Radials on departure and GPS

Discussion in 'Cleared for the Approach' started by Jaybird180, Apr 13, 2012.

  1. Jaybird180

    Jaybird180 Final Approach

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    Watching my favorite utube video, which includes the Livermore one DP. The clearance granted included V244 to ALTAM to Manteca.

    I happen to have an IFR GPS, but for sake of the question assume I'm using dual VOR and a VFR GPS for SA. How do I define V244 in the GPS? Should I use OBS mode defined by the VOR radial?

    I've tried following some approaches and DPs with foreflight; I don't think it does it.
     
  2. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    TF leg from OAK to ALTAM, then ALTAM to ECA
    Make the leg OAK to ALTAM the active leg, and fly the headings to intercept that leg.
     
  3. spiderweb

    spiderweb Final Approach

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    What type of GPS do you have?
     
  4. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    Since GPS bearings may not match the airway radial, usually the best way to do it is to put in the VOR and then the next intersection out and fly it as a fix-defined leg. However, in this case, the best way is to load the procedure and let the GPS take care of the rest.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2012
  5. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    His premise was a VFR GPS used as a "back up" to VOR navigation.
     
  6. Captain

    Captain Final Approach

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    Foreflight does do stars and DPs. I just confirmed it with the following entry in the "route" section:

    KPBI BUFIT1.BUFIT KMIA

    it asked me which runway and gave me multiple choice. I picked 10L and it then drew the route. I use is for STARs all the time. In that case the format is "ABCDE.ABCDE4 KXYZ".
     
  7. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    Many VFR GPS's have DP's in them. If not, back to what I said about putting in the VOR and the intersection.
     
  8. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    I didn't know that. Do they have IAPs too?

    I recall my old Garmin 195 had full IAPs at one time, then Garmin decided there was too much potential liability.
     
  9. Jaybird180

    Jaybird180 Final Approach

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    Hmmmmmm, not following you on the syntax
     
  10. Captain

    Captain Final Approach

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    Say I'm flying from KATL to KTEB. I want to fly the DAWGS5 DP off runway 28 and do the JAIKE3 STAR from the FAK transition.

    In foreflight go to he map tab. In the window in the upper right type:

    KATL 28.DAWGS5.SPA FAK.JAIKE3 KTEB

    That will make it draw the route with he DP and STAR. Fly safe.
     
  11. EppyGA

    EppyGA Final Approach

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    Might be because the example he gave was a DP and then the syntax he gave was for a STAR.

    Try this KPBI BLUFI.BLUFI1 KMIA

    That will give the routing using a STAR into KMIA.

    IMHO not very useful for us small Piper and Cessna folks.


    P.S. The Captain was replying as I was so he beat me to it.
     
  12. Captain

    Captain Final Approach

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    Sorry, I thought I was clear. The DP was an actual one off KPBI. BUFIT1.BUFIT is the correct format. For the STAR I just used an example to show the format. I used ABCDE.ABCDE4.

    The point was to show the DP/STAR fix relationship. Sorry for any confusion.
     
  13. Jaybird180

    Jaybird180 Final Approach

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    I copied and pasted into the search window and it drew it. Nice. I should have looked at pg23 of the pilots guide. What's the SPA for in the example given?
     
  14. EppyGA

    EppyGA Final Approach

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    The Spartanburg transition of the DP. Go to Airports and search on KATL, then go to the procedures tab, Departure and tap on the DGS FIVE (RNAV), Cont.1 and look about midway down the page.

    Actually if you look at the first page of the DP you can see how this DP flows the departing traffic up to DAWGS and then on to SPA (Spartanburg VOR)
     
    Last edited: Apr 14, 2012
  15. Piloto

    Piloto Line Up and Wait

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    One of the features I love on the Aera 560 is the airway depictions for North and South America. It makes it much easier to intercept and fly an airway than using paper charts.

    José
     
  16. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    Some do, some don't. Remember that some VFR GPS's are just IFR GPS's that don't have all the necessary ancilliary devices, but still have the same database.
     
  17. Dave Siciliano

    Dave Siciliano Final Approach

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    On the Garmin 530/430 behind which I fly, all the DPs and STARs are in the database. I also use Foreflight and they are in there, you just have to know the proper syntax. If you're planning a flight, Fltplan.com shows the routes most recently filed. Doesn't mean that's what you'll receive, but it's a good start for planning purposes. Just look at what aircraft type filed that plan so you're not using something that wouldn't apply to your aircraft.
    The DPs from my airport show flying to a VOR over D/FW first. Of course, they vector you out and take you another direction; so, when you highlight an active leg, you should anticipate vectors to an outbound leg.

    I got DBs and STARs in my A-36; so, they certainly can apply to smaller GA aircraft if you file IFR.

    Best,

    Dave
     
  18. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    By DPs, you mean the ones that are charted, right? I've never found a textual ODP in a 530W.
     
  19. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    I understand that having bought many databases for my 195, then my 296. But, I never saw any kind of ODP or DP, nor much of an IAP.
     
