Raptor Aircraft

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by Unit74, Nov 6, 2015.

  1. mondtster

    mondtster En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,323
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    mondtster
    Well, it is a diesel...

    How quickly the oil gets dark depends on many variables. I was a bit surprised at how quickly my friend’s diesel diamond turns black though. With minimal emissions components on it and more of a performance oriented calibration I would have expected it to be better than it is. It is black within 5 hours of run time.
     
    Velocity173 likes this.
  2. Omalley1537

    Omalley1537 Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2015
    Messages:
    1,028
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Sean
    It did.

    The only bone I’ll throw PM here is that my Cummins Ram would darken the oil within a couple minutes of an oil change. No idea if the Audi is similar.

    edit:I see it was addressed above. On the Cummins, (5.9 common rail) it was emission equipment that did it. I haven’t looked but I’m guessing PM removed some or all of that for the application.
     
    Velocity173 likes this.
  3. kyleb

    kyleb Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2008
    Messages:
    5,877
    Location:
    Marietta, GA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Drake the Outlaw
    He needs to use an aviation product like MMO for that. Acetone is for half assers.

    Oh, wait...
     
    TCABM, Omalley1537 and jsstevens like this.
  4. iamtheari

    iamtheari Administrator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2016
    Messages:
    2,465
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ari
    It does seem that glide characteristics would have been part of the calculated aerodynamics that he has based his performance expectations on, so even without a test he should have had some guesstimate of the glide speed and ratio.
     
    FancyG and Tantalum like this.
  5. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2012
    Messages:
    12,546
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Velocity173
    Blames the poor landing on control sensitivity. :rolleyes: No, you were in panic mode and rolled in 15 degrees of bank at the last second because of that. If the controls are that sensitive and the aileron spades have relaxed the forces that much, maybe it’s time to rethink the flight control setup???
     
    TCABM, Omalley1537 and Tantalum like this.
  6. OkieAviator

    OkieAviator Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2014
    Messages:
    1,806
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    OkieAviator
    He's fortunate he stayed close to the air field. This could have had a very different outcome.
     
  7. mondtster

    mondtster En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,323
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    mondtster
    Journal bearing turbos are often a good early warning device for how bad the engine is messed up. They’re also a great source of metal that will find its way into every oil gallery and bearing when they fail. But, sometimes you win and sometimes you lose. Modern engines and turbos seem far more prone to sending metal everywhere when they fail than the old stuff was.

    Generally speaking, seals in a turbo are not seals like a crank seal would be. They’re metal sealing rings, more like what you’d find in an automatic transmission.
     
  8. wayne

    wayne Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2007
    Messages:
    1,878
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    wayne
    At this point? Something slightly better than the Space Shuttle. o_O
     
  9. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    7,142
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    San_Diego_Pilot
    My napkin math may be off, but if he's losing 1,500 fpm at 100 knots doesn't that work out to about 6.5:1? I think the shuttle on approach had 4.5:1
     
  10. GaryM

    GaryM Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2020
    Messages:
    629
    Location:
    New Jersey (KMMU)
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Gary M
    If so, his performance expectations don't instill a lot of confidence on the calculated aerodynamics.
     
    Datadriver likes this.
  11. Skip Miller

    Skip Miller Final Approach

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2005
    Messages:
    5,388
    Location:
    New York City
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Skip Miller
    Ditto with a pair of Detroit Diesel 6V53's in marine service. These engines were run at full power for hours on end, and had over 4000 hours on them...

    -Skip
     
  12. Bacho

    Bacho Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2019
    Messages:
    218
    Location:
    Greenville, SC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Bacho
    i’m not buying his explanation as to why the engine shut down. If that happened he should’ve seen his EGT going through the roof. It’s also my experience that the engine should continue to run just fine to a certain point. With a siezed turbo it certainly will not be creating the power though.

    Modern diesels that I’ve been messing with need high pressure oil to fire the injectors. When you lose that oil supply the injectors quit firing.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2021
  13. SoonerAviator

    SoonerAviator Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2014
    Messages:
    6,258
    Location:
    Broken Arrow, OK
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    SoonerAviator
    Yup. Low oil level will starve the Low-pressure oil pump, which then keeps the high-pressure oil pump from feeding the fuel injectors. Low/no oil means dead engine. Consequently, the HPOP pressures tend to have shearing effects on motor oil which break it down faster than a typical gasoline engine. One reason why oil changes on modern diesels are much more important than on the gasoline engines.
     
    Tantalum likes this.
  14. Spring Ford

    Spring Ford Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2018
    Messages:
    487
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    SpringFord
    I think that may be a diesel thing. Not certain but a 50hp boat diesel that I am familiar with always has completely black oil, even very shortly after a change.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2021
  15. Grum.Man

    Grum.Man En-Route

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2014
    Messages:
    3,329
    Location:
    Statesville NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Grum.Man
    This dude needs an intervention. Gotta know when to throw in the towel man. Surely by now he has to realize at this point his is only further developing his own toy and that nobody in their right mind would buy this contraption.
     
