Race car between cyclecart and formula vee?

[FloridaFlier_86]

This would be better posted on a car forum but i have enough logins already. i just recently discovered cyclecarts on youtube (lawnmower engine , motorcycle tires, low budget & prewar themed) and while cool, i would prefer to get into something just a little faster (more than 6.5 hp) and with an h pattern shifter. Since i only recently discovered cyclecarts, maybe theres something else out there undiscovered that isnt a full race car like a formula vee or spec racer ford, and not a go kart? Racing karts are fast but dont have quite the cool factor im looking for. I was thinking engine wise, a half vw motor would be ideal but i dont know if the half vw would still bolt to a vw transaxle… if only there was a 1l V8 on the market

 

[robin ardoin]

Have you ever run a racing kart of any variety? A 4 stroke Briggs powered/centrifugal clutch racing kart can provide PLENTY of fun. I raced them on the WKA Gold Cup circuit along with my son for a few years before moving into formula cars. On the outside they may look boring but the nimbleness on a well set up chassis is amazing. If that is not enough consider a shifter kart (uses a motorcycle engine with the associated sequential gearbox). Scary quick and fast...and too much for the uninitiated, IMO. As far as the lack of "cool factor".....drive one and then tell me there is no kool factor. Look at them like a scale F1 car. A safer yet high performance option with open wheels is an Ariel Atom ( https://www.arielna.com/arielatom ). If you live anywhere near Jacksonville, the 103rd Street sports complex has one of the best karting tracks I have driven on (and I've driven all the big ones east of the Mississippi). If you show up there you might find someone that is willing to let you hop in for a few laps in a kart. The looong back stretch was the only kart track where true drafting was an important last lap strategy in a Briggs kart...you NEVER wanted to be in the lead on the last lap as you usually got relegated out of the top five if so. https://www.coj.net/departments/par...programming/parks/103rd-street-sports-complex

 

[aterry1067]

The Legend cars always looked fun to me. They are a blast to watch and, relatively speaking, are affordable to get full on into the racing scene.

Driving a $17,500 Legend Car Proves Affordable Racing Is Alive and Well

Lightweight, powerful, and a lot of fun, it’s hard to see any downsides to the 5/8ths-scale Legend car racing oddity.

www.thedrive.com

Home

Legend Cars

 

[aterry1067]

Have you ever run a racing kart of any variety? A 4 stroke Briggs powered/centrifugal clutch racing kart can provide PLENTY of fun. I raced them on the WKA Gold Cup circuit along with my son for a few years before moving into formula cars. On the outside they may look boring but the nimbleness on a well set up chassis is amazing. If that is not enough consider a shifter kart (uses a motorcycle engine with the associated sequential gearbox). Scary quick and fast...and too much for the uninitiated, IMO. As far as the lack of "cool factor".....drive one and then tell me there is no kool factor. Look at them like a scale F1 car. A safer yet high performance option with open wheels is an Ariel Atom ( https://www.arielna.com/arielatom ). If you live anywhere near Jacksonville, the 103rd Street sports complex has one of the best karting tracks I have driven on (and I've driven all the big ones east of the Mississippi). If you show up there you might find someone that is willing to let you hop in for a few laps in a kart. The looong back stretch was the only kart track where true drafting was an important last lap strategy in a Briggs kart...you NEVER wanted to be in the lead on the last lap as you usually got relegated out of the top five if so. https://www.coj.net/departments/par...programming/parks/103rd-street-sports-complex

I used to race a little in SCCA in Vegas, and we would often have a few shifter carts that would come out to run the track. Their times were usually about half of what the cars were running. I asked one of the drivers, who drove both an SCCA car and a shifter cart, how big the difference was, and his response was “once you drive a shifter cart, you realize all the other cars are going in slow motion.” I have yet to drive one, but I would love to…I won’t, because I don’t need another motor based hobby, but it would be soooo much fun.

 

[FloridaFlier_86]

I'm lucky to live about 20 minutes from Bushnell Motorsports Park and I'm not sure what model or hp their karts are, but the website says 40+mph and they are a lot of fun, I've been there maybe half a dozen times. I'll try to remember to check out the 103rd Street sports complex next time I'm up around JAX. I should have clarified that by "cool factor" I mean something that looks more like a car than a go kart, especially a specific vintage type. The Legends cars do look fun but I'd probably get into Spec Racer Ford if I had that kind of money to spend on racing. Those kinds of series and shifter karts are actually a little more intense than my happy medium: like 40-60 horsepower max, not the 125+hp of legends cars / SRF. I'm thinking of something my Dad (who's getting up there in years) could do, along with others who might be intimidated by the danger of true race speeds and or the lack of protection of a kart.

 

[robin ardoin]

A Spec Miata, don’t laugh, is actually a great low cost car that is a hoot to toss around. It will teach excellent driving skills as its modest hp/wt ratio makes mistakes really show up in your lap times. The weight balance on a stock Miata is about as close to ideal for a road race car as you can get and parts are cheap. You can pick up a used one for cheap and use it for track days, autocross and also sanctioned road races. They are very versatile. Your comment on safety and race karts is on point; my concerns as speeds grew, pushed me, and then my son, into cars. Even the open wheel formula cars we ran were safer than the karts we raced although we lost a fellow driver in the very first race my son entered.

 

[Matthew Johnson]

A Spec Miata, don’t laugh, is actually a great low cost car that is a hoot to toss around. It will teach excellent driving skills as its modest hp/wt ratio makes mistakes really show up in your lap times. The weight balance on a stock Miata is about as close to ideal for a road race car as you can get and parts are cheap. You can pick up a used one for cheap and use it for track days, autocross and also sanctioned road races. They are very versatile. Your comment on safety and race karts is on point; my concerns as speeds grew, pushed me, and then my son, into cars. Even the open wheel formula cars we ran were safer than the karts we raced although we lost a fellow driver in the very first race my son entered.

I also used to race a Spec Miata, and would echo everything you said plus the large field sizes for SM at both Regional and National SCCA races made for a lot of fun racing no matter where your skill and preparation level put you within the pack. And they are durable enough that you can drive them to/from events (most of the time) - and there is not much more satisfying passing someone on the highway (that you passed on track an hour or so ago) towing their SM behind a huge motor home!

 

[Dave Arata]

In the racecar world, the answer is ALWAYS Miata. What about a family car? Two Miatas.

 

[Half Fast]

...maybe theres something else out there undiscovered that isnt a full race car like a formula vee or spec racer ford, and not a go kart?

You might consider SCCA Formula 600.

 

[FloridaFlier_86]

Now formula 600 looks FUN, except for when I saw "CVT".. that's worse than a tricycle gear airplane IMO lol. But I do see some have sequential shifters. I'll look into that more someday...

 

[Half Fast]

Now formula 600 looks FUN, except for when I saw "CVT".. that's worse than a tricycle gear airplane IMO lol. But I do see some have sequential shifters. I'll look into that more someday...

Those little suckers are fast, too. Top speeds are pushing 150, though you probably won't reach it at most tracks.

 

[kaiser]

F500 is the CVT (and it's not too bad to maintain). My dad raced these for decades and I've gotten to spend a bit of time in them as well. I understood the new F600 class was motorcycle engine + sequential shift (full disclosure I quit driving before F600 came out).

The hardest part of F500/600? is the solid rear axle, gotta be super light on the gas until you're through the corner

 

[kaiser]

Those little suckers are fast, too. Top speeds are pushing 150, though you probably won't reach it at most tracks.

IIRC I think we saw 115-125 into the braking zone at turn 5 Road America

 

[FloridaFlier_86]

Spec Miata and Caterham / Lotus 7 are both series I would love to participate in someday, when the financials permit... the Lotus 7 is pretty close to my ideal machine, but it seems like they get raced a lot more in the UK and Europe? More research needed

 

[Half Fast]

IIRC I think we saw 115-125 into the braking zone at turn 5 Road America

The 600s were turning something over 130 at mid Ohio. I'd be curious what they'll do on the Sebring back straight, or maybe Daytona.

 

[Pinecone]

SRF. True spec class, so driver skill is what gets you to the front of the pack. You don't have to stock spare parts as every race has a CSR there with parts. And a real race car, not a marginally converted street car. Inboard suspension. Lock to lock is about 180 degrees. Fiberglass body work, so easier to repair.

Spec Miata has the advantage of more cars, so there is always someone to race. I started in SRF when40+ car fields were not abnormal, but not these days.

