Real Cost of Ownership: The Affordable Plane

[AdamZ]

Holy chit! $109 TIE DOWN, where is it tied down, down town NY??

Tiedowns in my and Mike's area run from a low of $50 at a local rundown airport to $132 at the field closest to both Mike and I. The $109 is at an airport in an upscale suburban area outside Philly owned by a county airport authority.

 

[yakdriver]

Guys, I think you're missing the point of this blog post. Does a 150/152 have limitations? Of course it does! Is there a plane that you can buy and fly cheaper on the market right now? I doubt it.

A 150/152 is not a cross country machine, and everyone who is even remotely serious about buying a plane knows that, and they also know the weight limitations of the platform and they know if their ass will fit in the chair.


Why would you say that? Just because it doesn't do 180kts doesn't mean it's not a good cross country airplane. After owning a few 160kt+ airplanes it's kinda fun flying at 90kts looking at the countryside. Don

 

[wabower]

For our typical 49-mile breakfast run I'd agree. After that, the novelty wears off pretty quick.

Guys, I think you're missing the point of this blog post. Does a 150/152 have limitations? Of course it does! Is there a plane that you can buy and fly cheaper on the market right now? I doubt it.

A 150/152 is not a cross country machine, and everyone who is even remotely serious about buying a plane knows that, and they also know the weight limitations of the platform and they know if their ass will fit in the chair.


Why would you say that? Just because it doesn't do 180kts doesn't mean it's not a good cross country airplane. After owning a few 160kt+ airplanes it's kinda fun flying at 90kts looking at the countryside. Don

 

[Alexb2000]

I was fishing in OK and got a flat on one of my mains. I found a local independent A/P who brought me an old tube he had laying around and changed it out for $300 total. It was a Sunday in the middle of nowhere, I called him at home, and I was just happy he was willing to help me out.

So I fly back to Dallas where my shop tells me these Goodyear tubes have defects and this is fairly common. So now I have one 20 year old mystery tube that holds air about 24 hours and two most likely defective tubes waiting for their chance to strand me.

So I have all three changed out to Michelin's. $700.

Point of the story is that I spent $1000 to fix one year old tubes. It was totally unexpected and certainly not in any budget. It could just as well have happened on a 40 year old 150 as my aircraft.

Trying to operate old aircraft on a tight budget or on the cheap is a fools errand IMO. BUT you guys keep telling me all the stories about flying for thousands of hours without any surprise repairs or cost that weren't in a spreadsheet, they're fun to read.

 

[Ted]

Trying to operate old aircraft on a tight budget or on the cheap is a fools errand IMO. BUT you guys keep telling me all the stories about flying for thousands of hours without any surprise repairs or cost that weren't in a spreadsheet, they're fun to read.

Agreed to a point. There are cheaper and more expensive ways to take care of a plane. Somewhat ironically, one of the best ways to save money is to spend it logically and combine maintenance. Spend a little more on parts now, spend less later, etc.

The people who seem to spend the most and have the most problems are usually the ones who are trying to pinch pennies really badly, and do things like cheap out on engine components, etc. The other folks are the one who just throw money at issues, without really trying to diagnose first.

 

[Alexb2000]

Agreed to a point. There are cheaper and more expensive ways to take care of a plane. Somewhat ironically, one of the best ways to save money is to spend it logically and combine maintenance. Spend a little more on parts now, spend less later, etc.

The people who seem to spend the most and have the most problems are usually the ones who are trying to pinch pennies really badly, and do things like cheap out on engine components, etc. The other folks are the one who just throw money at issues, without really trying to diagnose first.

I agree with everything you said, being smart doesn't always mean spending the least amount of money at a single point in time.

My point was simply that building spreadsheets, reserves, etc. on an older aircraft is rarely accurate enough to even warrant the time to maintain it IMO. The reason is when you fly them things like the above just happen and it cost you a lot more money than you had planned. In fact if people really had a forward looking accounting of what aviation really cost, well.... there would be a lot less traffic.

 

[Mike5250]

Holy chit! $109 TIE DOWN, where is it tied down, down town NY??

You're telling me! The airport I "moved" from has $16/mo tie down and $4.84 self serve (yes todays price). $109/mo and $6.40 fuel adds at least 100-150 a month!

 

[Ted]

I agree with everything you said, being smart doesn't always mean spending the least amount of money at a single point in time.

My point was simply that building spreadsheets, reserves, etc. on an older aircraft is rarely accurate enough to even warrant the time to maintain it IMO. The reason is when you fly them things like the above just happen and it cost you a lot more money than you had planned. In fact if people really had a forward looking accounting of what aviation really cost, well.... there would be a lot less traffic.

True, but you can still budget a certain amount. Ultimately you need to be able to write some significant checks or understand the plane will be grounded.

Since I've structured both of the aircraft I've been in charge of in corporations, I've had to track expenses and come up with a reasonable assumption of hourly costs. It does seem to balance itself out over time. That said, the initial assumption number I put in for the Aztec was on the low side, and thus wrong, so I was upping the rate regularly. The 310 by comparison I started out a bit on the high side, and has worked out better - still holding out accurately after 3 years.

