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No emergency until the cowl fly's off. Then maybe still not an emergency, but scary.

Me? Slow down.

Push the little button that says 'nearest' and go there if suitable. Land. Inspect. Make decision.
 
RotorDude said:
SHOUTING won't make it so. And see also the Oxford version that I have added, for both Brit and US.
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The phrase has a phonetic definition globally, only one phonetic pronunciation is attached to this phrase. Saying Pan Pan is like triggering a 121.5 ELT. There is no official operator in the world, not in the US, not anywhere that pronounces it any other way but the French pronunciation. Just listen for the USCG to come up on 16 and you will learn the proper pronunciation, the ONLY one.
 
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Henning said:
The phrase has a phonetic definition globally, only one phonetic pronunciation is attached to this phrase. Saying Pan Pan is like triggering a 121.5 ELT.
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In that case, make sure you pronounce "M'aidez" correctly (with emphasis on first syllable), or it might not work either.
 
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RotorDude said:
In that case, make sure you pronounce "M'aidez" correctly (with emphasis on first syllable), or it might not work either.
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Mayday has been standardized phonetically as May-day. There are three words in transportation that Americans have to learn in a foreign language, Mayday, Pan-Pan, and securité, that's all. Everyone else has to learn a whole other language, you would think we could make a minimum effort to do things correctly.
 
Henning said:
Mayday has been standardized phonetically as May-day. There are three words in transportation that Americans have to learn in a foreign language, Mayday, Pan-Pan, and securité, that's all. Everyone else has to learn a whole other language, you would think we could make a minimum effort to do things correctly.
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I don't think you need to learn a foreign language to fly in America. Some foreign words have been "bastardized", and the French are no slouches in doing that to our language. And both Pan Pan and Mayday are now English phrases with their own English meaning and pronunciation.
 
I'm am curious....never heard of the pronunciation "Pahn Pahn", and am curious as to the origin (obviously French, like Henning stated earlier). Because I suck at phonetic spellings, Henning, can you give me an "english" rhyming word? (kinda like the frying pan example Ron used)

Seriously, not trying to stir the hornets nest....just trying to learn a little something here.....
 
RotorDude said:
I don't think you need to learn a foreign language to fly in America. Some foreign words have been "bastardized", and the French are no slouches in doing that to our language. And both Pan Pan and Mayday are now English phrases with their own English meaning and pronunciation.
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If you want to give them another meaning, that is fine, you may pronounce it however. If you are on the radio anywhere in the world and call Pan Pan as a request for help, you are saying it incorrectly and making an ass out of yourself and make everyone listening think "another moron who knows nothing got their ass in a bind." including the people you are calling for help. That's what you do with that call, you introduce yourself as incompetent.
 
Terry L in KY said:
I'm am curious....never heard of the pronunciation "Pahn Pahn", and am curious as to the origin (obviously French, like Henning stated earlier). Because I suck at phonetic spellings, Henning, can you give me an "english" rhyming word? (kinda like the frying pan example Ron used)

Seriously, not trying to stir the hornets nest....just trying to learn a little something here.....
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Here is the French version of the word "panne".
 
Henning said:
If you want to give them another meaning, that is fine, you may pronounce it however. If you are on the radio anywhere in the world and call Pan Pan as a request for help, you are saying it incorrectly and making an ass out of yourself and make everyone listening think "another moron who knows nothing got their ass in a bind." including the people you are calling for help. That's what you do with that call, you introduce yourself as incompetent.
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As C'Ron said above, you'd be the only person pronouncing it that way. Everyone else would follow the standard way, per Wikitionary and Oxford American English Dictionary, etc. To be fair, while googling I have found a few sources that claim it's "Pon Pon", but since even that is a bastardization of French "Panne", and since nobody I know uses that (well Henning excepted), I'll use the common version myself.
 
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Henning said:
Then why does the USCG pronounce it that way? :dunno: If you want to learn to pronounce it correctly in America, listen to the United States Coast Guard say it on the radio.
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OK, I'll switch to that pronunciation after ditching. :)
 
Thanks for the french link(s)....