 

[robin ardoin]

The 600s were turning something over 130 at mid Ohio. I'd be curious what they'll do on the Sebring back straight, or maybe Daytona.

With the 'suspension' of the F500/600 you better get the apex in 17 at Sebring gnats a$$ed or you would be like a flat stone skipping across a pond. Turn 1 and 17 at Sebring are life...all the rest of the track is just waiting! (with credit to Steve McQueen)

 

[Half Fast]

With the 'suspension' of the F500/600 you better get the apex in 17 at Sebring gnats a$$ed or you would be like a flat stone skipping across a pond. Turn 1 and 17 at Sebring are life...all the rest of the track is just waiting! (with credit to Steve McQueen)

Ever gone into T17 at sunset? They call that turn "Sunset Bend" because you're so blinded by the setting sun you're likely to bend your car.

The hairpin is just as bad. You're looking directly into the sun, so you watch out the side instead, hit the brakes at your marker, count 3 and turn in.

I absolutely hated being in the last group at Sebring.

 

[Racerx]

The Legend cars always looked fun to me. They are a blast to watch and, relatively speaking, are affordable to get full on into the racing scene.

Driving a $17,500 Legend Car Proves Affordable Racing Is Alive and Well

Lightweight, powerful, and a lot of fun, it’s hard to see any downsides to the 5/8ths-scale Legend car racing oddity.

www.thedrive.com

Home

Legend Cars

I raced legend cars in high school. Great class. Will eventually get back into them. Not sure if this would be the class OP is looking for. I ran on dirt, asphalt, and a road course. Not nearly as many road course races as dirt or asphalt. Using a motorcycle engine, they're also not an H pattern. But that worked out well when I wrecked with a then Nascar driver and broke my wrist and had a hard cast from finger tips to bicep.

They new engine is a Yamaha 3 cylinder liquid cooled, but the old engine was 1250cc air cooled Yamaha that are still around on the older cars. Around 140hp. Can pretty much run the car anywhere in the country. Uses an old Toyota pumpkin and have a plethora of options depending on track.

Can't believe this was 18 years ago. If you stick out the video til the end you'll get to see an awkward 16 yr old me do an interview. I shut it off just before that.

 

[Racerx]

I'm lucky to live about 20 minutes from Bushnell Motorsports Park and I'm not sure what model or hp their karts are, but the website says 40+mph and they are a lot of fun, I've been there maybe half a dozen times. I'll try to remember to check out the 103rd Street sports complex next time I'm up around JAX. I should have clarified that by "cool factor" I mean something that looks more like a car than a go kart, especially a specific vintage type. The Legends cars do look fun but I'd probably get into Spec Racer Ford if I had that kind of money to spend on racing. Those kinds of series and shifter karts are actually a little more intense than my happy medium: like 40-60 horsepower max, not the 125+hp of legends cars / SRF. I'm thinking of something my Dad (who's getting up there in years) could do, along with others who might be intimidated by the danger of true race speeds and or the lack of protection of a kart.

Fwiw, the legend cars are pretty damn safe and when I was running them I was running against guys in their 70's, the one gentleman ended up flipping his several times after passing a slower car. Faster car always seems to be the one to flip after touching tires. He walked away and raced the next night at a different track with his old car. Nationally they have 4 divisions but at your local tracks they usually don't have the car counts to run 4 races. On 1/3 mile oval tracks I set track record with a broken wrist (not sure how I was faster with one arm) at 18.154...65mph average. Back then the spec tire was a hard bf Goodrich. Now it's a softer tire. Same engines, same chassis, same tires. Setup and driver. We'd go to national races and see Bubba Wallace with a stacker trailer and 3 cars inside and an entourage of people helping.

You can find a good used legend car in the 8k range.

 

[FloridaFlier_86]

How much is a legends car motor worth? Id actually like to buy a legends car roller sans motor to use as a racing sim cockpit within the next couple years if i can get a good deal, and maybe eventually put a motor in to actually run outdoors lol

 

[FloridaFlier_86]

I didn't know that about the CSR with spares on hand, thats pretty cool!

SRF. True spec class, so driver skill is what gets you to the front of the pack. You don't have to stock spare parts as every race has a CSR there with parts. And a real race car, not a marginally converted street car. Inboard suspension. Lock to lock is about 180 degrees. Fiberglass body work, so easier to repair.