 

[hindsight2020]

I agree with everything you said, being smart doesn't always mean spending the least amount of money at a single point in time.

My point was simply that building spreadsheets, reserves, etc. on an older aircraft is rarely accurate enough to even warrant the time to maintain it IMO. The reason is when you fly them things like the above just happen and it cost you a lot more money than you had planned. In fact if people really had a forward looking accounting of what aviation really cost, well.... there would be a lot less traffic.

And that's the rub now isn't it....You see, to me there is still a canyon of difference between Affording the cost and Embracing the cost. To me, the bold above is really a jab at the population of owner/operators that in the bigger-wallet participants' eyes, simply don't belong. They just mask it under a disingenuous safety mentorship supposition. That's why this pursuit is dying. Not because tires happen to cost $700 installed in certified land.


The more I read POA the more it reads like Flying Magazine. That 204 knot thread is an absolute embarrassment. People think it's about certified vs experimental, but that thing has such an socioeconomic warfare undertone to it it's not even funny.

 

[NineThreeKilo]

... A/P who brought me an old tube he had laying around and changed it out for $300 total. ...


So I have all three changed out to Michelin's. $700.

Point of the story is that I spent $1000 to fix one year old tubes. It was totally unexpected and certainly not in any budget. It could just as well have happened on a 40 year old 150 as my aircraft....

Trying to operate old aircraft on a tight budget or on the cheap is a fools errand IMO. BUT you guys keep telling me all the stories about flying for thousands of hours without any surprise repairs or cost that weren't in a spreadsheet, they're fun to read.

Uhh, we just put two new 6.00x6 tires and tubes on our trainer (OMG it's older then 1990 too lol), ran us about $160 bucks all in and a hour worth of our time, remember owner maintenance.

If you're down to spend a grand for a fancy shop to change your tires, yeah having a sane/small budget would be a fools errand.

I'd just say paying over 100 bucks for a TIE DOWN, or some A&P a grand to change tires is a sign of a foolish and/or rich owner.

Find a quaint airport to keep your aircraft at and don't be afraid to roll your damn sleeves up for some owner maintenance. Jeeze

 

[Bob Noel]

"I figure" are arguably among the most-dangerous words insofar as aviation ownership costs are concerned.

I submit a worse phrase is "while I'm at it..." when in the midst of fixing something or upgrading something.

 

[Alexb2000]

And that's the rub now isn't it....You see, to me there is still a canyon of difference between Affording the cost and Embracing the cost. To me, the bold above is really a jab at the population of owner/operators that in the bigger-wallet participants' eyes, simply don't belong. They just mask it under a disingenuous safety mentorship supposition. That's why this pursuit is dying. Not because tires happen to cost $700 installed in certified land.


The more I read POA the more it reads like Flying Magazine. That 204 knot thread is an absolute embarrassment. People think it's about certified vs experimental, but that thing has such an socioeconomic warfare undertone to it it's not even funny.

Couple of points:

It was just the tubes, I would have been thrilled if that price had included new tires.

In this case I could have done the work myself even though the aircraft is certified. But it doesn't matter experimental vs. certified miles from home on a Sunday. Either type of aircraft cost the same, unless you're going to pay Uncle Jed's Truck Tire service center to take it apart and patch it on an experimental.

 

[Dr. O]

Back to the OP.
You can do a ton of flying in a 150/152. Just have a gyro and be proficient with it, in case the weather is faster than the plane.
This is the modern counter part to the C120/140 that many of us grey beards started with
(I started with a T-Craft BC12D - Nordo. Now there is limited capabilities and I still got all over the Great Lakes States with it.)


A club is a solution:
RIght club = good.
Wrong club = misery.

Next step down would be a partner in a basic VFR C172 or Piper 140. (same criteria as a club)

I have been around a long time and in general, pilots who start out in simple, limited capability aircraft seem to have staying power and develop good judgement.

 

[Alexb2000]

Uhh, we just put two new 6.00x6 tires and tubes on our trainer (OMG it's older then 1990 too lol), ran us about $160 bucks all in and a hour worth of our time, remember owner maintenance.

If you're down to spend a grand for a fancy shop to change your tires, yeah having a sane/small budget would be a fools errand.

I'd just say paying over 100 bucks for a TIE DOWN, or some A&P a grand to change tires is a sign of a foolish and/or rich owner.

Find a quaint airport to keep your aircraft at and don't be afraid to roll your damn sleeves up for some owner maintenance. Jeeze

I guess you just get better deals than I do, since you're obviously soooooo... much smarter than I am. I looked back at the invoice just to see what I was charged. The two main tubes were $95 each and the front with a curved valve stem was $120, so with Tax the parts were ~$350 (I checked the prices on Aircraft Spruce and I was charged a little more, but not a lot). I have wheel pants and since we were there we packed the wheel bearings so they wouldn't have to be done at annual. My memory was a little off, the total for that work out the door was $607. I am in a community hangar so no working there. Texas is about 110 degrees on the ramp in summer, so I'm not sure I'd want to spend a day working on it to save $257 either.

