quick question

Rudy

Rudy

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Rudy
Ok,
The other day one of my dad's friends wanted some pictures of the city of Pittsburg so me and my brother went up and took them. I have no intention of accepting money, but a question came up and I figured someone here would know. Could you take money for photographs taking from the plane. I understand you can't take money from a passenger, but i thought this might be different.
Me and my brother talked about it and we weren't for sure.
 
hah good question. while you're not taking any money, the mission is still for commercial use. i'm interested to hear the answer.
 
Rudy said:
Ok,
The other day one of my dad's friends wanted some pictures of the city of Pittsburg so me and my brother went up and took them. I have no intention of accepting money, but a question came up and I figured someone here would know. Could you take money for photographs taking from the plane. I understand you can't take money from a passenger, but i thought this might be different.
Me and my brother talked about it and we weren't for sure.
Click to expand...
If you do not have a commercial ticket, you can take as many photographs as you want while you are flying and, if one or two of them happen to have commercial value, you can sell them and pocket the money. Don't make a habit of this because it will attract attention to yourself. If not from the FSDO directly, from the Harley's Aerial Photography franchise just down the ramp a bit.

What you cannot do is fly for the purpose of taking photos and accept money for the flight, regardless if the photos are worth something or not. Unless, of course, you have a commercial certificate.

-Skip
 
Skip,

Your advice sounds odd...why would a pilot have to worry about the FSDO if it is OK to take the money?

Len

P.S. Note that a commercial license is indeed required to take aerial photographs for compensation (as well as some other hoops like commercial insurance for the aircraft). An aircraft and its pilot is not incidental to the taking of pictures while flying. The FAA has said it. AOPA has reiterated.

LL
 
This horse has been beaten a few times by this group. General consensus seems to be the duck test. Looks like a duck, acts like a duck...it's a commercial operation.

You don't take passengers on pipeline patrols or banner towing or such but those are commercial ops. Same concept. The airplane is essential (no plane = no aerial photos) to the business of taking aerial pictures, not incidental (flew to worksite instead of driving today) to the business thus it's commercial ops.

If someone offered to buy one or two pictures you took from the plane it probably wouldn't show up on anyone's radar and they probably wouldn't care. But if you started advertising aerial photography without a commercial ticket you might get to show up as guest of honor with an apple in your mouth at the next FSDO pig roasting.

IMHO: Being in the money trail for something that required you to be PIC in flight = commercial ticket required. And if you're going to put that kind of effort into a business, you might as well get the commercial ticket and not have to worry about it in the first place.

Search for a thread called 'Aerial Photography' on the AOPA webboard. Rev Ron has some good insight on the subject.
 
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I'm not up on the rules and regulations, nor do I have the answer to your question, but..

Did I understand you to say you found a "non-return addressed" envelope laying on the seat of your plane.. or was it the one that you received in the mail. It had how much money in it? Of course you don't know who sent it, so how can you return it?

Before any of you tell me you would know who it came from and why , let me ask you this. If you were to find a envelope laying on the seat of your plane, or, receive a non-return addressed envelope in the mail with a couple of brand new crisp $100 bills in it 3, 4, or 6 months from now..????

I won't even go on to end the above question and ask the obvious.. but I will answer it. Of course you wouldn't know who did it.

So Rudy..

How much was in that envelope? ;)

Dakota Duce

"May All Your Flights Be Of Good Weather!"
 
Ok thanks guys, i didn't know for sure, but it definitely seemed as if you should have a Commercial ticket. Well hopefully i will have one in the next couple of years and won't have to worry about this.

Oh yeah, and i really didn't take money for the pics, it is an excuse to fly and thats really all i need.
Thanks again,
 
Rudy,

To get an idea of just how far this can go, here's an example of something that happened locally.

Pilot, while talking on phone to Pilot's Friend, mentions that he's planning on going somewhere for a $100 burger or fun flight this Friday but hasn't decided where yet. Pilot's Friend says "Hey, I have a package I need to get to a client in Green Bay, can you take it?" Pilot says "Sure, I can take my fun flight to Green Bay and drop it off, but I can't take any money because I'm only a Private Pilot."

Pilot takes package to Pilot's Friend's Client, and gets no money from either party. Unbeknownst to Pilot, Pilot's Friend later decides to charge Client for package delivery. Pilot fries for conducting an illegal commercial operation even though he never advertised and never received any money.

Something to think about next time you think "Well, it's only one or two pictures, and it'll just be this once..."
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Rudy,

To get an idea of just how far this can go, here's an example of something that happened locally.

Pilot, while talking on phone to Pilot's Friend, mentions that he's planning on going somewhere for a $100 burger or fun flight this Friday but hasn't decided where yet. Pilot's Friend says "Hey, I have a package I need to get to a client in Green Bay, can you take it?" Pilot says "Sure, I can take my fun flight to Green Bay and drop it off, but I can't take any money because I'm only a Private Pilot."

Pilot takes package to Pilot's Friend's Client, and gets no money from either party. Unbeknownst to Pilot, Pilot's Friend later decides to charge Client for package delivery. Pilot fries for conducting an illegal commercial operation even though he never advertised and never received any money.

