Real world holding

[cherokeeflyboy]

I am preparing to take the Ground Instructor-Instruments and Instrument-Airplane knowledge exams. Looking at holding I became curious as to real world holds. If you are given instructions to hold at a non published hold, do the controllers take into mind the winds as to how you are to hold. ie: hold east, hold west, etc.seems to me if you could be inbound or outbound with the wind pilot workload would decrease. Obviously I have not done this in the airplane yet. That will start at the end of the Year. Any thoughts?

 

[Fast n' Furious]

ATC could care less. It's your problem Mr Pilot. ATCs job is to separate traffic and occasionally throw up a road block (holding). Last non published hold I got from ATC, after I read the clearance back, I added "obviously for controller amusement".

 

[Dave Siciliano]

With radar over most of the country, separation seems to done as much as possible with speed/route adjustements. That being said, weather or other delays can back things up. I haven't received a tratitional hold for years. When D/FW was backed up for weather couple years ago, they just turned me north for about 20 miles and brought me back.
Going into Cozumel, Mexico in July (non-radar) they told me to be prepared to hold as published on the VOR/DME One to Runway 11, but in the descent we broke out VMC and they brought me in.

I certainly agree with John, Center doesn't seem to consider winds when giving holding instructions.

Dave

 

[Earthroamer]

I unlike Dave, have been getting the short end of the stick. I have done two holds in the last two days. One was up in Jackson Hole waiting on VP Chaney to depart in his 757 which was late on the TFR. The other was weather and they were stacking a/c's up and shooting them down the approach. Normally, Dave is correct, they just slow you down enroute.

Brent

 

[Everskyward]

I think it's interesting how they put the bullseye TFR circle right over his house in Jackson. If you didn't know where he lives, now you do. Or maybe it's a decoy.

Radar coverage isn't that great in this part of the country so we sometimes have to hold to wait for someone to depart or to shoot the approach ahead of us.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

.seems to me if you could be inbound or outbound with the wind pilot workload would decrease.

atc cares about pilot workload?! j/k. don't expect any consideration for winds. you can however reduce your load by asking for getting longer legs. One thing that I noticed that helps me is rarely are holds a big surprise unless you are first guy on the scene... usually you hear people ahead getting them; also I have always gotten lots of warning unlike training ("ok we are 3 miles from the fix, hold sw on the 258 radial non std turns, 2 mi legs" wha, what?). Its more like 15 mins out, "expect holding w the next controller at lisse, houston has a tz over the field"
Three holds I can remember lately; white house types, temporary convective weather, someone blocking a runway.
dont forget to report entering the hold!

 

[gismo]

I am preparing to take the Ground Instructor-Instruments and Instrument-Airplane knowledge exams. Looking at holding I became curious as to real world holds. If you are given instructions to hold at a non published hold, do the controllers take into mind the winds as to how you are to hold. ie: hold east, hold west, etc.seems to me if you could be inbound or outbound with the wind pilot workload would decrease. Obviously I have not done this in the airplane yet. That will start at the end of the Year. Any thoughts?

First, I doubt that ATC cares much about your workload or exactly where the wind is coming from at your altitude. Second, I'd rather have a hold aligned with my ground track coming into the hold than one straight into the wind any day.

 

[waldo]

One thing that I found that GREATLY helps me in holding is to use my handheld GPS to correctly establish for wind correction by watching the GPS "tracking". With the wind correction quickly figured out it's easy to hold a perfect pattern.

Fly Safe,
Waldo
N7064W

 

[gismo]

One thing that I found that GREATLY helps me in holding is to use my handheld GPS to correctly establish for wind correction by watching the GPS "tracking". With the wind correction quickly figured out it's easy to hold a perfect pattern.

Maybe, but my first attempts with GPS were problematic. Eventually I figured out that you can't fly the recipricol track outbound when there's a crosswind. The GPS does make tracking (and intercepting for that matter) inbound awfully easy, but you still must angle away from the radial when outbound in a crosswind that pushes you towards the radial and vice versa. IOW you can't fly nice parallel side racetracks in any crosswind if you use standard rate turns.

FWIW, I tried to find a simple rule of thumb that would give the outbound course needed for a "perfect" holding pattern, but with strong winds there seems to be no simple formula. Once the wind exceeds a third of your TAS, the angle of the wind has more effect than the velocity, and the worst case is a quartering tailwind on the outbound leg that pushes you towards the inbound course (radial).

