Ran Into an Old Friend of Mine

Depends on the degree. 14th century French lit prolly doesn't qualify you to do much more than teach 14th century French lit. I would not want a journeyman bridge builder with 10 years of experience but no engineering degree designing a bridge. I would not want a highly skilled metalsmith designing an airplane. Engineering schools, and the exams that go with them are some of the hardest things to get through. I doubt this manager friend or any other would pass the PE exam after taking a prep. You can't BS your way through the PE exam.

I'm not trying to undermine the difficulty, or the reason that colleges are in place but you can absolutely pass the PE through self study. Will it be easy, no, will it be quick, hell no; but it can be done. I had a few professors in college who went to engineering school, then to grad school and then taught. They loved to go on and on about how much better they knew how to do things because they had studied it for so long but you know what they never had, any real world experience. They did not offer me much in the way of teaching, it seemed their only purpose was to profess, about how great they were. Every college has them, and sadly it's most of the folks that are there teaching.

My two very favorite professors were a 30 yr retired PE with a J3 on floats and a practicing metallurgist who was a partner in his firm and just enjoyed passing on the knowledge. I can tell you he definitely didn't do it for the money. We had no books in his classes, he would pull out actual studies his firm completed (pulling any confidential data out) and we'd go back through them. Never learned so much in a class and didn't even crack a book.

It's not about your education. It's about what you did with it (That which you had).

That's true for a few professions, such as engineering, medicine, and most of the applied sciences. (Math is a peculiar exception: Some talented students with a good grasp of the fundamentals can teach themselves rather advanced mathematics, using only textbooks.)

But yes, there are some professions that absolutely require college. I don't think I'd want a self-taught dentist, for example. But those professions have always required lengthy educations. My beef is with professions and occupations that didn't require degrees in the past and don't require degrees for any practical reason in the present, but for which degrees are required, anyway.

-Rich

I always enjoy the insight from you two, as a young lad (I like to think) please keep it coming!

And I got a degree in Physics/Mechanical Engineering and work in Finance...real fitting.
 
Today, you do not need a degree in anything to design a bridge or an airplane, however, trying to convince someone to build it as you planned it without a degree in your pocket would require that you be one hell of a salesman. It's the same when it comes to looking for any job, the more credentials you have, the less of a salesman you have to be to get the job.

Starting your own business is another matter entirely. Few people ask to see your credentials when buying a product from you. The thing that stops just about everyone from owning their own business, is they think they should start with the business they will end up with in thirty years, if they work hard, and are incredibly lucky.Therefore they can not afford to go into business for themselves.

Thousands of successful businesses started in garages and basements with just about no capital at all, those companies grew as their customer base grew. Every year, thousands of well financed companies fail during their first year simply because they lack the customer base needed to support their well financed (usually through loans) fancy operations.

You do not need a degree or a whole lot of money to start a small business, you do not even need a business plan. What you do need though is a better mouse trap, and the willingness to swallow your pride and get your hands dirty.

When I started my business in 1976 at 34 years of age, people laughed at me and said I wouldn't last six months. I sold my business 35 years later and it is still going strong. I had a total of $250.00 start up capital and a high school GED.

Starting a business part time deprives that new business of one major element needed to get it off the ground....fear...nothing builds a business faster than fear. You have to give it your all with nothing else to fall back on.

Microsoft started in a garage.

-John
 
Oh how I wish that was true. Most of the people I work with(both female and male) get their panties in a wad(sorry for the sexist remark) if you look at them cross-eyed. Try to give them a little constructive criticism to help them do their jobs better and they are running to their supervisors to complain how terribly they were treated, and the next thing you know your brought in to committee to explain why you are being hostile.

By and large, unfortunately you are correct. There are few companies out there that are still rooted in common sense, however. You may have to dig to find one, but they do still exist. I had a situation very similar to the scenario you describe happen to me - and when I got called on the carpet for it and they asked me why I said what I said, my reply was "Because incompetence is offensive and I won't put up with that crap."

They gave me a raise and a promotion.

But back to the OP - most (decent) companies now list educational requirements for a position with "or equivalent experience" next to it. That gives them the wiggle room to make an informed decision without paper to back it up, if the person is a good fit.
 
Yeah, but the resume' hits the round file long before that choice can be made at most places. It's there for folks who network and go around HR because they're known by the hiring manager.

Most of my jobs have been hired that way in my career. It's nice to hear, "I called you because we need someone who knows what they're doing..." from an old friend, but I did have a full year once where the timing just never worked out for that and took a menial "monitor the backup jobs" sysadmin position a friend had his boss create out of thin air, just to pay the bills that year.

In IT another methodology is to obtain specific tech certifications, but those expire and don't show whether you have any depth beyond that specific specialty. And people who don't know you may worry they'll be burnt by a pony with only one trick: Taking tests.

Some tests include hands on and are worth far more than others. Cisco, RedHat, and SANS come to mind... But keeping those three current would be an effective pay decrease of $10K every year or two. If you're doing consulting work, it's probably necessary at a large form anyway, but they might pay for it. Anywhere else, you're buying. So you have to weigh the cost/benefit and decide accordingly. A single SANS cert will run $5K or more, all in. If it doesn't make you at least $5K plus taxes, or save your job, or gain you one when you're on the street looking... Ain't worth it.

