Rental cost research - Help Please

[ian_rand]

Hi - Don't know anything about personal planes/piloting, but it's been a dream for a while and I'd like to pursue it.

Pardon if this question is in the wrong place. I searched the FAQ, but came up with nothing (searched for “cost”, total cost, rental cost etc)

I am looking to compare time savings and total cost for short trips (2-3 hr flight time). While searching, kept getting links to here (such as this one http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090105202024AAxQq0D) which were helpful, but not specific enough.

Suppose one wanted to go from northern Houston 77382 to Padre Island, TX 78418. What would be the ball park total cost (I’ve heard of runway fees etc so please include all fees/costs)? My preference would be a 2 engine plane (Piper Seminole or something like that).

Of course there is a cost in getting a license etc…, but I am originally interested in cost per trip once one is past licensing costs and other one time costs.

I ask about cost because of budget. Anything around $1000 per 2-3 hr trip I can afford, but say $5000 is out of my range for such trips.

I’m also concerned about time savings. If one has to put up with the typical commercial delays and airport security hassles, then it’s also less attractive.

It’s about 4-5 hrs driving door to door assuming normal traffic. How much time would you save vs flying? When you use regional airports, do you go through the airport security hassle/slowness; can you really take off on time or are delays common as with commercial flights? I’d think this depends on the airport you chose? If so, please select airports in my travel points that minimize hassle/time waste (I’ve found DWH near 77382 and NWL near 78418 ).

Another destination of interest is 77382 to Destin FL 32541 with same questions as above.

What about 77382 to 87501 (Santa Fe, NM)? Is that too far to attempt on 2-engine small plane?

I’ll be at my destination for 3-4 days. I assume the plane just sits at the airport waiting for me (sorry, newbie here)?? If so, are there extra costs: storage, per-day wait surcharge?

Is there a 3rd party agent looking at the maintenance records for these rentals or pretty much I’m on my own? Or perhaps rental is discouraged for safety concerns?


Sorry if my questions are too many. Please advise if I should break them up into separate threads and I’ll be happy to do so. Your answers are greatly appreciated!

 

[jesse]

First off -- a multi engine plane is going to cost you double to three times as much as a single engine airplane to operate.

A single engine airplane you can travel in will cost somewhere between $100 to $200/hr typically.

Renting a multi engine airplane can be rather difficult. The ones you can rent aren't good for traveling or much of anything other then training. You're not going to want a Piper Seminole for cross country flights. You're going to want a Seneca, Baron, 310, or something of that class or larger.

That's all I have time for right now. Others will fill in with more detail.

 

[Ddayle]

I go to the airport and pull my plane out out the hangar. I fly VFR( visual flight rules) so no flight plan needed, I take off when i want, occasionally there will be one or two other planes i need wait for. Generally not very long(less than 5 minutes) I do use radar services from ground controllers who aid me in avoiding potential dangers. I use a plane for pleasure flights, so if weather is bad I just cancel or delay. the sweet spot in flying is trips that are too far in a car but still not overnight in a plane. I.E. I can fly to McMinnville to the water park in 1.5 hours. It is a 5-6 hour drive, meaning I would have to stay overnight to enjoy it. I spent $300 to round trip in a plane. $100 gas for a car (400 mile Rt) 3 hour total flight vs 10+ in a car. You can do your own math,a Piper Cherokee180 cost me $93 @ hour to operate, 140 mph , over the traffic & ground obstacles. For pilots weather is the problem , we have a saying, If you have time to spare go by air, 'cause sure as you PLAN on being somewhere on time , the weather says No F way. Dave .

 

[Henning]

Hi - Don't know anything about personal planes/piloting, but it's been a dream for a while and I'd like to pursue it.

Pardon if this question is in the wrong place. I searched the FAQ, but came up with nothing (searched for “cost”, total cost, rental cost etc)

I am looking to compare time savings and total cost for short trips (2-3 hr flight time). While searching, kept getting links to here (such as this one http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090105202024AAxQq0D) which were helpful, but not specific enough.

Suppose one wanted to go from northern Houston 77382 to Padre Island, TX 78418. What would be the ball park total cost (I’ve heard of runway fees etc so please include all fees/costs)? My preference would be a 2 engine plane (Piper Seminole or something like that).

Of course there is a cost in getting a license etc…, but I am originally interested in cost per trip once one is past licensing costs and other one time costs.

I ask about cost because of budget. Anything around $1000 per 2-3 hr trip I can afford, but say $5000 is out of my range for such trips.

I’m also concerned about time savings. If one has to put up with the typical commercial delays and airport security hassles, then it’s also less attractive.

It’s about 4-5 hrs driving door to door assuming normal traffic. How much time would you save vs flying? When you use regional airports, do you go through the airport security hassle/slowness; can you really take off on time or are delays common as with commercial flights? I’d think this depends on the airport you chose? If so, please select airports in my travel points that minimize hassle/time waste (I’ve found DWH near 77382 and NWL near 78418 ).

Another destination of interest is 77382 to Destin FL 32541 with same questions as above.

What about 77382 to 87501 (Santa Fe, NM)? Is that too far to attempt on 2-engine small plane?

I’ll be at my destination for 3-4 days. I assume the plane just sits at the airport waiting for me (sorry, newbie here)?? If so, are there extra costs: storage, per-day wait surcharge?

Is there a 3rd party agent looking at the maintenance records for these rentals or pretty much I’m on my own? Or perhaps rental is discouraged for safety concerns?


Sorry if my questions are too many. Please advise if I should break them up into separate threads and I’ll be happy to do so. Your answers are greatly appreciated!

Rental makes it easyto determine cost, length of trip divided by speed of plane times rental rate. In my 310 it would cost around $200. My all in costs can figure about $250hr. With the $500 an hour budget you can operate most cabin class twins.

 

[rbridges]

some places rent "dry" meaning you pay for fuel or "wet" meaning fuel is included in the price. Every airport is different. Most busier ones charge a ramp fee while a lot of smaller non-towered airports don't. The ramp fees are usually waived or reduced if you buy fuel. I'm not familiar with TX, but Hilton Head and Savannah charge around $20-30 ramp fees plus a daily fee if you stay overnight. Not a lot but just enough to be aggravating.

You may also need to check on renter's insurance. Some FBOs require you to purchase it before you can use their planes.

 

[N801BH]

Hi - Don't know anything about personal planes/piloting, but it's been a dream for a while and I'd like to pursue it.

!

First post..

Wecome to POA....

Pull up a chair and set a spell... :wink2:

 

[Skip Miller]

I generally find the time equation between driving and flying to be between two and three hours. i.e., if I can drive the trip in two and a half hours it will take just as long to fly it.

Why? Several reasons. 1) Driving to the airport may be backtracking a bit. A straight line from home to destination rarely goes through the airport.

2) Time to pre-flight and fuel before takeoff.

3) Tie down time, fueling at destination, checking in with the FBO, car rental procedure.

So flying entry level single engines (Cherokees, Skyhawks) on shorter trips, the adage "Time to Spare? Go by Air!" is true.

The more capable/faster planes as you move up just push the equal time point closer in. But you never recoup the time lost in points 1 - 3.

The further away you are going, an instrument rating will become more and more important.

-Skip

 

[Ghery]

I generally find the time equation between driving and flying to be between two and three hours. i.e., if I can drive the trip in two and a half hours it will take just as long to fly it.

Why? Several reasons. 1) Driving to the airport may be backtracking a bit. A straight line from home to destination rarely goes through the airport.

2) Time to pre-flight and fuel before takeoff.

3) Tie down time, fueling at destination, checking in with the FBO, car rental procedure.

So flying entry level single engines (Cherokees, Skyhawks) on shorter trips, the adage "Time to Spare? Go by Air!" is true.

The more capable/faster planes as you move up just push the equal time point further out. As you do that, an instrument rating will become more and more important.

-Skip

Depends on where that 2 to 3 hours is. 2 1/2 hours from home to the employers facilities east of Portland. KOLM to KHIO is about 45 minutes in a C-172. And, lucky for me, KOLM is on the way, so no back tracking. Counting preflight, etc, it is still faster than driving. The downside? The use of GA is prohibited for company business, so I drive if the trip came up too quickly to take the company shuttle, which flies the same route in about 1/2 hour (B-1900).

OP - welcome to POA. Stick around and you'll get all sorts of advice.

 

[oldShar]

Hi

What about 77382 to 87501 (Santa Fe, NM)? Is that too far to attempt on 2-engine small plane?

I’ll be at my destination for 3-4 days. I assume the plane just sits at the airport waiting for me (sorry, newbie here)?? If so, are there extra costs: storage, per-day wait surcharge?

Is there a 3rd party agent looking at the maintenance records for these rentals or pretty much I’m on my own? Or perhaps rental is discouraged for safety concerns?
!

Flying Texas to New Mexico is a fairly short hop -- and something you will HAVE to do in training --- on a single engine plane. It is not a problem.

If you are planning on "over-nighting" and renting, you can expect to have to pay 3-5 hours of flying time per day that you have the plane parked (typically 3 hours - maybe $450 per day on average) plus parking ($10-15 per day).

Yes, the owner of the aircraft will be responsible for the maintenance -- for rentals, that will typically be the FBO (airport flight office) that you rent from (and may be THE stumbling block, besides weather or other people demanding use of the plane, to having an aircraft available for rental for you to use).

The safety issue is largely a matter of how competent you are/become as a pilot. You CAN (potentially) be as safe as an airline flight or as deadly as being in a car on the street -- it's up to you and your attitude

 

[thegazelle]

There are several flight schools at DWH, so thats a plus.