An example:

TAS= 120. Wind = 30@045.
Holding south on the 180 radial, 1 min leg rt turns.

Inbound course = 360. Inbound heading = 010.

Reqired outbound course = 139 (course correction angle = -41)

BTW the outbound heading would be 124 with a total correction of -56 degrees. This is almost double the ROT based "3 times the inbound correction" which would be -30.

 

[Eamon]

I got assigned a hold last night.
ATC said "Houston isn't taking the hand off, what do you want to do?"

Me,... how about a hold somewhere?

ATC.. Where would you like to hold? Sabine pass?

Me.. How about DIRKR (the nearest intersection)

ATC... OK, East or west...

Me... east

ATC ....ok 5 mile legs ok?

Me ...ok

It was like a comedy routine. I didn't bother to ask R or L turns, I knew he didn't care.

I rarely get a hold in the real world.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

ATC said "Houston isn't taking the hand off,

What the heck does that mean, Eamon??

 

[HPNPilot1200]

What the heck does that mean, Eamon??

That means that Houston (ARTCC I assume) is not accepting the handoff of the aircraft due to workload or other co-ordination taking place with other controllers.

 

[spiderweb]

That means that Houston (ARTCC I assume) is not accepting the handoff of the aircraft due to workload or other co-ordination taking place with other controllers.

I think he was being facetious.

 

[waldo]

Maybe, but my first attempts with GPS were problematic. Eventually I figured out that you can't fly the recipricol track outbound when there's a crosswind.

You will still have to correct for winds. In my Cherokee 180 I start with 1 deg of correction for every knot of x-wind.

Example: Hold west (270 deg) of the xyz vortac. Winds are out of the south at say 10 kts.

You enter the holding pattern, after crossing the vortac make a standard rate turn to the right. Upon getting established outbound you would track (270 +/- wind correction of 10 deg) 260 degrees in this case will work just fine. Now track 260 deg for 1 minute. Make a standard rate turn to the right. The wind, comming from the south will push you pretty darn close to your inbound leg of 90 deg. Of course you would track your VOR needle inbound and repeat the procedure. If you find yourself too far south when turning inbound then fly the next outbound leg at 265 deg. If you are too far north when turning inbound then adjust your outbound leg to 255 deg. Remember that the wind does change speed and direction at different altitudes so you will always have some minor adjustments to make while in the holding pattern.

Try this method next time you are doing some holding, I bet you will see a big improvement even if you don't use your GPS for tracking. I used to turn on my GPS and throw it in the back seat. I would practise holding for 45 minutes or so and then return to the airport. I would then download the data from my GPS to my laptop and be amazed at the pretty little "racetrack" that I had made during holding

 

[anonn]

That means that Houston (ARTCC I assume) is not accepting the handoff of the aircraft due to workload or other co-ordination taking place with other controllers.

That is exactly correct. While this is not an frequent occurrence, it is not unusual for this to happen.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

That is exactly correct. While this is not an frequent occurrence, it is not unusual for this to happen.

Ok, I guess it was the wording, I have never heard anyone being told "the next sector is not accepting handoffs, what do you want to do". (Is that in the p/cg?) I have heard "Expect holding due to ________"

The first sounds like "you are completely out of luck, pal - why don't you go bye-bye!"

 

[HPNPilot1200]

My question is, were you IFR of VFR flight following or making practice approaches?

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

My question is, were you IFR of VFR flight following or making practice approaches?

Ah. Well I assumed he was working in the carryvan, because that is what most of his posts describe. (ifr)

 

[Earthroamer]

What the heck does that mean, Eamon??

I went in and out of IAH last night around 1:30 to 2:00am. There were telling me that the center radar was out.

Brent Bradford

 

[Eamon]

What the heck does that mean, Eamon??

There was a large T-storm cell over the airport (IAH). They had lots of planes flying around waiting for approach clearance. I am guessing there was just not enought space to let any more planes into the "B"

I was working in the Caravan.

Usually with bad WX I get held at Lake Charles on the ground till the cells pass, but this time it was timed that the cells & I were arriving Houston at the same time.

 

[Eamon]

My question is, were you IFR of VFR flight following or making practice approaches?

IFR on a cargo route in a Caravan 8:30 PM, arriving IAH (Houston) from CWF (Lake Charles).

 

[Everskyward]

I think ATC's favorite line after they tell you that you can't do what you wanted to do is, "What are your intentions?" B)