I figure when "it" hits the non-spinning fan, they'll have a hard time making out the panne/pan/pahn's from the serious "potty-mouthed" words.....:yes:

(enough to make the French, USCG, and the US Navy blush)
 
Nistlerooy said:
Wot

If I make a mayday call using Pan Pan (yes I know they're different, not my point, keep reading) I sure hope people think something like "oh shnykies, this guy needs help" rather than "what an ass. Another moron"
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If you make "a mayday call" call using "Pan Pan", you are using the wrong word no matter how you pronounce it. "Mayday" is the word you should be using to communicate "distress", not "Pan Pan". However, if you are trying to communicate urgency, I have no doubt that that any controller anywhere will understand the use of "Pan Pan" whether you pronounce it like a Frenchman or like an American.

If someone's calling out for help, I don't care how they pronounce it or even what they say. I will still help them whether they say mayday, pan pan, pon pon, I'm going down, or help someone please help.
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With the possible exception of the French (who in my operational experience can be real jerks), I have no doubt that any controller in the world will do other than the controller who posted this.
 
Nistlerooy said:
Wot

If I make a mayday call using Pan Pan (yes I know they're different, not my point, keep reading) I sure hope people think something like "oh shnykies, this guy needs help" rather than "what an ass. Another moron"

If someone's calling out for help, I don't care how they pronounce it or even what they say. I will still help them whether they say mayday, pan pan, pon pon, I'm going down, or help someone please help.


Oh you need help? Sorry best of luck you didn't use the magic word. Say it, say it!

Maybe that's just me.
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Yep, we still know you need help, we still come get your dumb ass, and you will treated like and billed like a dumbass if you want us to save your property too.

I just find it so funny that people think saying things incorrectly is ok because they are Americans."We're different, we're better, we'll do whatever we want, screw all those conventions developed for international safety we signed to, I didn't sign it."
 
This thread has turned into it's own version of 'Airplane'.

Don't call me Shirley.
 
We have a long way to go to reach the 221 posts on the same subject which I found on the cruising (boating) forum. :D
 
Nistlerooy said:
If the pronunciation of a word is what gets your worked up in life, I wish I could be in your shoes.

Anyway, been on this bitchfest of a forum about a week and I'm surprised anyone gets any value out of it at all. Congrats on 10+ posts a day.

Best luck to you all.
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Hey Nistlerooy, don't get turned off by some of these guys. It's always valuable to have ATC input on a variety of topics. Most of us don't ***** but are here to learn and exchange ideas.

When you're working and hear some guy decreeing "Pahn-Pahn" like a British sailor from 1873, you'll know exactly who it is.
 
Nistlerooy said:
If the pronunciation of a word is what gets your worked up in life, I wish I could be in your shoes.

Anyway, been on this bitchfest of a forum about a week and I'm surprised anyone gets any value out of it at all. Congrats on 10+ posts a day.

Best luck to you all.
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It's about attitude more than anything.
 
Nobody cares how you pronounce Pan Pan.

Back to the question. If you have an alternator light on, and you want the lights turned on at your destination airport in one hour at the time of you estimated arrival. Do you have to "declare". Or can you just ask ATC to do it?

Different scenario. Lets say engine running rough, but still able to hold altitude although slower than normal velocity. You now think there is greater than average likelihood of having to land off field, although it is not eminent, is there some way you can get ATC to initiate a rescue if you stop communicating?
 
coloradobluesky said:
Nobody cares how you pronounce Pan Pan.

Back to the question. If you have an alternator light on, and you want the lights turned on at your destination airport in one hour at the time of you estimated arrival. Do you have to "declare". Or can you just ask ATC to do it?

Different scenario. Lets say engine running rough, but still able to hold altitude although slower than normal velocity. You now think there is greater than average likelihood of having to land off field, although it is not eminent, is there some way you can get ATC to initiate a rescue if you stop communicating?
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It is always ok to ask ATC for something, you don't need to declare an emergency to make a request. There is also the factor that doing so may get ATC to declare for you depending on your statement and request.