  20. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    Ah, so you're talking handhelds, not installed units. True, not many handhelds have DP's or IAP's, but some do, e.g., 696/796.
     
  21. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Not even all the charted ones are there. I don't have a 430, but I'd bet capital 8 isn't in there (it's not in the 480). I've always found that one to be a bit spurious because 9 times out of 10 I get a clearance that repeats everything that they might have omitted by issuing the SID.
     
  22. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    My experience has been: if a ODP or SID is charted it is in the 500W series and the G-1000 series. These series share a common database. The 480 does not.

    If you provide me with a example of a charted ODP or SID that is not in the 480, tell me the name and I'll look it up in the Olathe equipment.:)
     
  23. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    I have no experience with VFR panel mounts. Will they do an LPV IAP? If not they have a modified database. I can't imagine an avionics vendor placing the LPV final segment path point record in any VFR unit, panel mount or hand-held.
     
  24. John Collins

    John Collins Pattern Altitude

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    My GPSMAP 696 has most approaches in its database, but only includes the FAF and the MAP. It has ILS and LPV only approaches as well as most others. It is just for situational awareness and can't be used for navigation on any approach. If I bring up the approach chart, they are geo referenced and I can display the aircraft position on the approach chart.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2012
  25. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    Do you get a glideslope for ILS and LPV on the GPSMAP 696?
     
  26. dell30rb

    dell30rb Final Approach

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    Dont have a 696 but i think the answer is yes if you switch to the screen with a 6pack
     
  27. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    That's like asking if a VFR airplane will cruise at 150 knots. Some will, some won't -- depends on which one it is and how it's installed. Also, LPV is simply a subset of an RNAV(GPS) approach, and you can find the basic approach in equipment that doesn't even have WAAS even if you aren't allowed to fly it to LPV mins or have it display the vertical guidance.
     
  28. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    You shouldn't be allowed to fly it to any minimums. I trust that is what you are saying. LPV is a very unique "subset' of RNAV and functions quite differently than other aspects of RNAV.
     
  29. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    I can't think of a reason in the world (legal or safety) why one should not be flying an RNAV(GPS) approach to the LNAV mins using nonprecision procedures with a non-WAAS IFR/approach GPS even if there are LPV mins on that chart. That would be like saying you shouldn't be allowed to fly an ILS approach to the LOC minimums on the chart if you don't have a GS.

    Or is there another point you're trying to make that I'm missing completely?
     
  30. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    I agree with your statement made in this quote. But, previously I thought we were speaking of VFR panel mounts that supposedly can fly LPV.
     
  31. John Collins

    John Collins Pattern Altitude

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    I may be wrong, but IIRC the 696 only depicts the lateral path for the approach from the FAF to the MAP. I think there is vertical guidance outside of the FAF, but that it goes away at the FAF so as to not tempt the pilot to use if for the final approach segment. The approach guidance is very limited and does not show waypoints outside of the FAF and is for situational awareness only and may not be used for any IFR navigation including enroute, terminal, or approach. There are no RAIM or WAAS integrity functions performed.
     
  32. Tom-D

    Tom-D Touchdown! Greaser!

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    My Radial, departs just fine with or with out a GPS.
     
  33. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    That has been the historical stance. One of my Garmin avionics friends stated to me a long time ago that the hand-helds were a consumer product, no different than one of their automotive GPS units.

    I have never discussed with them the VFR panel mounts. That isn't in my area of work interest these days.
     
  34. Jaybird180

    Jaybird180 Final Approach

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    Ok, this is throwing me. I thought you couldn't do either if you didn't have the proper (and approved) equipment.
     
  35. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    That's correct. But just because an approach has ILS mins for which a GS is required doesn't mean you can't legally fly it to the LOC mins on that chart if you have a LOC receiver but no GS. Likewise, just because an RNAV(GPS) approach has LPV mins for which you need a WAAS IFR/approach GPS doesn't mean you can't legally fly it IFR to the LNAV mins on that chart using a non-WAAS IFR/approach GPS.

    Now, maybe there is an RNAV(GPS) approach out there which has LPV mins but no LNAV mins, in which case you couldn't fly it at all without a WAAS IFR/approach GPS, but I haven't seen one like that yet.

    ...and the sound you hear is fingers punching keys trying to find such an approach.:D
     
  36. John Collins

    John Collins Pattern Altitude

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    Hunt and peck no longer.

    http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1204/00680RZ26.PDF
     
  37. poadeleted20

    poadeleted20 Deleted

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    Well, there you go, Wally -- an RNAV(GPS) approach you can only fly with a WAAS IFR/approach GPS. It's interesting to compare it with the RNAV(GPS) Y Rwy 26 there, which is LNAV only. And I'm sure there are also ILS approaches with no LOC option, too. However, if the LNAV or LOC mins are there, you can fly it without the WAAS or GS, respectively -- just not so low. Now, can anyone find an airport with separate LOC and ILS approaches to the same runway using the same localizer (same direction, not BC vs FC)?
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2012
  38. aterpster

    aterpster Pattern Altitude

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    Why are you telling me this? As if I didn't know aready.:confused: