Reach for the AFM

[Jaybird180]

Many regs require the pilot have onboard certain documentation, manuals, quick reference guides, etc for the equipment or airframe to be (legally) airworthy.

How many of us have ever availed themselves to this resource? I've only flipped a POH or Pilot's Guide while on the ground during planning or in bed learning about xyz.

Please share your experience utilizing the manuals in-flight where you were thankful for having access to it.

Personally, (and I'm going out on a limb here) for the type of flying I do, I'd rather have the useful load available to me.

Discuss.

 

[dmccormack]

The POH for my Chief isn't. All I got is placards.



When I was flying an A-36 regularly I read the POH over many times. I knew the nosewheel recommended tire pressure.

 

[HPNPilot1200]

I study the digital version (if available) when I'm not in the airplane and also teach from it. I made a copy of most of the relevant pages out of the Mooney 231 POH and keep them at home for reference.

In the actual POH I have confirmed weight and balance data but other than that, the information manuals (not S/N specific) are pretty close.

 

[flyingron]

There's no AFM for my plane. I do have a bunch of supplements for things like the aux tanks, IFR GPS, etc... to the non-existant flight manual. The supplement for the GPS does require the pilot guide for it to be in the plane. The only flight manual I've bothered to check is the one for the engine monitor (some of the lesser used features aren't very intuitive).

I'd need to use the flight manual for the autopilot except that I have moved the preflight check procedure to my custom checklist.

 

[jesse]

I've looked at them in flight or on the ground before, usually to verify something, often in aircraft I'm ferrying. If I'm not familiar with type I look at them pretty closely to make sure there aren't any systems surprises.

 

[denverpilot]

Mine's on-board, but it's the size of a small pamphlet. It stays in a plastic baggie with the official W&B.

I keep an electronic version on iPad, Kindle, and a printed copy at home.

The "new" 182s at CAP have books the size of small tomes, which I also have on PDF that don't fit on a CD anymore, and require a data DVD.

The two airplanes fly roughly the same.

 

[Jaybird180]

The "new" 182s at CAP have books the size of small tomes, which I also have on PDF that don't fit on a CD anymore, and require a data DVD.

Re-diculous
(yes, I know how to spell it correctly - it's for dramatic effect)

 

[poadeleted20]

I've used them many times in flight when trying to refigure perforamance data or checking on whether a system is supposed to do what it seems to be doing. I've also many times wished for one when flying a plane that predates the requirement for a comprehensive POH/AFM in the plane at all times.

 

[steingar]

I am very reluctant to reach for any documentation in the aircraft, especially if I'm the only pilot on board. My eyes belong outside the cockpit.

 

[jesse]

I am very reluctant to reach for any documentation in the aircraft, especially if I'm the only pilot on board. My eyes belong outside the cockpit.

No different then looking at a sectional. You just don't spend much time eyes down.

 

[steingar]

No different then looking at a sectional. You just don't spend much time eyes down.

Way different to confirm position on a map and read procedures, at least to me.

 

[Jaybird180]

I've used them many times in flight when trying to refigure perforamance data or checking on whether a system is supposed to do what it seems to be doing. I've also many times wished for one when flying a plane that predates the requirement for a comprehensive POH/AFM in the plane at all times.

Would knowledge of the airplane be preferred?

I could imagine the above scenario for the guy who flies different aircraft. I once asked a test pilot about how he flies different test aircraft and is expected to follow a specific profile. He told me, 'after awhile you learn them and get used to it.'

 

[poadeleted20]

Would knowledge of the airplane be preferred?

Sure, but memorizing all the performance data and every detail of the operation of every system on every different plane I fly? No way, Jose -- ain't that many empty and operating cells left in my aging brain (and never were).

And for steingar, I do a lot of flying when when looking outside doesn't help, and just distracts you from what you're supposed to be doing.