Here is an example of what one of the FBOs charges:

http://www.unitedflight.com/rates.htm

I'm not affiliated with them, but they are one of the few that post their rates online, thought it would be nice to be able to price real world costs out...

Not that its truly pertinent at this point, but NWL, the prospective field you picked out, is restricted to navy training operations only, but there are others nearby that you could use.

If you are looking to guestimate the distance/time in the air, check out Skyvector.com .You can type in your start point, ending point, as well as the speed of the aircraft. It's not going to be 100% spot on for billing (for example, you don't go as fast on climbout), but it should definitely help you get started.

I fly out of Sugarland, and there are no overnight mins for aircraft rental (within reason I'm assuming). It is my understanding that most rental places are not anywhere near as generous (most have 3 hr min for each day you have the plane out)

 

[zaitcev]

First of all, forget two-engine airplanes for a while. The rental market is stacked so that you pay ridiculous amounts for them. My local twin is $258/hr (Henning quoted you $200/hr because he owns his C-310, but it's the ballpark). But is is only 15% faster than the single for $164/hr. But more importantly, as a beginner you'll find it difficult to qualify for a twin and hard to maintain the profeciency.

How much time would you save vs flying?

In our parts you aren't saving much time, plus you're paying through the nose for the privilege. I met a guy (Mike "Spanky" Galloway) who flies a Bonanza on business from a base in Dallas, all around Texas and parts of NM and OK. It can be done, but I'm sure he does it because he loves flying. My rule of thumb is that trainer is 1.5x speed of car, complex single is about 2x to 2.5x, and twin is about 3x. That is because we have freeways with 75mph speed limits. And outside of the car range, airline is going to beat you flat.

What about 77382 to 87501 (Santa Fe, NM)? Is that too far to attempt on 2-engine small plane?

Last time I went from Albuquerque, NM to Corpus Cristi, TX, I paid $2526 in rental fees. It was in a single-engine airplane. You can multiply that by the factor above if you want costs of a twin.

I’ll be at my destination for 3-4 days. I assume the plane just sits at the airport waiting for me (sorry, newbie here)?? If so, are there extra costs: storage, per-day wait surcharge?

Usually the FBO requires a 3-hour minimum per day, so you're looking at some $500 per day for a travelling single. I am stingy and this is a big amount of money, so I try to plan with minimum down time at the destination.

 

[JHW]

about a 4 hr drive is my cut-off to be worth the trouble of flying. Our closest family lives 7 hour drive (1:45 no-wind flight) away so it's an easy decision.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Hi - Don't know anything about personal planes/piloting, but it's been a dream for a while and I'd like to pursue it.

My first piece of advice: Just do it, and don't try to justify it so much!

You'll find that flying is more than just going places fast, though that's certainly nice. It's freedom, getting away from all the little annoyances of life for a while, getting to see amazing sights, meeting wonderful people... There's nothing else like it.

Suppose one wanted to go from northern Houston 77382 to Padre Island, TX 78418. What would be the ball park total cost (I’ve heard of runway fees etc so please include all fees/costs)? My preference would be a 2 engine plane (Piper Seminole or something like that).

First of all, you'll need a few hundred hours in single-engine airplanes before you'll be able to rent multi-engine airplanes... Unless you have so much money to burn that you want to pay an instructor to be with you for those several hundred hours in a multi-engine plane. (This approach will cost on the order of $100,000, so I don't recommend it.)

Also, it'll cost a lot more to rent a multi-engine plane, though you're in a good area for it - I found a couple of different places that rent twins in the neighborhood of $200/hour:

http://www.siegelaviation.com/Multi_Engine_Education.html
http://www.unitedflight.com/rates.htm

An Aztec will cruise around 150 knots, a Seneca around 160. However, with climb and maneuvering time and winds aloft you'll end up 10-20 knots slower on average. Add to that the time you'll spend on the ground, and I would suggest that for planning purposes, you divide the trip distance by 140-ish for the Seneca and then add 0.3 hours for ground time on each flight.

So, for a trip to Padre it looks like KRAS is probably the best/nearest airport, though Corpus Christi Int'l is also an option depending on ground transportation considerations. That's 157 nautical miles direct. Using the assumptions from the previous paragraph, that means it'll take you about 1.2 hours from startup to shutdown, or about $246 each way in the Seneca. That seems to fit well within your $1000/trip budget.

However, many/most rental facilities will charge a minimum of 2 hours per day on their airplanes, so if you're going and staying for 4 days, instead of paying for the 2.4 hours you flew, you'll pay for 8 hours ($1640). Be sure you ask about that when you're considering where to rent an aircraft from.

Alternatively, you can buy your own airplane. Be aware, though, that the break-even point for owning vs. renting is generally around 150 hours/year. But, if you want to do these shorter-flight, longer-duration trips often, that really tips the scales in favor of owning.