Spec Miata has the advantage of more cars, so there is always someone to race. I started in SRF when40+ car fields were not abnormal, but not these days.

To

 

[robin ardoin]

Many Spec classes have CSR's that will do 'arrive and drive'; you bring your driving gear and they put you in a car for a fee plus costs. Common in the SRF community and, at one time, was common in the spec Miata class. This is great for the less mechanically inclined with deeper pockets. The Formula Mazda CSR I worked with out of Granbury, TX had a couple of cars for this purpose. More popular was CSR supported/maintained customer owned cars that were stored/transported/supported trackside. This made it easy to race (or track the car at Motorsports Ranch where the shop was located) if you did not want to haul and wench on your own car. Regardless, most of the popular spec classes has great parts and technical support for owner driven cars at SCCA events.

 

[Half Fast]

Many Spec classes have CSR's that will do 'arrive and drive';....

If you do an arrive & drive deal, be sure you know who's responsible for any damage to the car and what the limits are. What looks like a reasonably priced weekend can turn pricey very quickly.

A few years ago at Daytona, there was a young guy doing an arrive & drive in an ITS RX7 (second gen). I think the rental was about $2k for the weekend but he was required to post a bond for $25k for potential damage. He didn't have much cash, so he put the whole deal on a credit card. (Got this from talking with his friends afterward.) During the race, he got loose trying to go low through the tri-oval turn on the front straight and slid up into a buddy of mine's car, putting both of them into the wall at 140 or so.

Both cars were write-offs. My buddy salvaged the engine and some other parts and built a new car, but the young guy was instantly saddled with $27k on his credit card when he had been looking forward to a fun weekend for a couple of grand.

C'est la racing.

 

[Half Fast]

BTW - this was the company that did the RX7 arrive & drive I mentioned above.

SpeedSource Ceases Operations; Equipment Up for Auction – Sportscar365

SpeedSource cars, equipment to go up for auction later this month as team ceases activity...

sportscar365.com

Much like aviation, it's pretty simple to make a small fortune in auto racing: just start with a big one.

 

[FloridaFlier_86]

Thunder Roadster is another series that is intruiging. A few years ago i was looking into it but it didn't seem that popular.. however the FB community seems pretty active. I had forgotton about TR until rediscovering today while on a legends car page. There's so much fun out there for ppl with time and money.. of which i have hardly any of either..

 

[robin ardoin]

If you do an arrive & drive deal, be sure you know who's responsible for any damage to the car and what the limits are. What looks like a reasonably priced weekend can turn pricey very quickly.

The one time I did an arrive and drive was for a NASA 6hr endurance race in Spec Miata class. We bought insurance but the deductible was $4K....palatable between myself and the other driver. In 2011, my son was hired by a team in the Formula Mazda series to coach their two drivers/assist engineering at the 2011 Grand Prix du Trois Riviere; my son had won the event and placed second both times we ran there in the series. The night of the practice day the team owner, chief mechanic, the engineer and my son were kidding around and drinking beer when the mechanic suggested they had enough spares to assemble a complete car and that my son would drive it in the race . Fortunately the team used him as a test mule for their cars and had a seat pour for him that was stored in the attic of the hauler and my son had his driving gear and a current FIA license. The next morning, quite early, my son called my wife and I and asked if he could run the car and it would only cost insurance and a set of tires. The insurance had a deductible of $20K (ouch!...when considering how common it is to rip of a corner or two on a tight street circuit) and cost $8K for the quali day and the race. We green lighted the deal and the team put together a car just in time to make qualifying. He put it in 6th position but stated he was mostly doing a shakedown in his allotted time to make sure it all stayed together and told me he was confident he could run at the pointy end of the field during the race. Confident little mf'er, so I thought. During the race he survived the first three corners and made it to the back straight in 3rd and proceeded to get into second with about 5 laps to go. Connor Daly, Derik's son, was leading and Alex filled his mirrors enough that he started turning in too early inducing a push that will grain the tires kill the front grip. He patiently waited for the inevitable to happen on the white flag lap and passed him, driving off easily for his second win at that venue. Don't mess with a crafty veteran...hehe. The best news was not a scratch on the car!