I have two friends pestering me to come back to conferencing. It's flattering and all, but I'm enjoying what I'm doing now and their hints at salary are virtually identical to where I'm at.

What they don't know is they could steal me in a heartbeat with significant paid time off, and by significant I mean 5 weeks a year is all it would take. The place I'm at right now is stingy with time off even for 10 year employees. They're very relaxed about in/out of office nowadays, but "instant availability" is critical, and that doesn't lend well to travel, especially via light aircraft. ;)

I'm coming up on five years and was hired to do something completely different than I ended up doing, but that's ok. The guy who hired me (VP, Engineering) had a political falling out with the upper management and was gone a month after I hired on, so I had to make myself useful in ways other than he intended. That's been a key to most of my career. "What needs to get done, and when do you need it done by?" and then just figure it out. Most telecom "lifers" don't have that attitude or they had it beat out of them by poor management or Union tactics, somewhere along the line.

Overall, perseverance and the knowledge that computers only do exactly as they're told, has been more useful to me than any of the "I love me" certificates and "wallpaper" so far.

We'll see how that works out in my 50s when tech-ageism starts to rear it's ugly head. Well that and the fact it's cheaper to hire the 20-something and make excuses for their mistakes, than to pay a "Senior" salary in IT still. The industry thinks outages and downtime are the norm. They do not have to be, but you have to cough up cash for the right gear and the right folks to run it, not to have outages be your "norm".
 
Today, you do not need a degree in anything to design a bridge or an airplane, however, trying to convince someone to build it as you planned it without a degree in your pocket would require that you be one hell of a salesman. It's the same when it comes to looking for any job, the more credentials you have, the less of a salesman you have to be to get the job.

Starting your own business is another matter entirely. Few people ask to see your credentials when buying a product from you. The thing that stops just about everyone from owning their own business, is they think they should start with the business they will end up with in thirty years, if they work hard, and are incredibly lucky.Therefore they can not afford to go into business for themselves.

Thousands of successful businesses started in garages and basements with just about no capital at all, those companies grew as their customer base grew. Every year, thousands of well financed companies fail during their first year simply because they lack the customer base needed to support their well financed (usually through loans) fancy operations.

You do not need a degree or a whole lot of money to start a small business, you do not even need a business plan. What you do need though is a better mouse trap, and the willingness to swallow your pride and get your hands dirty.

When I started my business in 1976 at 34 years of age, people laughed at me and said I wouldn't last six months. I sold my business 35 years later and it is still going strong. I had a total of $250.00 start up capital and a high school GED.

Starting a business part time deprives that new business of one major element needed to get it off the ground....fear...nothing builds a business faster than fear. You have to give it your all with nothing else to fall back on.

Microsoft started in a garage.

-John

I can relate to you, John. I started my company with a tool kit, a cell phone, a Web site, and a borrowed car.

Unlike you, however, the guy I sold to managed to drive the business into the ground in about a year. His mistake was not being available, and my clients insisted on it because they were used to me. All of my business clients had had all of my phone numbers, and I always had a backup if I wanted to really get lost for a few days.

The guy I sold to, on the other hand, would disappear for days on end without even checking his voice mail; and within a year, he'd lost all of the best accounts he'd bought from me. His excuse: He needed some personal time. Well, now he has plenty.

-Rich
 
I can relate to you, John. I started my company with a tool kit, a cell phone, a Web site, and a borrowed car.

Unlike you, however, the guy I sold to managed to drive the business into the ground in about a year. His mistake was not being available, and my clients insisted on it because they were used to me. All of my business clients had had all of my phone numbers, and I always had a backup if I wanted to really get lost for a few days.

The guy I sold to, on the other hand, would disappear for days on end without even checking his voice mail; and within a year, he'd lost all of the best accounts he'd bought from me. His excuse: He needed some personal time. Well, now he has plenty.

-Rich

My business was retail custom picture framing, the same thing happens a way to much in that industry, the good ol "Be back in one hour" sign on the door.

A small framing shop is lucky to get two or three customers a day, yet they are convinced that sign on the door makes perfect sense. People load up their projects in their cars then drive to your shop only to find your little sign on the door, usually just drive over to a more professionally run operation.

I've seen countless good framers go out of business over the years for that one reason. They sit in their shops doing nothing because they don't have any work, they get bored and take off for a bit and miss the work they would have had. The heck of it is, it is impossible to convince them of that. :mad2:

-John
 
As with everything else it depends, I like where I sit with an extra four years experience compared to what I would have had I gone to college.
 
A thought with a different perspective concerning college. When I look back at all of the things I have done in my life, the good, the bad, the nice, the ugly, I always look at my four years in college as some of the happiest, and most satisfying years of my life. I am in one of those professions that you cannot do without formal degrees, but four years of college, did a lot more for me and my perspectives on life, than anything else in my life. College was an equal mixture of learning, fun, adventure, and excitement. I met people, and explored things that I would never have done without college. There was rarely any disappointment and certainly no regret except maybe I did not take as much advantage of those four years as I could have.

