rent or buy for training and leaseback?

Blueangel

Line Up and Wait
Joined
Jan 5, 2015
Messages
813
Location
San Diego
Display Name

Display name:
Scott
Hi guys,

Right now I am considering buying a cheap trainer like a Piper Archer or Cessna 172 for my instrument rating and then lease back to a local flying club. Is this a great way to help offset the aircraft training costs or would I be in better spot renting? I do want to then get my commercial and CFI rating so I have also considered a less expensive retract like a Piper Arrow or Cessna 172RG to use and lease back to a club. Just trying to put the numbers down on paper to make sense of whether I am in better financial position to buy and use for training and lease back to a club or just to keep renting.
 
I like the buy and lease back,you can't go wrong with the two retracs. If you own the aircraft there are no scheduling problems.
 
If you can afford it, the leaseback is a good idea.

Things to consider:
Maintenance expense will go up because it needs 100 hour inspections and will get abuse from students.
Your plane may not be available when you want to use it because it is rented to someone else or because it is maintenance. (See note above.)
You might only get enough payback to cover maintenance and insurance. (See first note.)
 
Awesome thanks. I am thinking of setting up an LLC for the leaseback part to keep the aircraft separate from personal assets. I spoke with a few local FBO in San Diego and they have a high demand for rentals due to large number of Asian student pilots training in the area. So figure buy a Cessna 172 and Piper Arrow that way have both areas covered. Later on when I have my ratings if I want or need a faster plane then I can step up to something like a Beechcraft Bonanza or Cessna 210. I have been checked out on the Bonanza and other fast planes but they do not rent enough at flying clubs to be cost effective and my mission right now is training and local flights 100-500 round trip so no need to spend double on an expensive retract at this point.
 
I've heard 172N leasebacks at PlusOne do very well and I can believe it as they can be tough to rent despite having a dozen in the club. Even others do well, too, obviously the more expensive the model the less it flies.

You usually won't need to do the 100hr inspection although many owners still do it, and I think it's smart for planes that fly so often.

As you can see fro PlusOne site, we do have a few more expensive planes like a 205, Aztec, a couple Bonanzas, and some Ciruses. While they don't fly anywhere near that often, some people find other advantages to having them in the club, like insurance and other costs. Also many of them have a small list of those who can fly them, like the SuperCub.
 
Excellent I'm thinking of getting a 172N and Arrow since that will easily meet my flying needs for the next few years and still less expensive than a used Cirrus. Not as fast but I'm flying for fun and not in a rush. I'm only needing something later on to get over mountains between California en route to Arizona and New Mexico.
 
1. Maintenance cost goes up
2. You schedule just like everyone else
3. You have no control over who rents it and what they do to it
4. Insurance. Assume 3X (or more) if you were the sole user.
5. What is the split between you and the company?

It's not always a good deal. If it were, everyone would put their airplanes in a lease-back.
 
The best summary of this issue I've seen came from the (in)famous Jason Hegel (known elsewhere as "He who must not be named"), and is quoted below by permission of the author:

Captain Jason’s Leaseback Advice:

1. Leasebacks are a business, always treat them like one. Never get emotionally attached to a leaseback airplane, it will get abused just like a rental car does, and you don't go seeking those out when you buy a used car, do you? Put leaseback aircraft in corporations, run their books separately, have a separate tax return for the aircraft each year, etc. Talk to your CPA and lawyer, make sure you understand both the legal and tax issues.

2. You can make a lot of money with a leaseback. You can lose a lot of money with a leaseback. Many of the factors of making/losing money are completely outside of your control. If your goal in a leaseback is to have someone else pay for your personal airplane, you probably are not going to be happy with the result. If your goal is to defer the cost of your own flying, get your ratings, and perhaps make some money on the side, you can do well if you pick the right FBO/flight school to do business with.

3. If you leaseback an aircraft to an honest FBO, you have a chance to do well. If you leaseback an aircraft to a crook, you have no chance at all. Get to know with whom you are doing business. Ask around the airport, talk to the other owners, etc. Be careful of any FBO that pushes you to get into this too quickly. The best will be honest and upfront about the risks and will caution you to avoid it if you have doubts. Talk to other owners at the FBO, find out how they have been treated.

4. You must run the numbers from a realistic viewpoint, remember this is a business. Take what you're paid each hour by the FBO and subtract the per hour costs such as fuel and maintenance reserves (if you don’t, that $15,000 engine is going to surprise you). That figure is your actual hourly income (the rest does not exist for this calculation) Take the monthly fixed costs and divide them by that "true" per hour income. That is the number of hours the aircraft must fly each month to break even. The monthly fixed costs must include insurance, tie-down, and the "payment", even if there is no payment on the aircraft. The cash you might pay for an aircraft has value, if you don't include it in the monthly fixed costs, you're letting the FBO use your money for free. So add in what the payment would be if you had one.

