Rental rant

rcaligan

rcaligan

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rcaligan
IMHO, I don't see mom & pop FBOs renting airplanes in the near future. Insurance has increased so much that they can't afford to maintain their fleet. Honestly, I don't care if the plane I'm flying has 10,000 hours on it and it was built in the 1960s, but I really want all of the equipment to work properly. I hate getting in with a new student and saying "this airplane does that" or replacing half a dozen "inop" stickers that were faded with age.

Then the FBO wonders why no one wants to fly.

So I'm thinking about picking up non-owners insurance and only teaching in privately-owned or club airplanes. Now I have never owned an airplane, but do most owners maintain their airplanes better than FBOs, or is it pretty much the same?
 
You would think so....but there are certainly those who think aw heck I can replace the mags next annual and save a few bucks
 
My 30+ year old airplane is maintained better than any FBO's I've seen except for the FBO that only has planes that are 2 years or younger.
 
Unfortunately, this has been the case at some FBOs for years. It's why I dread the thought of selling my plane and going back to rentals.

FWIW, the housing stock isn't necessarily a lot better. I've looked at a bunch of rental houses and apartments lately. There is a LOT of junk out there at very high prices.
 
rcaligan said:
IMHO, I don't see mom & pop FBOs renting airplanes in the near future. Insurance has increased so much that they can't afford to maintain their fleet. Honestly, I don't care if the plane I'm flying has 10,000 hours on it and it was built in the 1960s, but I really want all of the equipment to work properly. I hate getting in with a new student and saying "this airplane does that" or replacing half a dozen "inop" stickers that were faded with age.

Then the FBO wonders why no one wants to fly.

So I'm thinking about picking up non-owners insurance and only teaching in privately-owned or club airplanes. Now I have never owned an airplane, but do most owners maintain their airplanes better than FBOs, or is it pretty much the same?
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I think you will find that there are rotten apples in both barrels, some of my customers beg me to find discrepancies and others question every discrepancy I find.

I have one aircraft that I told the owner he must repair it, and it has been setting in the hangar 5 years, he has just lost interest but won't sell.
 
I just got my plane out of annual this weekend and I finally found a place to have all of my maintenence done. They (3SQ in St Louis) and they found discrepencies that should have been noted years ago (nothing that I could have spotted). They even invited me to assist (and I accepted) on the repairs. The last 2 places I had annuals done would not let me in the shop except after the inspection.
 
JRitt said:
The last 2 places I had annuals done would not let me in the shop except after the inspection.
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I asked my mechanic if I could help with the annual. He said sure it's the best way for you to understand the workings of your plane. He also said if he asked a mechanic that question and the mechanic said no he would not have them do the work.

Like AuntPeggy said we also keep our plane at the best condition possible. we might have some inside plastic cracking but that will happen with a 40 year old plane. BTW I am looking in to replacing the interior plastic anyone have any good/bad information on parts? 1967 172H

Bob
 
rcaligan said:
So I'm thinking about picking up non-owners insurance and only teaching in privately-owned or club airplanes. Now I have never owned an airplane, but do most owners maintain their airplanes better than FBOs, or is it pretty much the same?
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Tell you what, it really varies. I suspect that most of the people who hang out here take pretty good care of their aircraft, as do most of the owners at my home field.

I've had some really bad experiences with clubs (airplane, not helo), and I'd be particularly suspicious if the aircraft are on leaseback to the club.

I think a good way to tell is to look at the logbooks. If you see annuals signed off on with no mention of any discrepancies, run, don't walk, away. Particularly with older aircraft, there's always going to be some discrepancies if the inspection is done for real. Some owners basically pay for a signature with no real inspoection occuring...
 
I've had mixed experiences. I just found a rental plane in our local market that is immaculate. It's possible to find FBO's that still care.
 
RotaryWingBob said:
I think a good way to tell is to look at the logbooks. If you see annuals signed off on with no mention of any discrepancies, run, don't walk, away. Particularly with older aircraft, there's always going to be some discrepancies if the inspection is done for real. Some owners basically pay for a signature with no real inspoection occuring...
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And some of us have repairs made throughout the year whenever anything's not quite right. If maintenance is done properly, annuals which find no discrepancies are not unusual.
 
GaryO said:
And some of us have repairs made throughout the year whenever anything's not quite right. If maintenance is done properly, annuals which find no discrepancies are not unusual.
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That is the approach I use. The only things I defer to annual are things that truly can wait and make sense to do at that point. Such as my oil lines. They were due soon so at this past annual I elected to do them at that point when everything is taken apart anyways.
 
