recommendation of parachute brands wanted

Damn peanut gallery... These glider people are merciless :D

We'll miss you at Gaston's, but I guess that just adds another reason to make it down to visit with the KS/MO crew.
 
Jeanie, yes Burt is a great resource, do you have his ctc info?
Also we have a master rigger living a few miles away. Not sure if he does it anymore but if not he is a wonderfully helpful fellow and will patiently explain all...Chuck Smith.
We should go for a jump, I have been to Skydive El Paso at 5T6 Dona Ana NM and I heard some jumpers on the Midland radio a couple weeks ago, maybe Stanton (where I did my only jump, a tandem) is open again.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Pilots are pretty much the only ones still using round parachutes. Even the Army is replacing rounds for paratroopers. The linked to pilot rig has a steerable ramair parachute detuned for inexperienced jumpers. Ramair parachutes are just inefficient wings doesn't take black magic to fly them. Ignore the fear talk most pilots parachute knowledge is based on what was current technology in WWII. If you are buying new the price difference isn't that much.
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For an emergency rig, to be used by a pilot with no training, during unpredictable circumstances what would be the advantage of the 'chute you're recommending?

The advantage of my Butler is that it's been tested at 408 lbs popped at 205 kts and didn't suffer any popped panels or other malfunction. Can your ramair 'chute do that? All Butler chutes have the highest airspeed and weight ratings of any FAA TSO Authorized emergency parachute canopy, period.

If you're going to do acro, you should seek out people that fly acro and are also master parachute riggers with thousands of jumps and get their advice before you listen to some of the stuff that's been posted here. Consider the source and if they've got experience asking a chute to do what you'll potentially be asking yours to do. These round canopy 'chutes have saved a lot of lives and are very well tested for this kind of application. It's irresponsible to say that you'd be "dumber than a stone" to follow in the advice and experience of those people.

http://www.butlerparachutes.com/
 
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Dave: We should go for a jump, I have been to Skydive El Paso at 5T6 Dona Ana NM and I heard some jumpers on the Midland radio a couple weeks ago, maybe Stanton (where I did my only jump, a tandem) is open again.

Me: Sounds good to me Dave - I'm going to fly a Decathlon this Friday and Saturday in Lubbock and will have a better feel about what I"m planning to do. I'll be in touch
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Pitts Driver: If you're going to do acro, you should seek out people that fly acro and are also master parachute riggers with thousands of jumps and get their advice ....

Me: I talked w/ Allen Silver today at some length. Have a plan in place now.
 
Diana said:
Yep, and typically I figure even less fuel for aerobatics with two people.
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Hi Diana,

So.... How did you fit all of that gear into your Citabria that I saw on the grass when you were unpacking at Gastons? I was very impressed by how much it carried.

Sorry you won't be at Gastons this next round.

Jeanie
 
These people are selling outdated technology at damn near the same price as modern equipment. They haven't kept up and are selling 60 year old technology to customers with 60 year old knowledge of what works. Square parachutes do everything better. And yes even a pilot can fly one.
Sorry for the long links I couldn't cut and paste from google books. Go have look see there is pretty damning evidence on round parachutes. Book was written in 1991 almost twenty years ago round reserves were known as a solution whose time has past. It is sad that many pilot rig manufacturers are still selling the outdated technology to people that don't know any better.

http://books.google.com/books?id=1j...=round reserve parachute malfunctions&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=2P...onepage&q=round reserves malfunctions&f=false


PittsDriver said:
For an emergency rig, to be used by a pilot with no training, during unpredictable circumstances what would be the advantage of the 'chute you're recommending?

The advantage of my Butler is that it's been tested at 408 lbs popped at 205 kts and didn't suffer any popped panels or other malfunction. Can your ramair 'chute do that? All Butler chutes have the highest airspeed and weight ratings of any FAA TSO Authorized emergency parachute canopy, period.

If you're going to do acro, you should seek out people that fly acro and are also master parachute riggers with thousands of jumps and get their advice before you listen to some of the stuff that's been posted here. Consider the source and if they've got experience asking a chute to do what you'll potentially be asking yours to do. These round canopy 'chutes have saved a lot of lives and are very well tested for this kind of application. It's irresponsible to say that you'd be "dumber than a stone" to follow in the advice and experience of those people.

http://www.butlerparachutes.com/
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Jeanie said:
Hi Diana,

So.... How did you fit all of that gear into your Citabria that I saw on the grass when you were unpacking at Gastons? I was very impressed by how much it carried.
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Wheel pants are 14 pounds...that's one reason we leave them off. We have less fuel when we have lots of stuff, and when I do aerobatics.