I’m also concerned about time savings. If one has to put up with the typical commercial delays and airport security hassles, then it’s also less attractive.

As it's pretty unlikely that you'll hijack yourself , you don't have to deal with the TSA directly on every flight. Different airports have different security procedures in place that fit the type of flying done at that airport. For the most part, there's nothing you need to do on every flight - They will have checked you out prior to letting you rent their airplanes, so once they know you, you'll simply walk in and they'll hand you the keys. In most cases, you'll have your engines turning 15-20 minutes after you arrive at the airport and be in the air in another 10.

If you own the airplane, procedures vary. I have a key to my hangar and the code to the gate to get onto the airport, so I drive right up to the hangar, pull the plane out, hop in and fly. That's pretty typical.

It’s about 4-5 hrs driving door to door assuming normal traffic. How much time would you save vs flying?

See above - Add the drive time from your home to the airport and from the airport at the other end to your final destination, and some "schlepping" time, so figure maybe 2.5-3 hours plus drive time on this trip.

When you use regional airports, do you go through the airport security hassle/slowness;

No - You won't be going through TSA checkpoints, as that kind of security is really pretty irrelevant to private flying.

can you really take off on time or are delays common as with commercial flights?

Many delays with commercial flights are related to traffic levels going into the hub airports. I've done most of my flying out of Dane County Regional (KMSN) and I'll often hear ground control say "Eagle Flight 1234, taxi to the north holding area, expect clearance in 55 minutes" or that sort of thing for an airplane that's going to O'Hare, but I never have a takeoff delay because, well, I never go to O'Hare or any of the other big hub airports. If you do choose to fly to them, you'll be subjected to a lot more delays, fees, etc.

I’d think this depends on the airport you chose? If so, please select airports in my travel points that minimize hassle/time waste (I’ve found DWH near 77382 and NWL near 78418 ).

KNWL is a Navy facility, you won't be able to use it. As I mentioned above, your closest options for public-use airports are Port Aransas and Corpus Christi.

Another destination of interest is 77382 to Destin FL 32541 with same questions as above.

From KDWH to KDTS (Destin, FL) is 471nm, figure 3.3 hours ($677) each way in the Seneca. These mid-range trips are where you'll see the best time savings from flying yourself. Preflight, taxi time, getting to the airport, etc. means that if the drive is only 1-2 hours, you're not likely to see much of a time advantage to flying. For longer trips, flying yourself is the fastest way to get there. For really long trips (say, going from Houston to Seattle or Boston) the airlines start to gain an advantage in time, and of course they're cheaper as well. (I think that is the entire list of advantages to the airlines, though! )

What about 77382 to 87501 (Santa Fe, NM)? Is that too far to attempt on 2-engine small plane?

KSAF is 626nm from KDWH, or about 5.2 hours ($1066) each way in the Seneca. You may need a fuel stop, but you can certainly do it - Nothing says you have to complete the trip non-stop, and you may discover some neat place halfway there with a nice restaurant or something - Who knows, that's part of the fun of flying is discovering new places!

The Seneca, specifically, can come with either 93 or 123 gallon fuel tanks and burns about 22 gph total. A 5-hour trip with the smaller tanks is out of the question. With the larger tanks, a 5-hour trip leaves you with about the minimum legal fuel reserve for daytime fair-weather flying, *if* there's no headwind. So, unless there's a tailwind you'll probably want a fuel stop. But how far do you drive in your car before you stop to stretch your legs? Probably also less than 5 hours. So for a trip of this length, you'll want to plan a stop along the way - Halfway puts you somewhere in the neighborhood of Abilene.

I’ll be at my destination for 3-4 days. I assume the plane just sits at the airport waiting for me (sorry, newbie here)?? If so, are there extra costs: storage, per-day wait surcharge?

Yep, you can leave the airplane sitting parked outside, generally there'll be a fee per overnight with the first night free if you buy fuel. For a single-engine plane, it's usually $5-10 per night, for the twin it'll probably be $10-20 per night at most airports. In addition, as mentioned above, if you are renting you'll likely have a minimum per-day charge - If you go to Santa Fe for 3-4 days you probably won't have to pay anything extra, but for the short trips you'll probably have to pay for more than what you fly if you're planning on renting an airplane instead of owning your own.

Is there a 3rd party agent looking at the maintenance records for these rentals or pretty much I’m on my own? Or perhaps rental is discouraged for safety concerns?

No 3rd-party "agents" but most rental facilities are doing flight training, and part of a checkride is to show the examiner that the airplane is airworthy - That annual inspections have been completed, airworthiness directives complied with, and that sort of thing. That provides a bare minimum level of safety. If you're really concerned about it, you could hire a mechanic and request that you be allowed to look through the maintenance logs with him, but I don't think that's really necessary.