5. You're still a renter, you just rent one specific aircraft for a reduced rate, but you're still a renter and must schedule your flights along with everyone else. Do you have the right to bump paying customers? If so, how much notice must you give? If you are inclined to "bump" paying customers for your own flying very often, you're probably a poor leaseback candidate. You'll upset those customers and you'll be hurting your own income stream. Find out about renting other airplanes at the FBO for a discounted rate if your plane is down, or otherwise busy. Everything in a leaseback is negotiable, so ask!

6. The standard leaseback agreement is the basic 80/20 plan. You get 80% of the per hour rental rate, the FBO gets 20%. Out of your 80% you pay fuel, insurance, tie-down, maintenance, and the "payment" for the aircraft (again, this has nothing to do with actually having a bank loan or not, it is the monthly value of the money invested into the airplane). Some FBOs do leasebacks differently, and if you run across one of them, be really sure of what they are offering before you sign on the dotted line.

7. FBOs like leasebacks because it removes all the risk from them. They get 20% of the rental rate, yet do not have to own or maintain a fleet of airplanes (and sometimes they make money off the maintenance). You absorb all that risk. In exchange for that risk, you have the chance to make some money, and you'll be able to fly for about half the price of renting (or less).

8. The best leaseback deals are on aircraft that fly a lot of hours each month. A Cessna 172 that flies 80 hours a month will almost always make money. A Piper Arrow that flies 20 hours a month will almost always lose money. The breakeven point on most single engine airplanes is around 50 hours and the leaseback becomes really worth doing from a profit perspective at 65 hours. I know of a case where a Piper Arrow was leased to a flight school and it flew 60 hours over 8 months. The owner lost a lot of money in insurance and maintenance. I also know of a case where a Cessna 172 was leased to a flight school and it flew an average of 87.2 hours a month over a 12-month period, the owner made a fair amount of money that year.

9. Don’t put a brand new airplane on leaseback, they lose too much value the first few years and are very quickly not new anymore when on a rental line. An example is the 1999 172SP I bought. I paid $124,000 for it with a fresh engine installed. It would cost about $209,000 to buy that plane new, in its current configuration (in 2004). Since even a new plane looks used very quickly on a rental line, I saved $80,000 (or about 1/3 the price) in exchange for having 2,200 hours already on the airframe. Those hours do not affect the rental rate. There is one exception to this rule however, and that is the new 50% bonus tax deduction signed into law by President Bush. If you have a need for a $150,000 tax deduction this year, buying a brand new 172SP for $209,000 does make sense, because of the unusual tax benefits offered by the new law.

10. Only do a leaseback if you can afford to own the airplane without the leaseback. Used aircraft can be expensive the first few months you own them. Don't expect to take anything home the first six months. People who already have money seem to do well with leasebacks. Those who really cannot afford an airplane in the first place seem to do poorly. These are generalizations of course, but there is an old saw that says it takes money to make money.

11. Buy the right aircraft, the right way. You can do everything else right, but if you buy the wrong aircraft or pay too much, you'll lose every time. This doesn't mean pick a Cessna 172 over a Piper Warrior, this means pick the right Cessna 172 or Piper Warrior. Some airplanes just shouldn't be leased back. A Mooney or Bonanza are good examples. Very old airplanes often make poor leasebacks as well. The only airplane older than about 25 years I'd leaseback would be a Cessna 150. You want something reliable with a known history. Avoid the very high time and very low time airplanes. Avoid an airplane that hasn’t flown much recently. An airplane that has had 500 hours put on it in the past 10 years will have a lot of things break when the flight school puts 500 hours on it in 6 months. I’ve seen this happen to others and it happened to me with my 172N.

12. You must sometimes spend money to make money. People want to rent airplanes with nice interiors and good panels. If the per hour rental rate is equal, would you rather fly in a Cessna 172 with ARC radios and no GPS, or a full Garmin panel? The new panel and a new interior might add 20% to the price of the airplane but double your monthly profit.

13. Look over the past two years records of similar airplanes at the FBO you’re looking at doing business with. Not just the total hours flown, but how much has been spent on maintenance and how much total income there was after all costs. There is no more honest way to see what to expect than to look at the real world figures from existing aircraft on the FBOs rental line. Do not leaseback to anyone who won't show you the records on the existing airplanes and introduce you to the other aircraft owners.