Something to think about next time you think "Well, it's only one or two pictures, and it'll just be this once..."
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Yeah, I knew it could get bad! I am not accepting money for anything. I never intended to and never will, i just thought of the question when we were up taking the pictures.
This is nothing i want to get in the middle of and end up losing my license over.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Pilot takes package to Pilot's Friend's Client, and gets no money from either party. Unbeknownst to Pilot, Pilot's Friend later decides to charge Client for package delivery. Pilot fries for conducting an illegal commercial operation even though he never advertised and never received any money.
Click to expand...

In the actual case the pilot didn't fry, but he got a good look at the boiling grease. The judge let him off specifically because he had no knowledge, nor would he have reason to have any knowledge of the money changing hands.
 
Len Lanetti said:
Skip,

Your advice sounds odd...why would a pilot have to worry about the FSDO if it is OK to take the money?

Len
Click to expand...
In this circumstance, I believe the FSDO would want to check out your story pretty thoroughly before they went home. Regardless of the outcome, I am not sure that would be a pleasant experience. I believe that a PP-ASEL could indeed sell a few photos that happened to be valuable, but if you sell N photos, as N increases, it begins to look more and more like an aerial photography business regardless of the facts.

The last thing I would want is the nice man from the FSDO to go away thinking I had put one over on him. Hell hath no fury like a bureaucrat scorned.

-Skip
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Pilot, while talking on phone to Pilot's Friend, mentions that he's planning on going somewhere for a $100 burger or fun flight this Friday but hasn't decided where yet. Pilot's Friend says "Hey, I have a package I need to get to a client in Green Bay, can you take it?" Pilot says "Sure, I can take my fun flight to Green Bay and drop it off, but I can't take any money because I'm only a Private Pilot."

Pilot takes package to Pilot's Friend's Client, and gets no money from either party. Unbeknownst to Pilot, Pilot's Friend later decides to charge Client for package delivery. Pilot fries for conducting an illegal commercial operation even though he never advertised and never received any money."
Click to expand...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

O.K. guys.. Think this one out.

As I said in my previous post and what I'm going to add now using the above as stated by "FlyingCheeseHead". The pilot has his pilot friend sign a legal type notice that says something to the effect of.. "under FAA rules and regulations 187.25, chapter 3, paragraph 7a, section 2, sub-section 4.138.. pilot so-and-so has NOT asked for, nor has been offered any compensation for yada, yada, yada, etc., etc." He, the pilot, then takes this legal type notice and goes to a notary and signs at the bottom swearing to the same.

Now it's a week before christmas and in the mail comes a non-return addressed envelope with some money inside. My question once again is.. "How does he know who sent it and for what?" I want to ask each one of you right now. In three months when Christmas rolls around you receive a piece of mail with a few bucks $$$ in it. There's NO return addrerss, nor is there any type of note. Are you going to be able to tell me who sent it.. and why?

I guess I've made my point.

Dakota Duce

"May All Your Flights Be Of Good Weather!"
 
Dakota Duce said:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

O.K. guys.. Think this one out.

As I said in my previous post and what I'm going to add now using the above as stated by "FlyingCheeseHead". The pilot has his pilot friend sign a legal type notice that says something to the effect of.. "under FAA rules and regulations 187.25, chapter 3, paragraph 7a, section 2, sub-section 4.138.. pilot so-and-so has NOT asked for, nor has been offered any compensation for yada, yada, yada, etc., etc." He, the pilot, then takes this legal type notice and goes to a notary and signs at the bottom swearing to the same.

Now it's a week before christmas and in the mail comes a non-return addressed envelope with some money inside. My question once again is.. "How does he know who sent it and for what?" I want to ask each one of you right now. In three months when Christmas rolls around you receive a piece of mail with a few bucks $$$ in it. There's NO return addrerss, nor is there any type of note. Are you going to be able to tell me who sent it.. and why?

I guess I've made my point.

Dakota Duce

"May All Your Flights Be Of Good Weather!"
Click to expand...

That seems like a slippery slope. Almost the same argument that I have friends make when I tell them that they should stop doing drugs because its illegal.

"Its only illegal if you get caught!" or "How is anyone going to know?"

That's not the point. The point is that the law has been put in place for a reason, and ours is not to find a way to skirt around the law.

My understanding, btw Rudy, is that if you took the pictures just for fun, and it turns out that you can sell them later, you can. HOWEVER, if you took the pictures knowing that you were going to be selling them, that is a commercial operation.

If the former happens too often, the FSDO would be concerned (assuming they found out) because it would then appear that you are flying to sell pictures, rather than flying to take pictures.

That's my understanding. Keep in mind that I am a very low time pilot, and still trying to figure out stuff myself.
 
You do have a point!!!

If you were to get an envelope and had already signed an agreement saying you didn't take money, then chances are you are in the clear, but it still isn't something that I personally would want to mess with.
 