As to the original repair: I guess when you call an A&P you've never meet on a Sunday and ask them to stop what they're doing, load all their tools and a compressor up, drive over an hour each way, supply a tube, and work out in the heat for a couple of hours. They just say, Oh for you 93K, no problemo, $50. Now, if it was one of those other dumbass rich pilots it would be $300.

 

[wabower]

Hard to disagree, depending on the element of uncertainty as to cost for each situation.

I submit a worse phrase is "while I'm at it..." when in the midst of fixing something or upgrading something.

 

[Ted]

The more I read POA the more it reads like Flying Magazine. That 204 knot thread is an absolute embarrassment. People think it's about certified vs experimental, but that thing has such an socioeconomic warfare undertone to it it's not even funny.

I didn't realize that good decision making had anything to do with socioeconomic status.

 

[wabower]

How do you afford that fancy airplane and that house in Taos when you throw money around like that? Don't they sell tubes that size at Discount Tire?

I guess you just get better deals than I do, since you're obviously soooooo... much smarter than I am. I looked back at the invoice just to see what I was charged. The two main tubes were $95 each and the front with a curved valve stem was $120, so with Tax the parts were ~$350 (I checked the prices on Aircraft Spruce and I was charged a little more, but not a lot). I have wheel pants and since we were there we packed the wheel bearings so they wouldn't have to be done at annual. My memory was a little off, the total for that work out the door was $607. I am in a community hangar so no working there. Texas is about 110 degrees on the ramp in summer, so I'm not sure I'd want to spend a day working on it to save $257 either.

As to the original repair: I guess when you call an A&P you've never meet on a Sunday and ask them to stop what they're doing, load all their tools and a compressor up, drive over an hour each way, supply a tube, and work out in the heat for a couple of hours. They just say, Oh for you 93K, no problemo, $50. Now, if it was one of those other dumbass rich pilots it would be $300.

 

[DrMack]

I think a good partnership is the optimum. Clubs are a close second.

We own a 2007 Diamond DA40XLS with three other partners. We all paid $60K cash to buy in (no lien on the airplane). Our fixed costs (hanger, insurance, annual inspection, unscheduled maintenance, legal and accounting fees) are $400/month each. Our variable costs (TBO reserve) are $30/hour dry. We are all >200 hrs and all are IR so our insurance is very reasonable.

Each week (Tues-Mon) we rotate the scheduling "priority", that is one week per month each pilot has the privilege of right of refusal to all other partners for scheduling. if a non-priority pilot wishes to use the airplane all he has to do is ask the priority pilot if it's available. In the 16 months we have owned the airplane with each partner flying 75-100/yr. we have never had a scheduling conflict.

We have had a couple of non-scheduled maintenance issues but because the cost is spread over four partners we have not felt the usual punitive GA gouge for parts and labor.

 

[NineThreeKilo]

I guess you just get better deals than I do, since you're obviously soooooo... much smarter than I am. I looked back at the invoice just to see what I was charged. The two main tubes were $95 each and the front with a curved valve stem was $120, so with Tax the parts were ~$350 (I checked the prices on Aircraft Spruce and I was charged a little more, but not a lot). I have wheel pants and since we were there we packed the wheel bearings so they wouldn't have to be done at annual. My memory was a little off, the total for that work out the door was $607. I am in a community hangar so no working there. Texas is about 110 degrees on the ramp in summer, so I'm not sure I'd want to spend a day working on it to save $257 either.

As to the original repair: I guess when you call an A&P you've never meet on a Sunday and ask them to stop what they're doing, load all their tools and a compressor up, drive over an hour each way, supply a tube, and work out in the heat for a couple of hours. They just say, Oh for you 93K, no problemo, $50. Now, if it was one of those other dumbass rich pilots it would be $300.

Not sure what you're flying, if it's a standard issue 6.00x6 PA28 here's a combo, ALL THREE tubes and tires for $366 http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/lgpages/mctire_pkgs.php

We have a local tire supplier that normally can match or beat spruce.

For a tire I wouldn't pay a A&P, haven't had a flat away from my home drome, but ive brought a bag of tools and jack out to a few friends in your situation.

For LONG x-counties (see across the country) I'll bring tools too.

I'm just sayin' rolling your sleeves up and knowing how to fix some basic stuff really helps save $$

 

[flyingcheesehead]

The more I read, the more I think a medium-sized club type situation with a couple of planes is the way to go...

It's a great way to fly, if you can find the right club. For me it's been almost as good as owning, and even better when you consider that I can "own" three different airplanes with three different missions. In nearly 9 years with the club, I've had only two situations where I wanted to fly and there wasn't a plane available, and I've been able to fly a LOT in the club planes - About 700 of my 1100+ hours have been in club planes, and I've flown them to the east, west, and gulf coasts from the midwest.