I did consume most of the Miata deductible though.

 

[Half Fast]

Connor Daly, Derik's son, was leading and Alex filled his mirrors enough that he started turning in too early inducing a push that will grain the tires kill the front grip. He patiently waited for the inevitable to happen on the white flag lap and passed him, driving off easily for his second win at that venue. Don't mess with a crafty veteran...hehe.

People who've never raced don't realize how much it's like playing a game of chess, especially when the cars are closely matched and you win by faking your opponent into a mistake. It's challenging (and fun!) to be able to think strategically while doing the second-by-second driving at high speed and keeping your car healthy enough to finish the race.

I'm starting to remember how much fun driving was. I should probably lie down and close my eyes for an hour or so before I start doing serious damage to my retirement savings....

 

[FormerHangie]

People who've never raced don't realize how much it's like playing a game of chess, especially when the cars are closely matched and you win by faking your opponent into a mistake. It's challenging (and fun!) to be able to think strategically while doing the second-by-second driving at high speed and keeping your car healthy enough to finish the race.

I'm starting to remember how much fun driving was. I should probably lie down and close my eyes for an hour or so before I start doing serious damage to my retirement savings....

You could just do track days, you can use your daily driver, the entry cost isn't too bad, and your tires will last quite a while. At my age I have zero interest in competing for anything, and at this point of my life track driving is just right. It wouldn't have been enough when I was in my 20s or 30s, but it's just right now.

 

[Half Fast]

You could just do track days, you can use your daily driver, the entry cost isn't too bad, and your tires will last quite a while. At my age I have zero interest in competing for anything, and at this point of my life track driving is just right. It wouldn't have been enough when I was in my 20s or 30s, but it's just right now.

If it was about just going fast, I might consider that. But what I loved was the competition: getting a better start and passing a couple of cars before T1, setting somebody up for a pass, defending against a pass, suckering a competitor into using up his brakes, using a slower car as a pick, not holding a tight line in order to force an outside car into the marbles, squeezing somebody close to the wall to see if they’ll back off, making a last lap / last turn pass with two wheels in the grass,....

 

[Racerx]

How much is a legends car motor worth? Id actually like to buy a legends car roller sans motor to use as a racing sim cockpit within the next couple years if i can get a good deal, and maybe eventually put a motor in to actually run outdoors lol

They've been through 3 engines in the life of the series. Started out with xjr1200, then the xjr1250, now new cars have the fz09 motor. The 1250 and fz09 have engine seals that need to be in place for any sanctioned event. The 1200 could be unsealed and there was a few things you could do to up the HP. A newer serial number chassis couldn't run the 1200. Brand new fz09 are 5800. The 1200 and 1250 engines are around for less. But that's probably not a "fresh" engine. After a 25-35 race season they're a little long in the tooth, and a lot of guys will buy a new engine as opposed to rebuilding. The fz09 being liquid apparently can run longer before they need a rebuild.

Baby grands might run the same engine, not sure. Dwarf cars are what the legends series was modeled after, but they're less restrictive for what motor you can use. The thunder roadster look kind of cool, but the series is really niche as opposed to the legends and Bandoleros.

 

[Racerx]

If it was about just going fast, I might consider that. But what I loved was the competition: getting a better start and passing a couple of cars before T1, setting somebody up for a pass, defending against a pass, suckering a competitor into using up his brakes, using a slower car as a pick, not holding a tight line in order to force an outside car into the marbles, squeezing somebody close to the wall to see if they’ll back off, making a last lap / last turn pass with two wheels in the grass,....

Diamond a corner, or delay the entry to get a better run off... the off track tinkering/set up was just as fun. 14 yr old me learned a lot mechanically that I probably otherwise wouldn't have. One of my favorite games was looking for ways to remove rotating weight.

 

[Pinecone]

I didn't know that about the CSR with spares on hand, thats pretty cool!

To

I also leave my car at the CSR. I call and tell them which race to be at, I show up and my car is there, ready to run. During the weekend they do minor repairs, add fuel, change wheels if needed, check oil, check wheel torque, etc. At the end of the weekend, I say thanks and drive home. They load up the car and stuff and store things away until the next time.

It costs, but reduces the time needed to race. I have actually raced a weekend, left the track and went to the airport to catch an international flight, worked outside the country for a week and a half, flown home, went right to the track and raced another weekend.