Jeanie said:
Sorry you won't be at Gastons this next round.
Jeanie
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Thanks. :)
 
Jeanie said:
Me: I talked w/ Allen Silver today at some length. Have a plan in place now.
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Could I ask what he recommended for your emergency parachute?

Gregg, the links you posted look to be all about skydiving reserves. Not the same animal. In acro, we need a emergency system that will deploy consistently when we bail out at very high speeds and potentially without the full use of our hands and arms after deployment. We will have just had an airplane come apart at potentially some very high G loads and might be hitting the relative wind at over 200 kts or at near zero airspeed and we'll be very disoriented. Companies like Butler in particular, have solved the problems described in the links you posted with tangled lines and have created a system that will deploy very quickly at low speed and yet in a very controlled fashion at very high speeds.

We're also very concerned about the weight, size and shape of the emergency parachute system we're wearing. Aerobatic cockpits are very tight and every ounce counts against us in performance. The shape of the container that's right for any given pilot and aircraft combination is something that's been sorted out through many years of refinement.

In the case of Butler and others that design parachutes specifically for this application, extensive research has been put into testing and while I'm no master rigger or have the thousands of jumps myself, I think it's prudent to put my faith in this kind of product vs. something from the sky diving community.
 
The old no longer used round skydiving reserves are the same as current pilot rigs. With the exception of Butlers, his is slightly different put a slider on a round parachute-guess where he got that idea? Square parachutes perhaps. How many jumps have been put on his novel test canopy? Hundred? Couple of hundred? Millions have been put on squares. The detuned square canopies land slower than rounds without any input, much slower with input. Think of round parachutes as ADFs sure they work, at one time they were the best solution, but that time has long passed, and it passed for round parachutes before it passed for ADFs. Sean Tucker wears a square emergency parachute.
 
Pitts Driver: Could I ask what he recommended for your emergency parachute?

I'm fairly small. 11 inches across the shoulders and 20 inches from where my neck meets my shoulders to a hard chair. 5'2" tall/130 lbs. Allen recommended the micro softie filled at the heavier amt. 220 lbs I think. It increases the bulk to 2.5 inches- provides more cushion and slower descent is my understanding. And he suggested I use the normal H harness than the fancy acro harness on it for various reasons all which made sense.
Apparently he supplies Sean Tucker -- perhaps he has different types for different levels of expertise/need.
 
Jeanie said:
Pitts Driver: Could I ask what he recommended for your emergency parachute?

I'm fairly small. 11 inches across the shoulders and 20 inches from where my neck meets my shoulders to a hard chair. 5'2" tall/130 lbs. Allen recommended the micro softie filled at the heavier amt. 220 lbs I think. It increases the bulk to 2.5 inches- provides more cushion and slower descent is my understanding. And he suggested I use the normal H harness than the fancy acro harness on it for various reasons all which made sense.
Apparently he supplies Sean Tucker -- perhaps he has different types for different levels of expertise/need.
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the same recommendation he made for Leah, who has about the same dimensions.
 
ClimbnSink said:
The old no longer used round skydiving reserves are the same as current pilot rigs.
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The round/versus square reserve debate is like opening up a conversation on religion. In the interests of full disclosure, I used a square reserve (and yes by that I mean I used it) -- however a round deserves its following.

My understanding (which is a bit dated) is that the deployment speeds are about the same, the gross failure rates are about the same, however in the case of a round the malfunction will often leave you with something survivable. A square depends on symmetric relative wind to inflate properly. A line-over on a round might result in a harsher landing but your friends still get to sign your cast. If you are jumping frequently in a complicated landing area a square reserve provides you the advantage of steerability and a softer landing.

I had never heard of a single canopy system offering you a square?

I used a square simply becuase I was hoping my most recent orthopedic surgeries were still under warranty. I did wind up using it once but I will assure you I was less interested in finessing a stand-up landing at that point.