In the second, if you let them know you have a problem and aren't certain about the outcome, or know approximately where your extended glide will terminate, let ATC know and they will get things rolling.
 
coloradobluesky said:
Back to the question. If you have an alternator light on, and you want the lights turned on at your destination airport in one hour at the time of you estimated arrival. Do you have to "declare". Or can you just ask ATC to do it?
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You can certainly ask, but if what you ask for is not normally authorized by the rules under which they operate, you may need to declare an emergency to get it. For example, a few years go I had a nose baggage door come open on takeoff. Following conversation ensued:

Me: Tower, I have a nose baggage door open, request immediate return to land.
Tower: Roger, turn downwind, you are number two behind a 182 on 4-mile final.
Me: Declaring an emergency.
Tower: Roger, cleared to land number one, break, Cessna 123 you're now number two behind the emergency aircraft on downwind, be prepared to go around.

Different scenario. Lets say engine running rough, but still able to hold altitude although slower than normal velocity. You now think there is greater than average likelihood of having to land off field, although it is not eminent, is there some way you can get ATC to initiate a rescue if you stop communicating?
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Sure -- declare an emergency, tell them what is happening, and make that request clearly and plainly.
 
Ron Levy said:
For example, a few years go I had a nose baggage door come open on takeoff. Following conversation ensued:

Me: Tower, I have a nose baggage door open, request immediate return to land.
Tower: Roger, turn downwind, you are number two behind a 182 on 4-mile final.
Me: Declaring an emergency.
Tower: Roger, cleared to land number one, break, Cessna 123 you're now number two behind the emergency aircraft on downwind, be prepared to go around.

Sure -- declare an emergency, tell them what is happening, and make that request clearly and plainly.
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Ron,

Any paperwork?

I would guess not.

In any case we should report those times so that newer pilots don't hesitate for fear of repurcussions.
 
coloradobluesky said:
Different scenario. Lets say engine running rough, but still able to hold altitude although slower than normal velocity. You now think there is greater than average likelihood of having to land off field, although it is not eminent, is there some way you can get ATC to initiate a rescue if you stop communicating?
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If you tell ATC the engine is running rough in a single they may well declare for you...at least they did for me. I was IFR w/fairly solid undercast. Anyway, they tracked me to landing and called the airport to confirm my arrival.
 
FastEddieB said:
Ron,

Any paperwork?

I would guess not.
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You'd guess wrong, but probably not in the way you were thinking. The airport fire department had a one-page form to fill out explaining what the emergency was because they automatically get rolled whenever anyone lands with an emergency, I guess to justify the expenditure of the diesel fuel. My personal impression was they were happy to have something to break up the boredom of sitting around the airport firehouse all day. But that was the only paperwork.; AFAIK, the FAA never heard about it, and they certainly never asked me about it.

In any case we should report those times so that newer pilots don't hesitate for fear of repurcussions.
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You got that right. The OWT's about all sorts of FAA inquisitions merely as a result of declaring an emergency could easily scare some poor schlub into making a really bad decision about declaring, and come to a bad outcome as a result (which really will lead the FAA to come asking pointed questions, starting with why the pilot didn't declare). The truth is usually the FSDO never even hears about it, and most of the times they do, the only thing that happens is the Safety Program Manager calls to say "good job handling that" and ask if there was any material problem deserving of an MDR/SDR so it doesn't happen to anyone else.

Reporting icing is another one like this, with some pilots of non-FIKI airplanes fearing trouble if they report it. Fact is that the only time the FSDO will hear about something like that is if the pilot involved plays "I've got a secret" with the controller about the situation until it's developed into a distress condition and then the controller has to violate normal rules to deal with it -- and that does result in a report to the FSDO (to excuse the controller from a deviation). OTOH, if you accurately report icing ASAP so the controller can help you get yourself out of it before it becomes a barn-burning emergency, the FSDO will never hear about it, but the PIREP will go out and maybe someone else will be able to avoid the same problem.
 
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Ron Levy said:
You'd guess wrong, but probably not in the way you were thinking. The airport fire department had a one-page form to fill out.
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Got it.

I assume that any time a pilot declares, somebody somewhere has to fill out something.

I think when they rolled the trucks on Long Island following the stuck valve in my Tiger, the Fire Department asked me some questions.

I really meant the report that the FAR's state may be requested of a pilot. Three declared by me over the years that I recall with no report ever requested of me.

But even so, if its an emergency, report writing should be the farthest thing from a pilot's mind.
 