Really, the first step should be to take a discovery flight at a couple of different flight schools in your area and see how you like them.

Also, if you'd like to look at aeronautical charts and plan flights, take a look at http://skyvector.com/ or if you have an iPad or iPhone download the ForeFlight app (or if on Android, I've heard Naviator is a good choice). These will be helpful tools to you in flight training and as a certified pilot as well.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

And outside of the car range, airline is going to beat you flat.

Only on price, unless you're talking about really long distances.

My sister lives in the Houston area, and I think the door-to-door time between there and Wisconsin is about the same between GA and the airlines. That's over 1200 miles driving (1217 for the shortest route according to Google Maps, 1249 for the route I'd actually take), or 879nm flying (KMWC-KEFD).

Driving: 2 days (21+ hours plus an overnight).
Flying GA, in the Mooney: 8 hours, including drive time to/from the airports, preflight/taxi time, and a fuel/food stop halfway there.
Airlines: 8.5 hours including drive time to/from airports, layover, security, and other associated airline BS. (I base this off the first ticket that came up in my search.)

So, still looks pretty good for GA, if you don't look at the price tag.

 

[JHW]

So, still looks pretty good for GA, if you don't look at the price tag.

compared to 4 airline tickets the price isn't bad either

 

[Gubbins]

Some good questions, welcome and I remember having similar questions myself.

First of all, I would say that you should get into flying ONLY if you REALLY want to do it as a hobby, because it is going to be very difficult to justify it as a cost savings in most cases.

Having said that, the biggest appeal for me personally is the time savings for certain length trips. Every commercial trip has a certain amount of wasted time driving to a big airport, going through security, boarding, then on the other side perhaps waiting for baggage, organizing transportation, etc. Where flying yourself saves you is reducing all the extra non-flying time to, in my case, a 5-10 minute drive to my hangar (no security), relatively short pre-flight, start up and off you go. On the other side, again very quick very often if you've booked a rental car it will be waiting for you plane side shortly after shutting down. That's good for 2-3 hours saving. Now the middle bit depends on the speed of plane you get. That will determine the length of trip that makes sense from a time point of view.

So in my case, I will fly myself from Dallas to New Orleans or Santa Fe myself, enjoy it, and generally save time. Sometimes I will fly further just for fun, but it starts to make less sense from a money or time saving point of view.

The question about twin engines... I'd love to get there myself, but the cost can be daunting. One of the biggest expense items owning a plane is the damn engine. It costs a lot to maintain and fix if it breaks, and it drinks a lot of expensive fuel. Times two in a twin! Of course it goes faster but not twice as fast. It doesn't really make a lot of sense for the short hops you're talking about. Unless of course YOU REALLY WANT ONE, in which case go for it

 

[Jaybird180]

You can use www.airnav.com to find airports near your starting and destination. 1/2way down he page on the right you can get distance.

Calculate time in hours by dividing distance by speed. Multiply hours by rental costs then you have the basis for feasibility.

Have fun.

 

[zaitcev]

Driving: 2 days (21+ hours plus an overnight).
Flying GA, in the Mooney: 8 hours, including drive time to/from the airports, preflight/taxi time, and a fuel/food stop halfway there.
Airlines: 8.5 hours including drive time to/from airports, layover, security, and other associated airline BS. (I base this off the first ticket that came up in my search.)

It's not working this way between Albuquerque and Monterey, despite the need to switch planes in SFO. I remember how I was sitting in SFO while United was delaying, delaying, and delaying, and even so flying Arrow would not get me in any sooner. And don't forget the most important part: airlines have much greater weather resistance. Well, in my case I would land short, in Salinas, and take a car from there, due to the marine layer and not being instrument rated.

Of course if the guy makes good on this desire to fly a twin, he can rearrange the equation quite a bit, especially if he gets IR. This is different from tooling around in M20E though.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

It's not working this way between Albuquerque and Monterey, despite the need to switch planes in SFO. I remember how I was sitting in SFO while United was delaying, delaying, and delaying, and even so flying Arrow would not get me in any sooner. And don't forget the most important part: airlines have much greater weather resistance. Well, in my case I would land short, in Salinas, and take a car from there, due to the marine layer and not being instrument rated.

Of course if the guy makes good on this desire to fly a twin, he can rearrange the equation quite a bit, especially if he gets IR. This is different from tooling around in M20E though.

It's a bit more difficult out there, since you have lots of rocks and R-areas to duck around. Looking at a route I'd actually fly on that trip, it added 30nm or so. I would guess at 5.1 flight time in the M20R, but I'd probably want a fuel/rest stop so add another hour. How long does it take on the airlines?

Also, an instrument rating is essential to having the vast majority of your trips completed when you want... That can make a huge difference in the time savings.