 

[Pinecone]

If it was about just going fast, I might consider that. But what I loved was the competition: getting a better start and passing a couple of cars before T1, setting somebody up for a pass, defending against a pass, suckering a competitor into using up his brakes, using a slower car as a pick, not holding a tight line in order to force an outside car into the marbles, squeezing somebody close to the wall to see if they’ll back off, making a last lap / last turn pass with two wheels in the grass,....

Yeap, once you have raced, track days don't turn you on any more.

My race care is slower than my street/track car. But WAY more fun when racing side by side.

 

[robin ardoin]

^^^^ That is why jumping from a high performance formula car into a miata is still a blast. Although the Miata was grossly underpowered, so was everyone else I was competing against. Heck, we could have all been on Big Wheels and it would still have been exciting. Conversely, taking a Big Wheel to a track day.....well....

 

[Dave Arata]

Yeap, once you have raced, track days don't turn you on any more.

My race care is slower than my street/track car. But WAY more fun when racing side by side.

My trackday/autocross/family race car is pretty much a fully built AIX fox mustang. Very capable and very fast. With that said, I did buy an old FB RX-7 that was used in conference racing that I used to dip my toe into endurance racing. SOOOOO much fun! I really learned what it meant to drive a slow car fast after running the mustang at track days for years as the RX-7 taught me had to manage momentum and not be so dependent on horsepower. Door to door racing is absolutely where it is at!

 

[robin ardoin]

One event I competed in that was a freakin hoot was the 24hr du LeMons. You could only spend $500 on the car but had to put in a roll cage. The guys who built our car spent more much more money on the mandated safety gear than the POS RX-7 that we ran. Probably 2/3 of the cars did not make the 24hrs, including ours. The winners received a cash payout that was pretty good. I think it may have been near 2K...but it was all nickels and they were dumped in the trunk of the winning car. We had four drivers and a lot of camaraderie with the other teams.

edit- I see the event still has legs:

https://24hoursoflemons.com/

 

[StraightnLevel]

Now formula 600 looks FUN, except for when I saw "CVT".. that's worse than a tricycle gear airplane IMO lol. But I do see some have sequential shifters. I'll look into that more someday...

F600 gives you the option of a motorcycle engine with the bike's sequential gearbox, or a snowmobile engine with the CVT. Pick your poison.

Those cars are FAST for the money, all based on being extremely small and lightweight. If you're good at aero work, you can help them generate enough downforce to handle well above any street car's capabilities.

Open-wheel cars are where the handling is. If you want to experience a REAL race car, rent a FE (Formula E) for a weekend. They are provided through the SCCA CSRs, just like Spec Racer Ford, but they are a full-on winged formula car that pulls well over 2 gs in the corners. Not for the faint of heart......nor the light of wallet......

 

[robin ardoin]

I almost went the F-500 route (early 2000's) after deciding to move out of karts. The CVT was the only option then, IIRC, and that reminded me of all the clutch work/tuning on the 4 cycle karts plus there was little to no participation in the gulf coast region. Formula Mazda had a very well attended regional series in my area and the SCCA FM class was usually 20+ cars deep so I pulled the trigger. A couple of years in, SCCA Enterprises came out with the F-E but it never caught on in our area. Great entry level car after completing the Skippy school and running a race or three on the Barber series.

Those F-500/600 cars are more akin to 250cc Superkarts, just a little less HP/Wt ratio, but a bit safer with the roll hoop.

 

[Half Fast]

Open-wheel cars are where the handling is.

I did a Skippy school when I started and really loved the Formula Fords. I wanted to race formula cars, but having two kids and a mortgage at the time my budget would have limited me to FV. I did take a serious look at Vees, but realized that there were very small fields in my area (like a 2 or 3 car field at regional events) and the class wasn't well supported locally.

OTOH, I had several friends who were racing in Improved Touring and IT Mazdas were very well supported, with two nearby pro shops specializing in them. IT7 was introduced in my region and rapidly had 20-car fields, so that's where I went. It was a blast at the time, and now two decades later @Ted is still keeping my old racecar on the track.

Not for the faint of heart......

Therein lies the appeal.

nor the light of wallet......

And therein lies the problem.