    Omalley1537, Velocity173 and Salty like this.
  16. mondtster

    mondtster En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,323
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    mondtster
    If you’re messing with something that uses high pressure oil to drive the injectors, it isn’t modern. ;)

    The Audi would be using what almost all the manufacturers are doing now which is high pressure common rail injection.

    I agree, a diesel will run a long time with extremely high exhaust temps. Along with the other durability tests I am part of at work, sustained high EGT testing is one of them. The truck and tractor pulling guys will bury a 2000 degree pyrometer in a hurry and the components take it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2021
    Jim K likes this.
  17. Jim K

    Jim K Cleared for Takeoff PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2019
    Messages:
    1,165
    Location:
    CMI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jim
    Historically diesels run rich to produce more power while staying cool, which results in black soot, which quickly darkens the oil. That rich mixture is what causes the thick black smoke you see tractor pullers and bro-dozers belching out.

    Modern emission controls have changed that. My 2013 tractor is tuned to run leaner & hotter, which eliminates the soot, but produces more NOx. This is treated in the exhaust with DEF and converted to N2 and H2O. It has a 600 hour oil change interval (compared to 150-200 for older equipment), and the oil still looks like new up to around 4-500. Pretty much all the newer stuff in the last decade has fully electronic fuel injection, the hydraulic-electric systems were a late 90's early 2000's thing. And they sucked.

    I haven't been watching the videos, so i don't know how old his engine is, but i assume it's running an aftermarket ecu and is not tuned like it left the factory. Does(did) it make any smoke when he goes full power?
     
  18. jsstevens

    jsstevens Final Approach PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    May 18, 2007
    Messages:
    5,940
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    jsstevens
    He was dragging a windmilling prop in flat pitch for a lot of that. Can't help.
     
    231TC likes this.
  19. Racerx

    Racerx Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    May 15, 2020
    Messages:
    576
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ernie
    To me it seemed like he dumped the gear way sooner than he should have. When he finally crossed the threshold he was doing what, 85 knots? Lagging authority at slow speed? He could have held the gear up a good 30 seconds before he did and would have given him more energy. Its not like he needed all of the runway.
     
    flightwriter and Velocity173 like this.
  20. Kenny Phillips

    Kenny Phillips En-Route

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2018
    Messages:
    4,026
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Kenny Phillips
    I imagine that they are shuttle-esque.
     
  21. Racerx

    Racerx Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    May 15, 2020
    Messages:
    576
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ernie
    Every once in a while you'd see a little soot in the exhaust. You're obviously more in tune with Diesel implements than I. But I thought our skid steer was a 2014 (maybe it's a 2012) cant remember that far back and was interim tier 4. No def. That's one reason we got it when we did. Bobcat was, and still does have problems with biodiesel gelling on the tier4 final engines. Oil is black pretty quickly. Just thought it was the nature of the beast. Interesting emissions has cleaned up the oil as well.
     
  22. mondtster

    mondtster En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,323
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    mondtster
    There are a few reasons smoke is created but visible smoke will start while the mixture is still quite lean and as you note, additional power is produced way beyond that threshold. When it comes to emissions compliance, the implementation of DEF was a good thing because it helps scrub a lot of emissions that were previously a challenge to control. The calibrations can now go back to offering more performance and fuel efficiency than was possible without it. Unfortunately it comes at the expense of the operator as it is another consumable fluid that needs to be bought and the emissions equipment doesn't last forever.

    From what I've seen, the biggest contributor to soot loading the oil is the in cylinder dosing that is commonly used to heat the aftertreatment. EGR doesn't seem to help either. Shut both of those off and the oil tends to clear up quickly and stay that way.

    I really don't care enough about this project to watch all the videos either but it seems that he is running an ECU that has tuning support. One of the really nice things about using a European engine is that there seems to be a lot more interest and support for real tuning work than there is for the US built stuff.
     
  23. mondtster

    mondtster En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,323
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    mondtster
    The break point for DEF or not depends on horsepower. Anything under 75hp still does not require it.
     
  24. SoonerAviator

    SoonerAviator Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2014
    Messages:
    6,258
    Location:
    Broken Arrow, OK
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    SoonerAviator
    Interesting about the EGR. My '03 6.0L Powerstroke is deleted and the oil doesn't seem to get particularly black even after 2-3K miles. I also intentionally wanted a pre-DEF/DPF truck to avoid the headaches. A clogged DPF is an expensive ordeal on modern diesels. Sure the exhaust comes out cleaner, but man I'd hate to be dropping $$$ on what is essentially an air filter for the exhaust.
     