 

[ian_rand]

My first piece of advice: Just do it, and don't try to justify it so much!

You'll find that flying is [...] freedom, getting away from all the little annoyances of life for a while, getting to see amazing sights, meeting wonderful people... There's nothing else like it.

Agreed!! And great post. I appreciate the detailed answers and links.

I guess I should have been more specific: flying is a dream of mine even if it's just going up in circles and landing just where you started.

But it's nice to know that you can also fly over all the traffic at 200+ mph when they're bumper to bumper below you!

As several have pointed out, the twin engine is probably not the right thing for me presently. Please disregard that bit.

I went ahead and called a local rental place asking for an estimate on my trip to Corpus Cristi. Good people. In short, they come close to a number of estimates here and yes there will be a charge for keeping the plane over night; total cost they estimate at $555 having the plane for 3 days with 2 night stay at my destination. They'll give me a more concrete quote once I select more details for my trip.

It will take a while, but this is certainly feasible and it looks like it will be tons of fun.

 

[Henning]

Flying Texas to New Mexico is a fairly short hop -- and something you will HAVE to do in training --- on a single engine plane. It is not a problem.

If you are planning on "over-nighting" and renting, you can expect to have to pay 3-5 hours of flying time per day that you have the plane parked (typically 3 hours - maybe $450 per day on average) plus parking ($10-15 per day).

Yes, the owner of the aircraft will be responsible for the maintenance -- for rentals, that will typically be the FBO (airport flight office) that you rent from (and may be THE stumbling block, besides weather or other people demanding use of the plane, to having an aircraft available for rental for you to use).

The safety issue is largely a matter of how competent you are/become as a pilot. You CAN (potentially) be as safe as an airline flight or as deadly as being in a car on the street -- it's up to you and your attitude

On long trips I have not had I be an issue as I'd fly 12-15 hrs on the flying days.

 

[NineThreeKilo]

Anyone mention that the flightschool might not be cool with letting a high performance plane go on very long, both in time and distance, trips??

Second thing is there really arnt any FBOs that rent anything like what would work best for this type of mission, you probably need something like a lanceair, or glassair for this to even make any sense, high speed to fuel burn ratio, with a good service ceiling.

If this is for important meetings you REALLY don't want to rent, what happens when lil Billy is trying to get his license the same time that you need the plane to go to XYZ?

If you are also going to be going on these long x-countries you will NEED a instrument rating as well and you will need to keep proficient.

So, factor in at least 60k for a plane and 18k in training, before we bother with how much it would cost to go here and there, you have AT LEAST $78k to burn?

 

[zaitcev]

Anyone mention that the flightschool might not be cool with letting a high performance plane go on very long, both in time and distance, trips??

FBOs exist in major markets that rent for such trips. Their prices are crazy, but they exist. It's not something commonly found among country bumpkins, of course, because the FBOs are puny even in decently sized country towns. In Albuquerque they only have one "high performance" XC single for 600,000 people, and it's often used by students. But in Miami Oppa-Loka they have a flight line full of Cirruses - pick any one and fly to Mexico for a week if you like.

Ian is near Houston, which may just be big enough to sustain, say, an FBO with a few Cirrii and an Arrow.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Anyone mention that the flightschool might not be cool with letting a high performance plane go on very long, both in time and distance, trips??

I beg to differ - Most of the high performance planes on rental lines that I've seen get far less use than the trainers, as they don't make sense to rent UNLESS you're doing long (time/distance) trips. So that's all they get used for, and I'm sure the FBO is happy to get some time on them.

Second thing is there really arnt any FBOs that rent anything like what would work best for this type of mission, you probably need something like a lanceair, or glassair for this to even make any sense, high speed to fuel burn ratio, with a good service ceiling.

Are you kidding? A 182 would work just fine for this mission. And even a Lancair or Glasair isn't going to be cheaper than driving or flying the airlines. It also sounds like the OP has a good handle on what the budget will be like. It's easy to get under $1000/trip with many airplanes.

If you are also going to be going on these long x-countries you will NEED a instrument rating as well and you will need to keep proficient.

Here, we agree! While Texas isn't probably the first place people think of with a lot of actual IMC weather, I live very far away yet I have some actual logged in Texas... And the further afield you go, the more likely you'll run into crummy weather somewhere along the way.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

FBOs exist in major markets that rent for such trips. Their prices are crazy, but they exist. It's not something commonly found among country bumpkins, of course, because the FBOs are puny even in decently sized country towns. In Albuquerque they only have one "high performance" XC single for 600,000 people, and it's often used by students. But in Miami Oppa-Loka they have a flight line full of Cirruses - pick any one and fly to Mexico for a week if you like.

They do exist - Wisconsin Aviation at KRYV in Watertown, WI, population 23,861, has a Saratoga and TWO SR22's for rent, among others.

Ian is near Houston, which may just be big enough to sustain, say, an FBO with a few Cirrii and an Arrow.

