Renters insurance, 2 questions.

[gil_mor]

Hi,
I'm about to start working on my IFR ticket and have a few insurance questions:

1. If I'm always flying with a CFII, do I need to worry about insurance? He is also the FBO's instructor.
Who is going to take the blame in case something happens, its not like he is the PIC, so how does it work?

2. I noticed that in the AOPA PLATINUM Renter's Insurance they offer up to $10,000 for "Protection against claims for damage to the non-owned aircraft, including its loss of use".

I'm a named pilot on my old instructors insurance plan, and we are covered for $35,000 for aircraft damages.

I'm trying to figure if 10k is enough, since from what I read here - some FBOs can come after me - depend on their insurance.

What do you say?

 

[TMetzinger]

I say it depends on what the rental agreement says. Some state that students have no liability when flying with an approved instructor. Others state that the student and the CFI will share the liability.

You order coverage in two categories:
Liability - which covers damage to things other than the airplane, like people, or farmer Bob's prize cow. This may also cover "loss of use". This is the inexpensive category as far as coverage goes.
Hull - which covers damage to the non-owned airplane. This is more expensive. Here's an example. Recently an airplane (a recent, high value single engine twin turbo model made in the Pacific Northwest) hit a runway sign due to a glazed brake. Cost for replacing the wheel pant, the prop, and the engine teardown inspection was close to $40,000.00.

Choose your coverage based on what your rental agreement shows your liability to be. Some operations your only liability is for the deductible and they have a waiver of subrogation so that's all you're on the hook for. Others may require the deductable but not have the subrogation waiver and so the insurance company may come after you after paying off the operator.

Know what your exposure is, and choose your insurance based on how you perceive the risk.

 

[gil_mor]

Thanks Tim,
This makes a lot of sense.

I'm curious about is why AOPA "Best" and most expensive plan is only 10K for "Hull".

I'll get in touch with the FBO and figure out what the Rental agreement says.

 

[AdamZ]

I've never hear of the AOPA platinum plan. I do know that they offer much higher hull coverage than 10K

 

[gil_mor]

https://www.aopaia.com/renterpilot/renterapp.cfm
Scroll down to see, I got it in the (snail) mail.

 

[AdamZ]

Call AOPA Insurance I know they have more cause I just renewed. Those are just the "pre-packaged " deals.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

1. If I'm always flying with a CFII, do I need to worry about insurance? He is also the FBO's instructor.
Who is going to take the blame in case something happens, its not like he is the PIC, so how does it work?

Yes you SHOULD worry about insurance. As for blame, FAA blame and insurance blame may or may not be the same. The FAA could go after the CFI and the insurance company could go after you.

2. I noticed that in the AOPA PLATINUM Renter's Insurance they offer up to $10,000 for "Protection against claims for damage to the non-owned aircraft, including its loss of use".

I'm a named pilot on my old instructors insurance plan, and we are covered for $35,000 for aircraft damages.

Keep in mind "Named Pilot" and "Named Insured" are two different things. In the first, the owner of the plane is protected but not the non owner pilot, in the latter, the owner and the non owner pilot are protected. If you are using the proper terminology, you are still exposed, liability wise, even though you are "Named Pilot".

I'm trying to figure if 10k is enough, since from what I read here - some FBOs can come after me - depend on their insurance.

Yes they can. Will they? Who knows.

The 10 grand is basically enough to cover the deductible.

What do you say?

What I say is go find your own renters insurance. It sounds like AOPA's isn't much count. There are better policies with better coverage out there.

 

[denverpilot]

What I say is go find your own renters insurance. It sounds like AOPA's isn't much count. There are better policies with better coverage out there.

One caveat: AOPA's is one of the only ones that will write a Civil Air Patrol rider. Stupid, but just mentioning it for other CAP members...

You're liable for a lot of money on a very new C-182 if you're negligent and not on an Air Force "A" or "B" mission... and most currency flights where you're paying the bill, you're NOT on one of those... since you're on a "C"...

 

[gil_mor]

I love this forum

Keep in mind "Named Pilot" and "Named Insured" are two different things. In the first, the owner of the plane is protected but not the non owner pilot, in the latter, the owner and the non owner pilot are protected. If you are using the proper terminology, you are still exposed, liability wise, even though you are "Named Pilot".

I'm looking at my old instructor policy right now - I'm "Approved pilot", also there is an "Open Pilot Warranty" That says - "Any private pilot who holds a valid & effective pilot certificate and has the policy owners permission".

So, I'm pretty sure I'm covered, right?

Still waiting for the renters agreement from the FBO.

Thanks!

 

[denverpilot]

Depends. Read the policy and see if the insurance company will not subrogate against pilots on the 1) Main pilot's list, 2) Pilots flying under the open clause, 3) Etc.

 

[TMetzinger]

I love this forum


I'm looking at my old instructor policy right now - I'm "Approved pilot", also there is an "Open Pilot Warranty" That says - "Any private pilot who holds a valid & effective pilot certificate and has the policy owners permission".

So, I'm pretty sure I'm covered, right?

Still waiting for the renters agreement from the FBO.

Thanks!

Nope - that just says the insurance will pay the owner for any damage you cause. It does NOT say they will cover your liability, or that they won't sue you to recover their losses. You must be a NAMED INSURED for that coverage.