 

[wabower]

No. If the FAA thought that all of the items on every emer or abnormal checklist should be committed to memory, they would be required questions on the oral. They aren't, and the reason the distraction is required is to determine if the pilot is capable of diverting attention to a non-flying task while also maintaining awareness of the FTFA duties. Anybody who can't do so should obtain additional training until they can.

Would knowledge of the airplane be preferred?

'

 

[denverpilot]

No. If the FAA thought that all of the items on every emer or abnormal checklist should be committed to memory, they would be required questions on the oral. They aren't, and the reason the distraction is required is to determine if the pilot is capable of diverting attention to a non-flying task while also maintaining awareness of the FTFA duties. Anybody who can't do so should obtain additional training until they can.

On some aircraft some items are required to be committed to memory. Ask any Part 121 pilot.

 

[j1b3h0]

I can remember flying a Mooney 231 from Salt Lake to the Bay area and when I attempted to extend the gear, it wouldn't. Left the traffic pattern, dug into the AFM and applied the emergency extension procedure, and landed 10 minutes later. I've also scoured the AFM inflight when I was facing a critical fuel situation and needed to find out the best power setting/leaning proceedure for max endurance. Plenty of handy stuff in a post GAMA (General Aviation Manufacturers Association) AFM. I've flown too many airplane types to commit them all to memory.

With regard to the OP's Emergency Memory Item comments...while there are certainly emergencies that require immediate pilot action - engine failure, for example, doesn't it seem odd that most of us use a checklist from pre-start to after landing - on every leg. But when we experience an honest-to-god, no kidding emergency, well, we're suppossed to pull the proceedure out of thin air? Most humans error, in that situation. Enter the AFM.

 

[RotorAndWing]

On some aircraft some items are required to be committed to memory. Ask any Part 121 pilot.

These are called "Phase One Items" on the emergency/abnormal checklist.

Also many limitations are memory items.

While used in Part 121 aircraft they are also found in large turbo prop and turbo jet aircraft as well as helicopters.

Large aircraft also have a QRH (Quick Reference Handbook) available with expanded checklist and abnormal items.

 

[LearDriver]

On some aircraft some items are required to be committed to memory. Ask any Part 121 pilot.

121 doesn't anything to do with it. Every aircraft has some procedures that need to be committed to memory.

 

[denverpilot]

I can remember flying a Mooney 231 from Salt Lake to the Bay area and when I attempted to extend the gear, it wouldn't. Left the traffic pattern, dug into the AFM and applied the emergency extension procedure, and landed 10 minutes later. I've also scoured the AFM inflight when I was facing a critical fuel situation and needed to find out the best power setting/leaning proceedure for max endurance. Plenty of handy stuff in a post GAMA (General Aviation Manufacturers Association) AFM. I've flown too many airplane types to commit them all to memory.

All of that stuff is in the pre-GAMA 10,000 page novels too. Not sure your point here?

The two anecdotes sound like you weren't adequately mentally prepared to fly those aircraft.

Pretty sure emergency gear extension was something my CFIs expected to be known in the three types of retracts I've flown. Not looked up in-flight and read. Known.

Digging for engine performance numbers due to being "critical" on fuel?! I'm not sure that mistake didn't start before the flight left the ground.

With regard to the OP's Emergency Memory Item comments...while there are certainly emergencies that require immediate pilot action - engine failure, for example, doesn't it seem odd that most of us use a checklist from pre-start to after landing - on every leg. But when we experience an honest-to-god, no kidding emergency, well, we're suppossed to pull the proceedure out of thin air? Most humans error, in that situation. Enter the AFM.

My checklist is out for the entire flight. You're saying you don't utilize your checklist for all phases of flight?

Mine is a laminated card, two-sided. It didn't come with the aircraft. It covers far more than the manufacturer's checklist in the manual.

Again, not sure what your point is here?

I guess my point is this: If some real emergency happens and someone took the AFM out of the aircraft without your knowledge... you'd better know the important stuff.

 

[denverpilot]

121 doesn't anything to do with it. Every aircraft has some procedures that need to be committed to memory.

Great point. I was referring to the "by law" part of the statement.