GaryO said:
And some of us have repairs made throughout the year whenever anything's not quite right. If maintenance is done properly, annuals which find no discrepancies are not unusual.
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Yes, I agree, but I can show you a logbook that shows no work performed other than oil changes over a three year period. My point was that a logbook which doesn't show anything besides oil changes is probably telling you that the annuals are bogus.
 
RotaryWingBob said:
Yes, I agree, but I can show you a logbook that shows no work performed other than oil changes over a three year period. My point was that a logbook which doesn't show anything besides oil changes is probably telling you that the annuals are bogus.
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Yea, no repairs at all would be a big red flag.

I'll have to check the logs, but I don't think I've ever gone even 3 months without it going to the shop for something.
 
rcaligan said:
IMHO, I don't see mom & pop FBOs renting airplanes in the near future. Insurance has increased so much that they can't afford to maintain their fleet. Honestly, I don't care if the plane I'm flying has 10,000 hours on it and it was built in the 1960s, but I really want all of the equipment to work properly. I hate getting in with a new student and saying "this airplane does that" or replacing half a dozen "inop" stickers that were faded with age.

Then the FBO wonders why no one wants to fly.

So I'm thinking about picking up non-owners insurance and only teaching in privately-owned or club airplanes. Now I have never owned an airplane, but do most owners maintain their airplanes better than FBOs, or is it pretty much the same?
Click to expand...
The home FBO has been selling off their planes. I think they're down to 3 where they had 6 or 7.

They are all very well maintained.

AFAIK, the CFI and plane schedule is sill always full on the weekends.

What's gonna happen is, when you go into the FBO and ask "How do I get started?" The answer will be, "First, go buy a plane."
 
Having a Maintenance Shop which allows you to assist in the inspections can be a help to both you and the mechanics.

You will learn so much more about your aircraft, and this knowledge is extremely valuable. As you learn, ask a lot of questions. You may ask about something which possibly (hopefully not) got overlooked by the mechanic. As a little side bonus, depending upon how much you assist, you may even save yourself a few $$.

I have my 310 on lease back to the Pilot Center I used to teach at. When ever it is feasible, I get right involved in the inspection. I have learned so much about my plane, and in the course of doing so, I have gotten a real education in what items become critical and which can be deferred.
Though I am not an A+P, I was a car mechanic for a long time. So my basic mechanics skills can save me several hundred dollars. I perform all of my own 50hr inspections, with oversight of my mechanics. This also saves me a small fortune.
 
Although I rent rarely now, the FBO from which I rent maintains its planes well; all are (I think) on leaseback, and they would not allow a non-airworthy plane to fly. They also have a MX shop which does the maintenance, and are a well-respected shop.
 
SCCutler said:
Although I rent rarely now, the FBO from which I rent maintains its planes well; all are (I think) on leaseback, and they would not allow a non-airworthy plane to fly. They also have a MX shop which does the maintenance, and are a well-respected shop.
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The FBO from which I rent is similar. The shop, while no longer affiliated with the FBO, is on the same field and shares a similar name. (I believe they were once the same company.) The only complaint I've heard about the shop is that they are too thorough, finding anything wrong with a plane that needs fixing. Some will see this as thoroughness, others as trying to milk the customer. Depends on your personal bias. I've found that squaks are normally fixed quickly. The leaseback operation does mean that some optional items, like GPS updates, aren't consistent among the planes. :( But I've never felt that they would let a plane out that they didn't think was airworthy!
 
mikea said:
What's gonna happen is, when you go into the FBO and ask "How do I get started?" The answer will be, "First, go buy a plane."
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I had concluded that long ago. My current Student was exposed at a flying club, and then I simply said, "a man in your position buys an aircraft". He did.

But the ranks of potential pilots who can do this.....sigh. There WILL be fewer pilots in the future, you can bet on it.
 
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SCCutler said:
Although I rent rarely now, the FBO from which I rent maintains its planes well; all are (I think) on leaseback, and they would not allow a non-airworthy plane to fly. They also have a MX shop which does the maintenance, and are a well-respected shop.
Click to expand...
Leaseback situations in which the manager also runs a maintenance shop can be good -- for the shop owner. My leaseback in that situation inflated my maintenance costs by at least 500 percent -- and this on a 3 year old simple airplane.

If the airplane wasn't flying, they'd just haul it in an inspect something. Can you say "revenue stream"?
 
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