However, if you mind the descent rate that Dudley mentioned (your parachute salesman will simply ask you how much you weigh with your pockets full) it will be a survivable touchdown. Your rigger can even teach you the basic parachute-landing-fall that helps you absorb a hard thump.

Todd
 
Jeanie said:
However, I broke my ankle a year ago and am still stiff with it - sure wouldn't want to injure myself again trying to be "careful"
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I did a Tandem as my first jump a long time ago (actually I was kind of a "test passenger" as part of one of the first pre-drogue systems). I walk with a limp and would rate my ankle strength as slightly better than brittle glass.

In my case the instructor had me pull my legs up at the last instant so that he bore the brunt of the landing. I imagine that George Bush senior gets similar treatment.

I don't know if a sport jump is absolutely necessary to be a prepared acro- pilot but it is an absolute blast. You can do a tandem with very little training, or there are more advanced options (including a high altitude freefall on your own harness with two instructors hanging on) if you want to keep jumping.
 
I suggest you find some acro pilots at your local IAC chapter who fly the same plane as you, and get their opinions about comfort as well. Most of the time you will be sitting on the container, and if it gets uncomfortable, it can stop being fun very quickly. I also went from a micro softie to a mini for this very reason, for better back support. This is probably more important than the actual canopy, whether round or square. Our local master rigger was of the opinion that a round might open a little faster than a square, which could be a factor in a low altitude deployment. Almost all of the reserve canopies are conicals and not round, and do have steering toggles. The actual harness also makes a big difference as well- I never cared for the cross body acro harness, since I think they would be hard to get out of in case of a water landing. On the other hand I went for the quick release toggles, which can be heavy and can be uncomfortable under the acro seat belt when inverted or pushing g's. Finally, take a look at the containers themselves (which is actually what the parachute makers manufacture). I liked the fact that the Paraphernalia container flap opened up completely, rather than some other brands, which left part of the chute covered in back. Just a small point. Lastly, speak with the various makers at a place like Oshkosh, I got the best vibe from the guys at the Paraphernalia booth, and they gave nothing but great service (Dan Tarasevich). Do some personal research and then make up your mind as to what is fact, personal preference, or sales pitch.
 
Rigging innovations makes a pilot rig with a square reserve. When I was shopping for one I'd heard Paraphenalia made one as well but it wasn't listed on their website and I always liked Rigging Innovations skydive rigs. There is no longer a debate (except among pilots) on round vs square. Squares are more reliable, open faster, and have more consistent deployment times. The only advantage to rounds are they 300 bucks or so cheaper. If you ever seen both fly and land you'd gladly pay the 300 bucks. That said rounds work and the likelihood of using pilot rigs is fairly small so they it will likely work out and if you are shopping used pilot rigs you aren't likely to find a square go with what you can afford. If you are buying new go square. One other thing some might have noticed is some parachute centers no longer have the room(rounds should be packed on a long dedicated table, squares just need a medium sized room) or the knowledge to pack rounds you will eventually either live somewhere with a pilot rig specialist or you will be mailing your rig for repacks. The debate amongst people that use parachutes is over rounds lost if you are buying new square is the only way to go.
Happy New Year.

twdeckard said:
The round/versus square reserve debate is like opening up a conversation on religion. In the interests of full disclosure, I used a square reserve (and yes by that I mean I used it) -- however a round deserves its following.

My understanding (which is a bit dated) is that the deployment speeds are about the same, the gross failure rates are about the same, however in the case of a round the malfunction will often leave you with something survivable. A square depends on symmetric relative wind to inflate properly. A line-over on a round might result in a harsher landing but your friends still get to sign your cast. If you are jumping frequently in a complicated landing area a square reserve provides you the advantage of steerability and a softer landing.

I had never heard of a single canopy system offering you a square?

I used a square simply becuase I was hoping my most recent orthopedic surgeries were still under warranty. I did wind up using it once but I will assure you I was less interested in finessing a stand-up landing at that point.

However, if you mind the descent rate that Dudley mentioned (your parachute salesman will simply ask you how much you weigh with your pockets full) it will be a survivable touchdown. Your rigger can even teach you the basic parachute-landing-fall that helps you absorb a hard thump.

Todd
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Re: recommendation of parachute brands wanted (funny story)

I'll add one funny anecodote to the skydiving thread. My first jump was a tandem in the eighties with one of my college roomates. He is the fellow on the left - a lot of common sense, headed for the Navy. They had an abbreviated first jump course to prepare you for the skydive.