And R&W added good info to the point too.

If you don't memorize those items on a checkride in one of those aircraft, it's a required bust.

 

[flyingmoose]

On some aircraft some items are required to be committed to memory. Ask any Part 121 pilot.

Only to be backed up with the checklist!

- Yes I have pulled the AFM before. Maybe a change of plans in the air and a quick look at some charts for fuel burn/range.

 

[j1b3h0]

All of that stuff is in the pre-GAMA 10,000 page novels too. Not sure your point here?

The two anecdotes sound like you weren't adequately mentally prepared to fly those aircraft.

Pretty sure emergency gear extension was something my CFIs expected to be known in the three types of retracts I've flown. Not looked up in-flight and read. Known.

Digging for engine performance numbers due to being "critical" on fuel?! I'm not sure that mistake didn't start before the flight left the ground.



My checklist is out for the entire flight. You're saying you don't utilize your checklist for all phases of flight?

Mine is a laminated card, two-sided. It didn't come with the aircraft. It covers far more than the manufacturer's checklist in the manual.

Again, not sure what your point is here?

I guess my point is this: If some real emergency happens and someone took the AFM out of the aircraft without your knowledge... you'd better know the important stuff.

Sure, it's easy to memorize the emergency gear extension proceedure for ONE airplane, but I regularly flew several types...I was familiar with the proceedures, but refer to the book to go step by step. Over the years, I've had single-pilot IFR 135 letters on 13 airplanes. Emergency gear extension is not what I would consider a time critical emergency - why not get the book out?

My point about (memorized emergency) checklists is that, yes, while I use the normal checklist on every flight, reciting a checklist by memory during a once or twice in a lifetime situation is fraught with perils. Better slow down, carefully diagnose a situation, and methodically follow a checklist, engine failure/fires notwithstanding.

Clearly you haven't much real world IFR experience if you've never entered holding in a dynamic weather situation that required careful fuel management, and the potential to greatly inconvienience droves of paying passengers...happens every winter at ORD.

 

[flyingron]

The POH for my Chief isn't. All I got is placards.



When I was flying an A-36 regularly I read the POH over many times. I knew the nosewheel recommended tire pressure.

I got tired of looking up my tire pressure, I put it on the checklist (along with the date of the Annual, ELT Batteries, our two medicals, and the IFR certs

 

[poadeleted20]

On some aircraft some items are required to be committed to memory. Ask any Part 121 pilot.

Military, too. We had 13 memorized steps in the F-111 on which we were tested weekly with a minimum passing score of 100% (a test which I believe I could still pass today 24 years after my last F-111 flight). However, we also had an inch-thick 5x8 book strapped to our leg with all the stuff we might need in flight but not so fast it had to be memorized.

OTOH, Cirrus put 83 items in what they say are the essential emergency checklist items necessary to be memorized for the SR22. I'm still having trouble understanding how a single engine fixed gear light airplane is more than six times as complicated as a twin-engine swing-wing tactical fighter capable of supersonic hands-off flight at 200 feet in mountainous terrain at night.

 

[TMetzinger]

If I'm going to fly an airplane that's new to me, I'll pull the AFM out sometime before the flight, even if it's a type I've flown before. Why? So I can look at the supplements to see what sort of gizmos may be installed on THIS airplane that weren't on the one's I'd already flown, and what they might do to performance or limitations.

If I've never flown the type before, I get a copy or a POH long before I take the first lesson in it, and I dig out the emergency procedures, the airspeeds for normal ops, and basically read the whole thing through.

If there's another required document (G1000 pilot guide for example), I'll read it if I haven't read it before.

In flight, the manual would come out any time I had a question about the airplane. In the last Flying Wild Alaska where the 1900 had the bad gear microswitch so that the gear indicated unsafe/in-transit, you saw the crew handle that situation pretty well - someone flew the airplane, there were no memory items, no QRH items, and they went and dug out the manual for any abnormal checklists related to this event.