Probably. Since he was interested in a twin, I went looking and found a Seneca, an Aztec, and a Geronimo Apache for rent, just at the one field nearest him. Of course, if you read the whole thread, you'd probably know that already.

 

[NineThreeKilo]

.....
Are you kidding? A 182 would work just fine for this mission. ...

Are you saying a 182 would be anywhere near the same class of x-country machine as a lancair at 190kts and 7.5gph, with a ceiling that will take you into the Alpha without breaking a sweat?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Are you saying a 182 would be anywhere near the same class of x-country machine as a lancair at 190kts and 7.5gph, with a ceiling that will take you into the Alpha without breaking a sweat?

I'm saying that compared to driving, they both are way better.

And yes, personally, of the two, I'd pick the 182. Sure, it burns more fuel and isn't as fast. But, it hauls more, has a better safety record, and I don't have to build it or trust that the guy who did build it did it right.

Are there better machines for the job? Heck yeah. I'd take the Ovation over the 182, too... I'm just sayin', your assertion that you need a Lancair or Glasair for this mission is way off base and that MANY airplanes will fulfill it quite nicely.

 

[John221us]

Just take a "discovery" flight. One little hit. It won't hurt at all. Don't worry about how much all this is going to cost. You'll work that out later, after all, it's the dream.

 

[Henning]

Are you saying a 182 would be anywhere near the same class of x-country machine as a lancair at 190kts and 7.5gph, with a ceiling that will take you into the Alpha without breaking a sweat?

The Lancair airframe is a slick and efficient airframe for the job for sure, but it is not for everyone. I'd probably stick a bigger engine in it. Make sure you have the MkII tail.

 

[ian_rand]

I went looking and found a Seneca, an Aztec, and a Geronimo Apache for rent, just at the one field nearest him.

Wow - those are awesome machines. Saw pix in wikipedia. Where did you find them for rent? I guess I'm being dumb with my searches... having no luck finding them.

Do you really think one could fly them for $1000/trip?

I must point out that I had a case of 'running before walking' when speaking of double engines (perhaps even running before crawling). Sorry; unrealistic at my level, but the again one is allowed to dream

...so, for my case the question is really how long will it take me to to fly a Seneca etc... I have the time and the $7-9k to get a PP license (single engine fixed wing of course). I think I can put in 2-3 hrs weekends and 1-2 hr weekday night. How much more time and $$ in training to get to the Seneca would you estimate?

 

[Jaybird180]

No one ever said you couldn't get your PPL in a twin.

 

[zaitcev]

No one ever said you couldn't get your PPL in a twin.

Of course you can get a Private in a twin. Even a turboprop twin (reduce volume):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhUO4pdGCf8

 

[numl0ck]

No one ever said you couldn't get your PPL in a twin.

That must make for one loooooonnggggg checkride.

 

[AuntPeggy]

Hi - Don't know anything about personal planes/piloting, but it's been a dream for a while and I'd like to pursue it.

Welcome to PoA. We enjoy meeting new and potential pilots. And we enjoy helping them along.

Pardon if this question is in the wrong place. I searched the FAQ, but came up with nothing (searched for “cost”, total cost, rental cost etc)

There is no wrong place to ask questions here.

I am looking to compare time savings and total cost for short trips (2-3 hr flight time). While searching, kept getting links to here (such as this one http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090105202024AAxQq0D) which were helpful, but not specific enough.

I hate to say this, but flying is expensive. So, my question to you is, "Why?" Why are you making the flights? Why do you want to fly instead of drive? Why is cost a factor? I'm not trying to be difficult, just trying to feel out what's important to you.

My Hubby and I decided to fly because we hated using airline schedules and because we thought that we had better control of delays. Turned out that we have better control because we are the ones deciding on the delays instead of the airline. Still, we like it that way. What we never expected was to find out how much we really enjoy flying. You may end up feeling the same way.

Suppose one wanted to go from northern Houston 77382 to Padre Island, TX 78418. What would be the ball park total cost (I’ve heard of runway fees etc so please include all fees/costs)?

That's a pretty short flight and easily doable after you get your license. How many people would you take? How much luggage or equipment? What would be the purpose of these flights. How important will weather delays be for you?

Anyway, to your question, the cost of flight for a light aircraft is probably around $1.50 to $2.00 per mile to rent. That includes the fees. Most airports don't charge parking fees. Most of those that do will waive the fees if you buy fuel. If you own, the upfront cost of buying a new plane and paying for a hangar or tie-down at your home airport will be in the neighborhood of the cost of a house. Closer to the cost of a new car for a really old plane. Then, there are the annual inspection and maintenance costs, which costs a lot more than you expect. Gas mileage for a plane is slightly worse than for a SUV and costs $1.00 more per gallon.