14. Think long and hard about why you're doing this. Many people get into leasebacks for all the wrong reasons, make sure you're doing it for the right reasons. A leaseback can make sense for some people, it can be a disaster for others. It generally isn't a good way to go about having someone else pay for your own personal airplane, since it will wear faster and not be cared for as well as if it were your own. In addition, you're limited in what you can do with it, given that you still have to schedule it and can’t take it very far without it costing you a lot in lost income. It can however provide you with your ratings, some money, and some low cost flying if managed well.

15. To sum it up, a leaseback is often used to reduce the cost of flying, sometimes it is used to make money, sometimes it is used as a tax shelter (consult your tax advisor on this one). The months I did a lot of personal flying, I tended to break even, and have lost money a few months, but then if you consider what my flying would have cost otherwise, I came out way ahead. If you can't afford to own regardless of the leaseback income, consider that you're making a serious commitment and while it is very easy to buy a plane, it can be hard to sell one.

For the record, I had three aircraft on leaseback with two different flight schools at Addison. A 1977 Cessna 172N, a 1999 Cessna 172SP, and a 1997 Schweizer 300CB helicopter. I did well with the older 172 and the helicopter, the 172SP mostly broke even, but I did fly it about 100 hours personally without paying a dime, so it wasn’t too bad. I earned my commercial and CFI license in both airplanes and helicopters, flew almost 500 personal hours between all the aircraft, and came out $36,000 ahead at the end of the day. I sold them once I was done flight instructing, and have since bought a Piper Twin Comanche for my personal use. I considered leasing it back, but choose not to because I want it available to fly whenever I want to go, one thing that isn’t possible with a leaseback.
 
It can be great or awful, lots of variables, the biggest one being if you are doing most of the maintenance work. I know a lot of guys who have done leasebacks, and in general the ones that are happy with it are A&P IAs; or the ones who aren't, are in an arrangement where the operator pays all costs and maint, everything, and they get 20-25% of the hourly back for the plane.

The biggest issue I hear about is the maintenance costs, and the big risk is that when times are slow, if the operator needs some money your plane becomes a profit center for their maintenance shop.

Be careful and vet the people you are going to do business with well.

Oh yeah, always remember, this is not "your baby", it's a business asset, it's going to get used up.
 
Last edited:
I did leasebacks twice on two different airplanes in two different cities. In my case, I did only a little better than break-even financially and my airplanes got beat up. All in all, I was not particularly enamored of the arrangement.

The maintenance costs were very high. And tires and brakes. Lots of tires and brakes. Ripped upholstery -- seats, but also sidewall pockets and that sort of thing.
 
If you can afford it, the leaseback is a good idea.

Things to consider:
Maintenance expense will go up because it needs 100 hour inspections and will get abuse from students.
Your plane may not be available when you want to use it because it is rented to someone else or because it is maintenance. (See note above.)
You might only get enough payback to cover maintenance and insurance. (See first note.)

What I've seen on many lease back arrangements on helicopters is the leasee pays for fuel, insurance, and maintenance. The lessor collects a set fee per hour usually $250 -$300 per hour.
 
Last edited:
What I've seen on many lease back arrangements is the leasee pays for isurance and maintenance. The lessor collects a set fee per hour.

Those are the ones to avoid unless you're at least an A&P.
 
So the take away is finding the best reputable FBO to lease back or not to go that route.
 
So the take away is finding the best reputable FBO to lease back or not to go that route.
Read Jason's paper again -- very slowly, and very carefully. The fact that an FBO is reputable is necessary, but not sufficient to make a leaseback good for you.
 
Wilco thanks guys for the prompt replies and insights. At this point I'll probably buy a 172 or Arrow to complete my ratings in then trade up later for something faster like a Bonanza or 210.
 
I've been on both sides (both a lessor and lessee) in the leaseback markets. Ron's list is pretty good, but I'll distill it down to you: LEASEBACK is NOT a way to reduce costs of PERSONAL ownership. If you want to be in the aviation BUSINESS, you can look at leaseback.

If you want the plane to train, buy it (or lease it). You will spend more money (insurance is going to be TRIPLE for example) to have it on the lease line than if you (and your instructor) are the only pilot.

Owning rather than renting for flight instruction has its pros and cons. It will be MORE expensive to OWN, but you have the advantage that YOU determine when the plane is available. Nobody else is beating on the thing. You can leave your headphones etc... in it.

One other option is to find a few like minded people and go in on the plane together. This again has its pros and cons.
 
Back
Top