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When you have an unexpected event affecting the flying capabilities of the plane it is NERVE WRACKING. Or at least it can be. If you are by yourself, just having someone to talk to often can help.

These emergencies are always "hangar talk worthy" and the grapevine is active, expect to have to "tell the story". And expect it to be knarly. I turned mine into a nice positive for me by sending a thank you letter to ATC. (they use that for brownie points in THEIR favor) Damn, Im letting that secret out of the bag, aren't I? The guy did help me out.

And please, if you are listening to the "story" don't try and take away the pilots man card just because he declared for something you consider minor. At the time, he didn't know what the seriousness of the incident was and he did the best he could. Hey, he made it back safely right? That's what counts!


Ya never really know what to do in many of these incidents. Neither does ATC. Everyone just does the best they can. Its not gonna go all that smoothly, ya know what I mean?
 
FastEddieB said:
Got it.

I assume that any time a pilot declares, somebody somewhere has to fill out something.
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I couldn't say for sure, but I am sure that on some occasions, the pilot/crew wasn't that "someone".

I really meant the report that the FAR's state may be requested of a pilot. Three declared by me over the years that I recall with no report ever requested of me.
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I think your experience is typical.

But even so, if its an emergency, report writing should be the farthest thing from a pilot's minds.
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Amen, Brother Edward, amen.
 
MAKG1 said:
......Now, I'm not sure what a "cowl rod" is for, as the Cessna 140 seems to have a rather basic latch similar but not identical to a Warrior. Maybe it's more serious than I think.
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I believe what he's referring to is the cowl hinge pin, in the piano hinge at the top of the cowling. I believe it ceased it's movement when it reached the windshield, and could go no further. But left about 6"+/- of the front portion of one side of the cowing un hinged, and flapping in the breeze.
 
bluerooster said:
I believe what he's referring to is the cowl hinge pin, in the piano hinge at the top of the cowling. I believe it ceased it's movement when it reached the windshield, and could go no further. But left about 6"+/- of the front portion of one side of the cowing un hinged, and flapping in the breeze.
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If that's the case, if I were in the OP's shoes, I'd have returned to Santa Rosa, called the owner, and asked what they want, asking for a lift if the answer was to leave the aircraft there. This is not a safety thing; it's to prevent grounding the aircraft for an extended period due to damage. STS does have mechanics, and I suspect it could be fixed in 5 minutes with a Vise Grip.

If it were me (a private pilot), I'd land at Petaluma instead. It's not an emergency, and not worth the violation hassle (even though "I thought it was an emergency" will almost certainly excuse it). Petaluma also has resident mechanics.

And done it at downwind speed, rather than full rental power.

Because it's not a safety thing, what the OP did was fine. Taking off without repairing it might be a no-no.

All this is really what the solo cross countries are about. S*** happens during solo cross-countries. Dealing with it safely and sensibly is the point, and it's a fabulous learning experience.

I had no less than four unusual occurrences during my long cross country. One of them was a mayday call from another aircraft, and a request from NorCal to relay. It resolved just fine, with a successful emergency landing at Tracy (which I was flying over at the time).
 
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Just a datapoint: Mary Schiavo, the CNN Aviation Analyst discussing the missing Asiana Airlines flight, didn't correct the female newscaster and also pronounced it "Pan Pan".
 
Another datapoint: She might be better for the layperson as she described AF 447 as "spiraling down".:(
 
Haha...I think I'm gonna like this forum.

Arguing about this is like arguing over whether to get ATIS or talk to clearance first.

BTW, I'm in the Navy and can tell you I've only ever heard people say Pan Pan...but that was on the ground while they were teaching us about it. I have never, ever (in 12 years) heard anybody say Pan Pan on the radio.
 
wlawr005 said:
Haha...I think I'm gonna like this forum.

Arguing about this is like arguing over whether to get ATIS or talk to clearance first.

BTW, I'm in the Navy and can tell you I've only ever heard people say Pan Pan...but that was on the ground while they were teaching us about it. I have never, ever (in 12 years) heard anybody say Pan Pan on the radio.
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C'Mon, everybody knows you get ATIS first. You should wait until we argue over the question, "Is ice wet"?
 
The Coast Guard here in Puget Sound pronounce it Pan Pan. I've heard it many times from many different voices over a few years.
 
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