My preference would be a 2 engine plane (Piper Seminole or something like that).

Why?

Of course there is a cost in getting a license etc…, but I am originally interested in cost per trip once one is past licensing costs and other one time costs.

I ask about cost because of budget. Anything around $1000 per 2-3 hr trip I can afford, but say $5000 is out of my range for such trips.

I’m also concerned about time savings. If one has to put up with the typical commercial delays and airport security hassles, then it’s also less attractive.

It’s about 4-5 hrs driving door to door assuming normal traffic. How much time would you save vs flying? When you use regional airports, do you go through the airport security hassle/slowness; can you really take off on time or are delays common as with commercial flights? I’d think this depends on the airport you chose? If so, please select airports in my travel points that minimize hassle/time waste (I’ve found DWH near 77382 and NWL near 78418 ).

The smaller the airport, the fewer unneccesary delays. If you are arriving or departing from the same airport as commercial airlines, you can expect delays, but not from TSA.

Delays are usually caused by weather or maintenance. Wind, rain, fog, cloudy skies, thunder and lightning that you would not mind driving through will stop your flight. If one of the radios or engine parts or even the do-jigger knob is not working correctly, it has to get fixed before you can go.

Another destination of interest is 77382 to Destin FL 32541 with same questions as above.

What about 77382 to 87501 (Santa Fe, NM)? Is that too far to attempt on 2-engine small plane?

I fly from New York to California in a single-engine four-seat aircraft. My flight legs are 3-4 hours long and cover 300 to 400 miles. When in a hurry, we can get 3 legs into a day, but sitting for 10 hours at a stretch is quite a workout for the old upholstery. So, it usually takes about 3-4 days.

I’ll be at my destination for 3-4 days. I assume the plane just sits at the airport waiting for me (sorry, newbie here)?? If so, are there extra costs: storage, per-day wait surcharge?

Transient overnight tie-down fees range in the $5 to $25/day for a single engine aircraft. Twins are usually more.

Is there a 3rd party agent looking at the maintenance records for these rentals or pretty much I’m on my own? Or perhaps rental is discouraged for safety concerns?

Renting is fine. The owner/operator is required to maintain the aircraft. You will be taught how to inspect the airplane before flight and if you are lucky or if you insist on it, you will be taught how to examine the logs. You should insist upon it.

Sorry if my questions are too many. Please advise if I should break them up into separate threads and I’ll be happy to do so. Your answers are greatly appreciated!

You are doing fine.

Welcome to PoA.

 

[JHW]

That must make for one loooooonnggggg checkride.

did my first solo and got my first license in a C-337. It's just an airplane, albeit a poor one in that particular case.

 

[Z06_Mir]

did my first solo and got my first license in a C-337. It's just an airplane, albeit a poor one in that particular case.

I would think that getting it in a 337 would be different from any other twin. After all in a case of only a single engine failing you don't have the yaw/roll risks associated with a standard twin.

 

[dell30rb]

I would think that getting it in a 337 would be different from any other twin. After all in a case of only a single engine failing you don't have the yaw/roll risks associated with a standard twin.

You'll have 'centerline thrust only' printed on your MEL certificate until you re-test

 

[jpower]

You'll have 'centerline thrust only' printed on your MEL certificate until you re-test

Not anymore, apparently. They've done away with it, I think.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Wow - those are awesome machines. Saw pix in wikipedia. Where did you find them for rent? I guess I'm being dumb with my searches... having no luck finding them.

Follow the links in my first post on this thread.

Do you really think one could fly them for $1000/trip?

If you can talk them out of the common daily hour minimums (usually 2-3 hours per day), yes. If not, you'll be spending a bunch of money for not a lot of flying and may want to consider buying your own.

...so, for my case the question is really how long will it take me to to fly a Seneca etc... I have the time and the $7-9k to get a PP license (single engine fixed wing of course). I think I can put in 2-3 hrs weekends and 1-2 hr weekday night. How much more time and $$ in training to get to the Seneca would you estimate?

Well, what you want to do is just get the Private in the first place (Private Pilot - Airplane Single Engine Land, often abbreviated here as PP-ASEL). Then, use it! They want you to have something like 350 hours for one of the twins that I saw the requirements for, but that doesn't mean 350 hours of training - They want you to have some real-world experience.

The next thing you'll want is your instrument rating. Do this in a single-engine plane as well.

When you're done with your instrument, then consider the multi-engine rating. By that point, you should be able to get it done in about 10 hours. You'll need to demonstrate mostly the same maneuvers as you did with the single-engine plane, but you'll also need to shut down an engine and show them that you can fly with an engine out, plus do an instrument approach with both engines running and one with an engine out.

So, get started with the PP-ASEL, and go out in the world and enjoy it while doing some of your trips in a single-engine plane. Then, add on the Instrument and Multi when you're ready for more training.

Have fun and fly safe!