 

[gil_mor]

Ok, so I (Finally) got some info from the FBO.
For the plane I'm flying these are the specs:

1976 Cessna 172.

Insured Value: $50K

Physical Damage Coverage Deductibles: $2.5K (Both in motion and not).

Single limit Bodily Injury & Property Damage: $1M Passenger Liability Included.

Passenger liability limited to: $100K Each Person. $400K Each occurrence.

Medical Expenses(Including Crew): $3K Each Person, 12K Each occurrence.

So what Renters insurance would YOU get in that case?

 

[shenanigans]

Just in case you didn't see it, they have more options listed here:
http://www.aopaia.com/renters_start.cfm

click 'view current rates and options'. I think they just selected a couple pairs of options from there to form their three plans. I guess less options is easier from a marketing standpoint.

 

[RyanShort1]

Ok, so I (Finally) got some info from the FBO.
For the plane I'm flying these are the specs:

1976 Cessna 172.

Insured Value: $50K

I would absolutely tell my student to get $50K of hull value on the insurance and some liability coverage for passengers. I've had a little experience with a student needing to pay for a repair. Trust me, it's worth every penny. If you don't have it and something happens, it will change your outlook very quickly. BTW. Don't just shop AOPA. I'm an AOPA member, but for me AVEMCO was the better deal when I bought it. I carry $75K as an instructor including instructor liability - so I put my money where my mouth is.

Ryan

 

[gil_mor]

It only took me 3 months, but I think I know what I want/need.

Non Owner/Renter Insurance.

Standard Bodily Injury and Property Damage Liability Limits:
100K/1M
Aircraft Damage Liability Limits:
80K for the Cessna 210 I'm flying right now, then 50K for 172/older 182

I'm thinking about going with Avemco, and about ready to pull the trigger.

I should get 10% off for completing Wings programs and spending time with CFI.

Total - Around $700 per year.

Any words of wisdom?
Your experience with Avemco?
Better deal somewhere else?

 

[weilke]

I should get 10% off for completing Wings programs and spending time with CFI.

They are pretty liberal in what they give that 10% credit for.

Total - Around $700 per year.

Any words of wisdom?

Dont let anyone here or at the FBO talk you out of this as 'too expensive' and 'dude your overpaying, my buddy got renters insurance for $250/year through xyz broker'. Buy it.

Your experience with Avemco?

They are pretty much the only one that writes non-owned for twins. It is just a rider on the regular non-owned policy.

Better deal somewhere else?

For the higher limits you are seeking it's probably going to be the same with USAIG, another common underwriter for non-owned.

 

[gprellwitz]

Even for the lower limits I was looking for, Avemco beat AOPA IA, even with each of their discounts. I basically went with the new "gold" AOPA IA coverage.

 

[gil_mor]

Thanks for the encouragement.
I really do need it, its $700 down the drain (hopefully) every YEAR.
But that's the right thing to do

 

[n12365]

They are pretty much the only one that writes non-owned for twins.

I had the same experience looking for twin renters insurance. AOPA quoted me a price, but it was ridiculously expensive. Avemco was less than half the AOPA price. Several other places I looked didn't even offer renters insurance for twins.

Ryan

 

[weilke]

Thanks for the encouragement.
I really do need it, its $700 down the drain (hopefully) every YEAR.
But that's the right thing to do

Depends on whether you remain a renter for all your flying life.

If you find some setup where you are on someones policy as authorized pilot with waiver of subrogation, you may decide at some point that you dont need full-boat non-owned coverage.
Too many tales of woe from folks who got burned by assurances from the FBO that 'they are covered' when in reality it was the FBO that was covered.

If youf fly 100hrs/year, it's only seven bucks extra, it gets even cheaper if you fly more .

 

[weilke]

I had the same experience looking for twin renters insurance. AOPA quoted me a price, but it was ridiculously expensive. Avemco was less than half the AOPA price. Several other places I looked didn't even offer renters insurance for twins.

They are often more expensive than other insurers but for those kinds of situations like a 'non-owned in a twin' or 'complex for a noob' they can be better than the classic market.

 

[bluee]

Depends on whether you remain a renter for all your flying life.

If you find some setup where you are on someones policy as authorized pilot with waiver of subrogation, you may decide at some point that you dont need full-boat non-owned coverage.
Too many tales of woe from folks who got burned by assurances from the FBO that 'they are covered' when in reality it was the FBO that was covered.

If youf fly 100hrs/year, it's only seven bucks extra, it gets even cheaper if you fly more .

Yup. I was repeatedly told by the owner of the FBO that I was covered by their insurance. Big Fat Lie. I made one minor error, and they crucified me for it. My minor taxiing error cost me an obscene amount of money for what it was. I'll never fly again without my own insurance. Nor will I ever trust those people who lied to me.

 

[weilke]

Yup. I was repeatedly told by the owner of the FBO that I was covered by their insurance. Big Fat Lie. I made one minor error, and they crucified me for it. My minor taxiing error cost me an obscene amount of money for what it was. I'll never fly again without my own insurance. Nor will I ever trust those people who lied to me.

I was talking about you

(where you the one with the runway excursion or the one who was accosted by a wayward shrub ? )