Oh, just thought of a real-life example. While flying along, I saw the oil pressure start to drop a bit without a corresponding rise in temperature. I pulled out the manual, found the emergency checklist, then went to the systems description and was informed that if the engine temperature wasn't rising and the oil pressure was not in the red I didn't have a "land right now" situation. So I watched both like a hawk (this was at night) and continued the flight. When I landed, I found some oil in the belly and that the airplane had lost 2 of 12 quarts during the flight. Turns out a pipe in the low pressure part of the turbocharger oil system had cracked and was leaking.

And I agree that there are relatively few things that need memory responses. Even in bigger more complex airplanes in revenue service, the lists I've seen have one or two immediate memory items, then it's "get out the QRH". They all relate to things that will kill you quickly, like fires, powerplant failures, or depressurizations.

Jet jockies, care to comment on how many items are actual memory items in your checklists?

 

[j1b3h0]

16 on the 737-800.

 

[poadeleted21]

I went to ACE and got a Craftsman tool bag for all the documents that are s'posed to be on board my aircraft. I find that in IMC in a plane with no A/P is a great time to crack open the 200+ page book and figure out how to load an approach. Why else would I be required to lug the thing around?

Off the top of my head, I'm requried to have my POH,AFM,GPS Manual, GPS Quick Reference, and some AFM supplements.

 

[denverpilot]

Sure, it's easy to memorize the emergency gear extension proceedure for ONE airplane, but I regularly flew several types...I was familiar with the proceedures, but refer to the book to go step by step. Over the years, I've had single-pilot IFR 135 letters on 13 airplanes. Emergency gear extension is not what I would consider a time critical emergency - why not get the book out?

My point about (memorized emergency) checklists is that, yes, while I use the normal checklist on every flight, reciting a checklist by memory during a once or twice in a lifetime situation is fraught with perils. Better slow down, carefully diagnose a situation, and methodically follow a checklist, engine failure/fires notwithstanding.

Clearly you haven't much real world IFR experience if you've never entered holding in a dynamic weather situation that required careful fuel management, and the potential to greatly inconvienience droves of paying passengers...happens every winter at ORD.

Ahh. I see. I understand your point about reading vs memorization when you have the time.

You argued originally against any memorization, which was too far the other way.

I also see from all the added information about 135 and what-not that your reply indicates this is a contest of who has the biggest ...

AFM.

Thanks for making sure I had my tape measure out. Haha.

As far as ORD... I truly hope to never see that city ever again. Only the prospect of seeing a VERY few pilot friends who have the distinct handicap in life of having to live in that awful place would even tempt me to go near it.

Back to AFMs...

My point was... identical types...

1975 C-182, 2001 C-182 (we'll leave the G1000 out of this for the moment)...

The 1975 has a few succinct very useful pages in a small pamphlet format POH. Everything you need to safely fly the aircraft is in it.

The other has not just one, but TWO 3" binders full of crap.

And I think that's where the OP was headed, really...

"Why do we carry around 10 lbs of paper in the aircraft?"

The truth is, we didn't used to. The answer is: lawyers.

 

[poadeleted20]

Jet jockies, care to comment on how many items are actual memory items in your checklists?

IIRC, in addition to the 13 in the F-111, I think there were 16 in the F-4. I might be able to pass that test, too, 32 years after my last flight in Ol' Double-Ugly. If someone can list the boldface emergencies without the steps (i.e., a blank boldface test), I'd be happy to have a go at it.

 

[Rex Kramer]

If I'm going to fly an airplane that's new to me, I'll pull the AFM out sometime before the flight, even if it's a type I've flown before. Why? So I can look at the supplements to see what sort of gizmos may be installed on THIS airplane that weren't on the one's I'd already flown, and what they might do to performance or limitations.

If I've never flown the type before, I get a copy or a POH long before I take the first lesson in it, and I dig out the emergency procedures, the airspeeds for normal ops, and basically read the whole thing through.

If there's another required document (G1000 pilot guide for example), I'll read it if I haven't read it before.

