Redbird Sims

[Flying_Nun]

Reading this AVweb article (http://www.avweb.com/avwebbiz/news/Redbird_Migration_Training_207557-1.html) in conjunction with thinking about the IR got me wondering.

Have any of you used a Redbird Sim (full motion, specifically)? If not, would you use one for part of your training? What would be a draw to use one?

According to their site, there's not one within 500 miles of me to even check out.

 

[dukeblue219]

I did about 20 hours in the full motion red bird for my IR last fall and this spring. I did mine part 61, and we loosely followed a plan of "learn in the sim, demonstrate in the air." So, for example, we'd do a ton of holds in the simulator one day and then next week fly a cross country IFR somewhere and try to squeeze in an actual hold while still practicing all of the other elements of IFR flight.

I felt like it was a better way for me to learn without the expense and stress of trying to do it in the air the first time. As a result, we didn't really have any "wasted" flights where some concept didn't stick. If I wasn't getting it we could just pause the sim and talk about it for a while. Most of the flying time was more akin to "real world" practice, making use of the tools I'd learned in the sim, much of it in actual IMC too.

Of course, we still did everything in the plane eventually, it's just that most of the early training where you're learning brand new flying, new charts, and new approaches can be learned at your own pace in the sim. Once you're decent enough at them they can be refined in the air.

 

[NineThreeKilo]

I've given some instruction in the redbird fmx. It's based off MS flight sim and the full motion is more of a annoying gimmick. Great for teaching IFR work when it's a VFR day outside and you can't get any IMC time. You can also set up all sorts of failures, which is nice.

Personally a frasca for a redbird, sims are a great way to practice failures and for days when you can't get into IMC in the plane.

 

[Dan Thomas]

I've given some instruction in the redbird fmx. It's based off MS flight sim and the full motion is more of a annoying gimmick.

That it is. I get woozy in it, and the Redbird guys said that about 20% of folks will do so. The motion can be turned off. Its movement is small, especially in yaw, but is enough to induce vertigo to convince a student that he can't rely on his sense of balance at all.

The wooziness comes from the conflict between the inner ear and eyeballs. Just taxiing it can do it. If you turn right, for example, your eyes see the horizon staying level but the machine tilts left to simulate the centrifugal force of a right turn. Your inner ear detects the roll to the left but this doesn't agree with what the eyes see, and nausea can result.

It get exciting in an aggressive slip.

Dan

 

[iflyblog.com]

That it is. I get woozy in it, and the Redbird guys said that about 20% of folks will do so. The motion can be turned off. Its movement is small, especially in yaw, but is enough to induce vertigo to convince a student that he can't rely on his sense of balance at all.

The wooziness comes from the conflict between the inner ear and eyeballs. Just taxiing it can do it. If you turn right, for example, your eyes see the horizon staying level but the machine tilts left to simulate the centrifugal force of a right turn. Your inner ear detects the roll to the left but this doesn't agree with what the eyes see, and nausea can result.

It get exciting in an aggressive slip.

Dan

This can happen in the large sims too, especially when the instructor repositions it. They usually have you close your eyes so you don't get vertigo. It's easy to screw with each other by taxiing around.

 

[flyingmoose]

This can happen in the large sims too, especially when the instructor repositions it. They usually have you close your eyes so you don't get vertigo. It's easy to screw with each other by taxiing around.

I have to close my eyes when they reposition it or I get all lazy eyed! I don't really like to taxi them either


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[Flying_Nun]

I did about 20 hours in the full motion red bird for my IR last fall and this spring. I did mine part 61, and we loosely followed a plan of "learn in the sim, demonstrate in the air." So, for example, we'd do a ton of holds in the simulator one day and then next week fly a cross country IFR somewhere and try to squeeze in an actual hold while still practicing all of the other elements of IFR flight.

This is what I was thinking. Practice procedures in the sim, then go fly them. How much time did you get in the plane? Do you think that was reduced by the sim time?

Unfortunately, the sims available at my home airport are nowhere near the quality of the Redbirds.

 

[NineThreeKilo]

....
Unfortunately, the sims available at my home airport are nowhere near the quality of the Redbirds.

To be honest, the redbird isn't really anymore quality then MS flight sim with the fancy USB controlls, it's all the same really, it teaches procedures not flying, the redbird just comes in a fancy wrapper.

As long as the FAA blesses it with their wholLy water so you can count the hrs it's all the same.

As for the learn it in the sim, practice it in the plane, ehhh, remember most flight schools have MUCH more of a profit margin putting you in the sim vs a plane.

 

[dukeblue219]

This is what I was thinking. Practice procedures in the sim, then go fly them. How much time did you get in the plane? Do you think that was reduced by the sim time?

Unfortunately, the sims available at my home airport are nowhere near the quality of the Redbirds.

I don't have the numbers handy, but I definitely didn't do my 40 hours of simulated/actual IMC in the airplane. I think I did 20 in the simulator and 25 in the plane, most of which was under IFR, about 10 of which was in IMC-ish conditions, though I think I only logged about 5 hours of true actual IMC.

 

[dukeblue219]

To be honest, the redbird isn't really anymore quality then MS flight sim with the fancy USB controlls, it's all the same really, it teaches procedures not flying, the redbird just comes in a fancy wrapper.

Yeah, the motion didn't do anything for me as far as realism. I certainly never felt disoriented or anything in the simulator. It was more about the procedures and I learned to just ignore any "feel" of the sim.

As for the learn it in the sim, practice it in the plane, ehhh, remember most flight schools have MUCH more of a profit margin putting you in the sim vs a plane.

I guess you're suggesting that the school would promote this even if it wasn't ideal? I think it's up to the pilot -- I was completely in control of my training and if I had wanted to pay for the time in the plane nobody would have complained certainly. If anything, I think I spent more time in the sim than most students. Might be different with 141 type places that are more structured.

It's not just the money, too. I can spend 90 minutes at the airport and log 1.0 of instrument training while flying many approaches. If I was flying it would be more time committment prior to going to the airport, then probably 3 hours total at the airport for 1.2 hours or so and 2-3 approaches tops. I found it much more compatible with work, so I wasn't taking half the day off in order to train during the week.