I know not everyone's college experience is as positive as mine, but there is nothing in the world that will ever make me want to give those four years up.

There is no doubt in my mind that if I could live any four years of my life over again, it would be college, and I would not change a thing.
 
A thought with a different perspective concerning college. When I look back at all of the things I have done in my life, the good, the bad, the nice, the ugly, I always look at my four years in college as some of the happiest, and most satisfying years of my life. I am in one of those professions that you cannot do without formal degrees, but four years of college, did a lot more for me and my perspectives on life, than anything else in my life. College was an equal mixture of learning, fun, adventure, and excitement. I met people, and explored things that I would never have done without college. There was rarely any disappointment and certainly no regret except maybe I did not take as much advantage of those four years as I could have.

I know not everyone's college experience is as positive as mine, but there is nothing in the world that will ever make me want to give those four years up.

There is no doubt in my mind that if I could live any four years of my life over again, it would be college, and I would not change a thing.

It beats workin'. ;) ;) ;)
 
It beats workin'. ;) ;) ;)

Personally I enjoy my work and I get paid for the perks


"an equal mixture of learning, fun, adventure, and excitement. I met people, and explored things that I would never have done".

the other poster stated...
 
I respectfully disagree....:yes:..

There have been NUMEROUS examples of failures through out the history of "Engineered Projects"... A simple piece of paper does NOT guarantee success...

I would personally take a " Highly Skilled Metalsmith" over a average Engineer any day.... IMHO...

One has ( been there, done that ), the other just read it in a book...:rolleyes:

This is stunning.

You would prefer to use a person who has made a bridge collapse and killed hundreds of people, over someone who has studied how not to do that?

Really? REALLY? Have you thought that through or are you shooting from the hip?

Colossal engineering mistakes do happen, but they are mercifully rare. And sometimes, the "engineering" mistakes are actually "as built" changes made in the field by unqualified personnel. The KC Hyatt coming to mind most easily... If you want to see what uneducated engineering can do, hang out in Afghanistan or Turkey or Haiti when a moderate earthquake comes around and see the results. Then compare it to California or Japan, where civil engineers are licensed and required to have degrees.

There are a number of smart people out there with no degrees. This doesn't mean I want them designing complex systems by trial and error, or by staying at a Holiday Inn Express the previous night.
 
I am reading Two years before the mast(recommended, available free as an ebook) the author took two years off from Harvard and joined a merchant ship, there is a bit where he is describing an intelligent nonformally educated sailor and says something to the effect of 'he had more respect for college then college deserves' true in 1840, true today.
 
This is stunning.

You would prefer to use a person who has made a bridge collapse and killed hundreds of people, over someone who has studied how not to do that?

Really? REALLY? Have you thought that through or are you shooting from the hip?

Colossal engineering mistakes do happen, but they are mercifully rare. And sometimes, the "engineering" mistakes are actually "as built" changes made in the field by unqualified personnel. The KC Hyatt coming to mind most easily... If you want to see what uneducated engineering can do, hang out in Afghanistan or Turkey or Haiti when a moderate earthquake comes around and see the results. Then compare it to California or Japan, where civil engineers are licensed and required to have degrees.

There are a number of smart people out there with no degrees. This doesn't mean I want them designing complex systems by trial and error, or by staying at a Holiday Inn Express the previous night.

Don't be stunned..... Explain the " ENGINEERED' bridge in Minn that collapsed and killed a few dozen.... Or the one in Wash state, or numerous other engineering FAILURES..... And they don't have to be just a bridge either...:no:

Now........ name a few that were NOT engineered that failed..:dunno::dunno::rolleyes:
 
A thought with a different perspective concerning college. When I look back at all of the things I have done in my life, the good, the bad, the nice, the ugly, I always look at my four years in college as some of the happiest, and most satisfying years of my life. I am in one of those professions that you cannot do without formal degrees, but four years of college, did a lot more for me and my perspectives on life, than anything else in my life. College was an equal mixture of learning, fun, adventure, and excitement. I met people, and explored things that I would never have done without college. There was rarely any disappointment and certainly no regret except maybe I did not take as much advantage of those four years as I could have.

I know not everyone's college experience is as positive as mine, but there is nothing in the world that will ever make me want to give those four years up.

There is no doubt in my mind that if I could live any four years of my life over again, it would be college, and I would not change a thing.

My college years were kind of a blast, too. I just didn't learn very much that turned out to be particularly useful except for math and English.

I wish I could add history to that list, but I only had one history professor who I believe, in retrospect, had any idea what he was talking about. Ironically, he was a card-carrying Socialist, so we were at extreme opposite ends of the philosophical spectrum. But man, that guy could teach. He put the rest of the department to shame.

It was Phil who fleshed out my Libertarianism, actually. There are a lot of party planks that I could support in theory were it not for the historical record of how those ideas worked out in practice. I could say more, but then we'd wind up in SZ.

-Rich
 
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