In flight, the manual would come out any time I had a question about the airplane. In the last Flying Wild Alaska where the 1900 had the bad gear microswitch so that the gear indicated unsafe/in-transit, you saw the crew handle that situation pretty well - someone flew the airplane, there were no memory items, no QRH items, and they went and dug out the manual for any abnormal checklists related to this event.

Oh, just thought of a real-life example. While flying along, I saw the oil pressure start to drop a bit without a corresponding rise in temperature. I pulled out the manual, found the emergency checklist, then went to the systems description and was informed that if the engine temperature wasn't rising and the oil pressure was not in the red I didn't have a "land right now" situation. So I watched both like a hawk (this was at night) and continued the flight. When I landed, I found some oil in the belly and that the airplane had lost 2 of 12 quarts during the flight. Turns out a pipe in the low pressure part of the turbocharger oil system had cracked and was leaking.

And I agree that there are relatively few things that need memory responses. Even in bigger more complex airplanes in revenue service, the lists I've seen have one or two immediate memory items, then it's "get out the QRH". They all relate to things that will kill you quickly, like fires, powerplant failures, or depressurizations.

Jet jockies, care to comment on how many items are actual memory items in your checklists?

On the 777 (at least the version I fly) there are only a couple, associated with loss of cabin pressure/cabin altitude warning. There are no memory items for engine failures or fires, per se. However, the actual flight profile is committed to memory (different cleanup heights/climb profiles for single engine vs both motors going, speeds, engine out departures, etc). The airplane itself will bring up a checklist for almost any fault. It's run when the immediate situation is stabilized: gear in the wells and the airplane not pointing towards anything solid. It's a gentleman's airplane, for sure.

I'm simplifying a bit, but it appears the new, more advanced the airplane, the simpler the memory items (Ron's mention of the Cirrus an exception.. wow.. ). We also spend weeks and weeks going over normal and emergency procedures during initial training and more again during recurrent. Most of us peruse through the system manuals and checklists to keep a working on knowledge on things that don't break very often. Even non-memory items are fairly well memorized.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Many regs require the pilot have onboard certain documentation, manuals, quick reference guides, etc for the equipment or airframe to be (legally) airworthy.

How many of us have ever availed themselves to this resource? I've only flipped a POH or Pilot's Guide while on the ground during planning or in bed learning about xyz.

Please share your experience utilizing the manuals in-flight where you were thankful for having access to it.

Personally, (and I'm going out on a limb here) for the type of flying I do, I'd rather have the useful load available to me.

Discuss.

Normally I study the systems and most other details from the POH on the ground, however, I have occasionally consulted it in flight for updated performance numbers. For example, if I am approaching the destination and winds are favoring a much shorter runway, I'll run some quick numbers to see how it looks or if I need to divert to another field.

I made a stop at Telluride once because I happened to be flying by....I was deviating around some virga in the Rockies and noticed that I was not far away from TEX. It was late summer and I was in a Duchess (non-turbo). Since I was so close, I figured it would be fun to make a brief stop just to add to the bucket list, but I wanted to make darn sure I could depart again before I committed to landing so I whipped out the POH and did a quick takeoff calculation for 11500' DA to see if I could do it. Plenty of room to spare

 

[poadeleted20]

I'm simplifying a bit, but it appears the new, more advanced the airplane, the simpler the memory items (Ron's mention of the Cirrus an exception.. wow.. ). We also spend weeks and weeks going over normal and emergency procedures during initial training and more again during recurrent. Most of us peruse through the system manuals and checklists to keep a working on knowledge on things that don't break very often. Even non-memory items are fairly well memorized.

Of course, you aren't likely to be flying a 777 today, an A330 tomorrow, and an E190 the next day. Folks doing what I do often jump from Cessna to Piper to Beech even in a single day. That makes it harder for us to keep up with things, and more reliant on the book in the cockpit if problems develop in flight or if updated performance data is required.

 

[Jaybird180]

Cirrus has a checklist on the MFD, not sure about emergency.