At one point I asked if you would ever cling to a malfunctioning main parachute reasoning that two broken legs might be preferable to the uncertainty of cutting away for the reserve. As you can imagine this is a very dangerous train of thought and the fundamentals-of-skydiving-instruction demands that the teacher get you crisply back on track.

He was right in my face with the direct "your reserve always works, I packed your reserve myself, the freebag design eliminate many failure modes, it sits up high on your back ... your reserve always works"

He was pretty stern about it.

So Newt raises his hand and says "well if it always works, why don't we just pull it first then ..."

Even the instructor had to laugh.
 

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Thanks guys for the interesting info and posts. I flew the decathlon this past weekend. Just got home an hour or 2 ago. Did get to do some aerobatics the second day - the first day was all landings and regualr maneuvers. I wore a long softie and it was actually OK. It had a seat portion to it that's really just a pad. It felt a little like walking around with a full diaper B) But hey, in the plane it was quite comfie.

I had a blast and am leaning towards going for it - that is getting a decathlon. But first I need to go back to Lubbock and do some more practice in that plane. I got 5.5 hours... a good beginning but ... Oh, and the first morning the wind was 60 deg. Rt. at 13 Wheeee.

Is there an AA group?? Aerobatics Anonymous - I think I'm hooked.


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Todd: that skydiving anecdote with the "then why don't we just pull the reserve first" comment reminds me of George Carlin saying if the Black Box with the flight tapes from an airliner is always intact why don't they just make the plane out of that?
 
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Jeanie said:
Todd: that skydiving anecdote with the "then why don't we just pull the reserve first" comment reminds me of George Carlin saying if the Black Box with the flight tapes from an airliner is always intact why don't they just make the plane out of that?
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Because the interstates aren't wide enough. :no:
 
Jeanie said:
Thanks guys for the interesting info and posts. I flew the decathlon this past weekend. Just got home an hour or 2 ago. Did get to do some aerobatics the second day - the first day was all landings and regualr maneuvers. I wore a long softie and it was actually OK. It had a seat portion to it that's really just a pad. It felt a little like walking around with a full diaper B) But hey, in the plane it was quite comfie.

I wear the Long Softie in the Hiperbipe and think it is as comfy as any parachute could be. I like the bottom cushion section that curves into the backpack.
With my seats and long legs (I'm 6'1") I have the seat all the way back with my 'chute on. When I fly without my chute I have a 2" cushion that I insert into the back of the seat upolstrey and a 1" seat cushion to mimic the bottom of the Softie. These two simple cushions do a couple of things for me; (1) sitting on the chute OR the cushions I get the same sight picture all the time which I think helps my consistency (now all my landings are crappy...:mad2:) and (B) I don't have to fuss with changing the Acro harness(s) all the time!

Could have done without the "full diaper" comment...there goes my "I'm a Macho pilot on my way out to do battle with gravity" feeling I got when climbing into my plane under the gaze of lessor mortals.
Thanks.:rofl:

I had a blast and am leaning towards going for it - that is getting a decathlon. But first I need to go back to Lubbock and do some more practice in that plane. I got 5.5 hours... a good beginning but ... Oh, and the first morning the wind was 60 deg. Rt. at 13 Wheeee.

Is there an AA group?? Aerobatics Anonymous - I think I'm hooked.

Yep; once addicted to Vitamin "G" abandon all hope...

Chris (former Macho Pilot with a full diaper)
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Hi Chris,

Sorry about the diaper reference.... Just wipe it clean :D from your mind and you can be Mr. Macho Acro Guy again.... Replace it with the thought of Top Gun and F-16s ( or F whatever they were),,, maybe it would help if you put "Danger Zone" on your I Pod and listen on your way across the ramp.... :yesnod:

I have actually ordered a softie backpack one with no cushion underneath. I think I'll be able to see over the cowl on the ground even without the extra cushion.

What is a hiperbipe?
 
Ahhhh, I looked at the pic on the link you sent and it is an odd looking plane. Looks seriously zippy. Hyper Bipe seems like a good name for it
 
Capt. Thorpe: Beauty is in the eye of the Beholder. And I do admit to barely passing my eye test last time but Damn Old Boy, that was rude! BTW; is that Captain Blood in your Avatar?