  25. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    7,142
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    San_Diego_Pilot
    In the marine world we used to set the pitch on the props such that it would just *not* make black smoke at WOT.. black smoke = too course.. of course this was on sailboats with auto feathering props and 30 - 75 hp

    Oil was always black
     
  26. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    7,142
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    San_Diego_Pilot
    I know the fail safe on SE planes is for "blue knob full forward" since that's the best power setting. In twins it's opposite. Granted, in the POHs I've seen they're all written as "windmilling prop" for the glide ratio.. presumably these are mathematically derived figures

    Back in the genesis of this plane the design work seemed more competent, so presumably there's record of a best glide ratio/speed somewhere on hand

    I will give it to PM, I'm not sure when he practiced his last deadstick landing but that wasn't too bad. He struck the wing but kept it on the runway, walked away, and will undoubtedly use the plane again
     
    Katamarino and jsstevens like this.
  27. Sierra_Hotel

    Sierra_Hotel Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2019
    Messages:
    503
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Sierra_Hotel
    That's why I deleted mine when it finally went at 120k miles. Dropping $1500 on a used one of questionable milesage on ebay is insane, let alone the highway robbery of $3k+ for a new factory one. If someone would produce an aftermarket one for the 6.7PSD's I'd be all over it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2021
    FancyG likes this.
  28. mondtster

    mondtster En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2011
    Messages:
    3,323
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    mondtster
    I didn’t see a ton of difference in the oil running EGR vs. no EGR on my old 6.0. It always kept the oil pretty clean. There is a huge difference in the newer Ford engines when they are run with vs. without aftertreatment and EGR.

    There are a lot of variables to how/why the oil gets dark and how long it takes. In many cases it is not all calibration related.
     
    SoonerAviator likes this.
  29. 231TC

    231TC Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2020
    Messages:
    80
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    231TC
    Yes, a small volume leak is harder to find. I figured it would be obvious because it was such a large volume that it must be a big hole somewhere

    We were both right, though...oil sprayed everywhere, so the oil coming from forward was misleading as suspected it might be.
     
  30. Sierra_Hotel

    Sierra_Hotel Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2019
    Messages:
    503
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Sierra_Hotel
    Didn't watch the video, what ended up having the leak? I gathered a bad seal, but on what?
     
  31. Grum.Man

    Grum.Man En-Route

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2014
    Messages:
    3,329
    Location:
    Statesville NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Grum.Man
    Prop reduction unit. Had a seal with a steel support ring pressed into an aluminum housing with no snap ring
     
    Sierra_Hotel likes this.
  32. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    7,142
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    San_Diego_Pilot
    He admitted to leaving the support ring out on purpose thinking, and I quote, "that's not going anywhere"
     
  33. Sierra_Hotel

    Sierra_Hotel Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2019
    Messages:
    503
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Sierra_Hotel
  34. Racerx

    Racerx Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    May 15, 2020
    Messages:
    576
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ernie
    Youtube comments say otherwise
     
  35. Racerx

    Racerx Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    May 15, 2020
    Messages:
    576
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ernie
    You know, I'll give it to him. He owned up to a mistake and an oversight. It's a start.
     
    jaxcessnadriver, 231TC and Tantalum like this.
  36. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    7,142
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    San_Diego_Pilot
    That's right, he started that section of the video with "normalization of deviance"
     
  37. Salty

    Salty Final Approach

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2016
    Messages:
    7,693
    Location:
    FL
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Salty
    YouTube fans != customer
     
    Sierra_Hotel likes this.
  38. FastEddieB

    FastEddieB Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2013
    Messages:
    10,069
    Location:
    Lenoir City, TN/Mineral Bluff, GA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Fast Eddie B
    Do I get at least partial credit?

    To be honest, I was visualizing a larger-diameter unsupported o-ring that had been flattening out, maybe on the other end of the redrive? I think it wasn’t even originally of the high-temp variety. Then again, I’m a little fuzzy on the design and workings of the redrive anyway.
     
  39. pilotrick

    pilotrick Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2016
    Messages:
    80
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    pilotrick
    My prediction is the raptor will not fly for at least 6 months. He will put in the new seal, start up the engine and discover his bearings are shot. Then the real issue begins. Where the hell is he going to get another engine? The engine is out of production. My bet is the engine will be replaced with an aircraft engine so he can continue "testing".
     
  40. German guy

    German guy Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2009
    Messages:
    1,174
    Location:
    Novi, MI
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Oliver
    I doubt it as this would create an entire set of new issues, e. g. with CG and cooling. I would also be surprised if he had the funds to do that.

    My bet is that he will either pour fresh oil in and fly it as it is or, at the very best, get another Audi Diesel engine from the junk yard.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2021
    Rgbeard and TCABM like this.