My 11th grade physics teacher taught me a very valuable lesson that I will pass on here.
Adrienne: Mr Momen, how do you expect us to memorize all these formulas
Momen: I do not expect you to memorize them. I expect you to understand the relationship these things have to each other and you will know how...

He was right. I apply that lesson as a way of life.

 

[denverpilot]

On the 777 (at least the version I fly) there are only a couple, associated with loss of cabin pressure/cabin altitude warning.

Another 777 driver told me three on his model.

I believe the one you haven't listed had to do with the RAT, I believe?

You guys are spoiled. Boeing made y'all a nice bird.

Sure beats memorizing when you're in Normal versus Alternate Law made up by some idiot software engineer somewhere at Airbus, doesn't it?

The Cirrus thing made me think... "Gee, no wonder they never get around to pulling the 'chute!"

 

[wabower]

No memory items on G-V. Which is a good thing for those with no memory.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

How many of us have ever availed themselves to this resource?

Please share your experience utilizing the manuals in-flight where you were thankful for having access to it.

two I recall:
a) abnormal gear indication
b) master caution light

 

[Rex Kramer]

Of course, you aren't likely to be flying a 777 today, an A330 tomorrow, and an E190 the next day. Folks doing what I do often jump from Cessna to Piper to Beech even in a single day. That makes it harder for us to keep up with things, and more reliant on the book in the cockpit if problems develop in flight or if updated performance data is required.

No, but we do have a few management pilots that are qualed on a few airplanes (737 and 777 at the same time).

The 737 guys have about 6 different 737s to work with, each with different limitations and performance characteristics along with 2 different major cockpit setups along with several smaller differences. The 757/767 pilots have 4 different aircraft to fly with completely different speeds and handling characteristics plus the 767-400 which, cockpit wise, has more in common with the 777 than any 757/767.

I'm on the same side as you about this, so to speak. It's difficult to keep things straight and being able to read the manual in flight is a good idea. Not on short final, but during a time of low workload, it makes sense. And of course, perusing through it before the flight is an excellent idea.

Another 777 driver told me three on his model.

I believe the one you haven't listed had to do with the RAT, I believe?

You guys are spoiled. Boeing made y'all a nice bird.

Sure beats memorizing when you're in Normal versus Alternate Law made up by some idiot software engineer somewhere at Airbus, doesn't it?

The Cirrus thing made me think... "Gee, no wonder they never get around to pulling the 'chute!"

Yeah the dual engine fail/stall is one, too. Though the RAT should be out long before you hit the button.


About the 'bus, I actually like the Airbus. Flew the 320 series for a little while and loved it. There is a lot of hoopla over the controls laws and which is better, Boeing or Airbus. In reality the limitations Airbus puts on the flight control laws is really not an issue. I do wish the control sticks were back driven and linked, however. Other than that, I would prefer the Airbus cockpit over the Boeings 8 days a week. It's so much more comfortable and overall the ergonomics are hard to beat.

Sorry for the drift...!

 

[LearDriver]

Jet jockies, care to comment on how many items are actual memory items in your checklists?

G-IV - No memory items
G-IV - Non Memory Memory Items - A bunch

 

[gprellwitz]

About the 'bus, I actually like the Airbus. Flew the 320 series for a little while and loved it. There is a lot of hoopla over the controls laws and which is better, Boeing or Airbus. In reality the limitations Airbus puts on the flight control laws is really not an issue. I do wish the control sticks were back driven and linked, however.

Well, I think there are more than a few Airbus pilots and passengers on AF 447 who would agree with you on that! :^(

 

[poadeleted20]

Cirrus has a checklist on the MFD, not sure about emergency.

They're all on the MFD, but the POH still says the first few steps on many emergencies should be memorized (it takes a few potentially valuable seconds, your right hand, and a good bit of attention to bring the right one up on the MFD), and when you add it up, it's over 80 steps. In some cases, they have you do the same things in different order (with no apparent reason for the difference) -- not cool, psychologically speaking.