Jeanie said:
Hi Chris,

Sorry about the diaper reference.... Just wipe it clean :D from your mind and you can be Mr. Macho Acro Guy again.... Replace it with the thought of Top Gun and F-16s ( or F whatever they were),,, maybe it would help if you put "Danger Zone" on your I Pod and listen on your way across the ramp.... :yesnod:
F14's m'dear.
I have actually ordered a softie backpack one with no cushion underneath. I think I'll be able to see over the cowl on the ground even without the extra cushion.
Those are nice too... Did you get it from Allen?.

What is a hiperbipe?
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Only the mostest,bestest,funnest air-o-plane on the whole dang Planet!
The Hiperbipe is the SNS-7 (Sorrell Negative Stagger #7 in the series). Full Laminar flow wing section for speed, 4' wide fuselage in an airfoil shape to help with lift (around 30% they say). Stall @ 65mph, cruise @ 155-165 and a VNE of 225mph! 4 full span flaparons for a roll rate like a Pitts S2A. Comfy and stable for Cross Country with 39 gallons usable in two tanks; the acro tank is 13 gallons and the main is 26 and shoulder width of 46". With the IO360 200HP dialed back to 9.5 gal/hr @ 155mph range is pretty good!
Acro is fun (stressed +6/-4) and nice control pressures. Mine has both a full inverted oil and a 7gal. smoke oil tank. Though she's heavier than an S2A she gets back in lack of drag what she loses in weight. I can out-vertical a pitts 2-place with the same motor from a 4G/160 pull!
7HT comes in at 1250 empty, 1690 acro and 1960 gross so with full fuel you still have 475# usefull load.
Joanne Ostrund still holds the Guinness Book of Records spot for most outside loops while flying Hiperbipe 774HB (which sadly came to grief during an airshow when the motor quit low-level...after mowing down dozens of trees and branches the pilot climbed out un-hurt! Damn strong plane!)
200 kits were made and sold. 53 are all we (the Hiperpeople) can find so there are full kits out there.
All in all it's a really fun airplane that is inexpensive (as acro birds go), dual mission capable and a real attention getter. The best examples go for less than $50K.
Throw in the fact that I do all my own work on her and the costs are fairly low (again; for a 2 place acro bird) for a bird with this much Fun-Factor and Pazzaz!
Was this too much??? A wee bit Gushy and Over-the-Top??

Chris

http://www.marksorrellco.com/earlydays.htm
If you look at the bottom photos you'll see 7HT readied for it's maiden flight in August of 1982. 777HT was actually built mostly by the "Factory" as a demonstrator. Such was the reputation of the Sorrell Brothers work that the WA FSDO required a 5 hour fly-off period for the airplane which was done during a weekend at their 1300' grass strip.
 

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Yes, I ordered the chute from Allen.... My husband and I were just in Shreveport... sorry I didn't know about you and your hiperbipe then I'd have dropped by to see it in person and maybe get a ride. Good pics.
 
Hiperbiper said:
Capt. Thorpe: Beauty is in the eye of the Beholder. And I do admit to barely passing my eye test last time but Damn Old Boy, that was rude!
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Ok, But I did admit that it was on my short list at one time, eh?

A lot depends on what angle you look at it from.


BTW; is that Captain Blood in your Avatar?
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Close. If you figure it out, you won't have to ask if you got it right :D

Only the mostest,bestest,funnest air-o-plane on the whole dang Planet!
The Hiperbipe is the SNS-7 (Sorrell Negative Stagger #7 in the series). Full Laminar flow wing section for speed, 4' wide fuselage in an airfoil shape to help with lift (around 30% they say).
<...>
All in all it's a really fun airplane that is inexpensive (as acro birds go), dual mission capable and a real attention getter. The best examples go for less than $50K.
Throw in the fact that I do all my own work on her and the costs are fairly low (again; for a 2 place acro bird) for a bird with this much Fun-Factor and Pazzaz!
Was this too much??? A wee bit Gushy and Over-the-Top??
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Naah. It is a pretty interesting design. Nice that you are enjoying it so much.

Interesting link, thanks.
 
Pretty plane. Looking at it from the rear it makes me think of a canyon wren or something the way the tail goes...... Someone near PA will be getting a nice looking plane for a hyperbipe :)....
 
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