up with coverage for folks that are bit removed from the party receiving payment from the carrier.
 
MassPilot said:
You'd lose that bet. Here's the relevant section from the rental agreement:

Club maintains an insurance policy from a well-respected aviation provider. Our current coverage is
$1,000,000 combined single limit, and full hull value is insured or self-insured. Each pilot is also covered for $100,000
per person / $300,000 per occurrence liability as an additional insured. Pilots who damage an aircraft are responsible
for a $1,000 deductible on fixed gear aircraft, $2,500 for complex aircraft, $5000 for multi-engine aircraft and loss of
use caused by their negligence.
Click to expand...

Be aware that this is a policy to protect the club, but probably does not adequately protect you. Do you think that if you injure someone that they will only sue for $100,000?
 
luvflyin said:
How much hull coverage? I've shopped renters insurance. So far I haven't run across one that cares about your ratings or experience. I don't get that.
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I see one of the places I would be renting from requires a minimum of $250,000/$25,000 and $20,000 physical damage.

So this policy would be good for any place I would rent from if they accepted those limits?
 
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