NickDBrennan said:
My understanding, btw Rudy, is that if you took the pictures just for fun, and it turns out that you can sell them later, you can. HOWEVER, if you took the pictures knowing that you were going to be selling them, that is a commercial operation.

If the former happens too often, the FSDO would be concerned (assuming they found out) because it would then appear that you are flying to sell pictures, rather than flying to take pictures.

That's my understanding.
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Nick, I think you have it!
NickDBrennan said:
Keep in mind that I am a very low time pilot, and still trying to figure out stuff myself.
Click to expand...
Reality check: High time pilots get confused in the FAR Maze, too. -Skip
 
Rudy said:
Ok thanks guys, i didn't know for sure, but it definitely seemed as if you should have a Commercial ticket. Well hopefully i will have one in the next couple of years and won't have to worry about this.
Click to expand...

The commercial certificate (and current class II medical) will keep you out of trouble with the FAA, but chances are your insurance policy excludes commercial ops of any sort, although some allow airborne photography if it's done above 1000 AGL.
 
Skip Miller said:
If you do not have a commercial ticket, you can take as many photographs as you want while you are flying and, if one or two of them happen to have commercial value, you can sell them and pocket the money. Don't make a habit of this because it will attract attention to yourself. If not from the FSDO directly, from the Harley's Aerial Photography franchise just down the ramp a bit.
Click to expand...

Actually, I've never been DRR (downward of Rudy's Ramp). Skip will recognize the attached landmark of these parts, and for those who don't -- Bowdoin College campus area, Cole's Tower[known as Senior Center], and Farley Field House[athletic facility funded greatly by William Farley, alumnus and industrialist], and the residential area West of Maine Street, Brunswick.

Oh, taken my me, from my plane, piloted by a commercial-rated pilot who was not supplying a plane but was flying me as he would any other passenger who might want to take photos.

HR

Rats! I'll have to come back with the photo which is - presently - a 55mb file.
Off to downsize it.

OK, back; let's see what we have:
 
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I think the key is intent - call it the Reasonable Man test - would a reasonable man think you are trying to dodge the system ?

Buddy : Hey rudy, can you go take some pictures of my house ?
Rudy : Sure Buddy.
<zoom zoom click click zoom zoom>
Rudy : Here ya go - pictures !
Buddy : Cool - here's some cash

Wah Wah Ooops. You flew with the intent of taking the pictures, you are essentially a charter (The pictures were the reason for the flight), and certainly commercial, especially when you accept the money.

However :

Rudy : Hey buddy, See these pictures I took yesterday on the way to breakfast ?
Buddy : Hey Look ! Thats my house ?
Rudy : Really ? I didn't know that ! Nice pool !
Buddy : Can I have it ? - here's $10 for the ink and paper and stuff
Rudy : Well cool - can't accept the money tho - only cost me $100 to go to the breakfast anyway.
Buddy : Well, I insist - in fact, here's $50 to cover half your flight expenses.
Rudy : Well, next time we go to Podunk for breakfast, I'll let you know and you can come along and bring your camera :)

Still commercial ? Maybe, but it was never the intent. The FAA may look on it as Goodwill, or even compensation, but if I give a confused student the right frequency while flying in another plane, I get goodwill...doesn't mean I need a CFI ticket. If Buddy had been in the plane at the time and taken the pictures, and paid half the expenses for the original breakfast trip, noone would even bat an eyelid. The purpose of the flight was always BREAKFAST - the photos were incidental.

Obviously, if you 'go to breakfast' every day and have twenty five 'buddy's whose houses you knew were on the way....

Rudy said:
The other day one of my dad's friends wanted some pictures of the city of Pittsburg so me and my brother went up and took them.
Click to expand...

In this case, I think you are a whole lot closer to the first example than the second. The reason you went flying was to take the pictures. Thats a commercial endeavour (whether you get paid or not).
 
NickDBrennan said:
My understanding, btw Rudy, is that if you took the pictures just for fun, and it turns out that you can sell them later, you can. HOWEVER, if you took the pictures knowing that you were going to be selling them, that is a commercial operation.
Click to expand...

Personally I don't see the difference.

A person, a private pilot PIC, flies the plane...pictures are taken from the plane while in the air...photographs are later exchanged for money. How is that not considered compensation for flying?

I really didn't mean to sell the pictures!!??

Ah, yes Yossarian, but you did sell the pictures.

Len
 
Skip Miller said:
Izzat a recent picture, Harley? Have your leaves really turned that much already?
Click to expand...

October 19, 2003. Leaves haven't turned, this year, but the wind is just howling today.

HR
 
OK, so you take a photographer, who is also a friend, flying. You pay all the expenses. He takes lots of pictures, and sells them, but he pockets all the cash for the sale, and you don't get any. Commercial or not?

Just as a warning, just because you have your commercial certificate doesn't NECESSARILY mean you can accept compensation. Some types of commercial operations also require you to have an approved aircraft and operations certificate and an approved maintenance schedule for that aircraft. In other words, it's not just the pilot that gets caught up in the regs for commercial flying, but the aircraft as well.

That's why, even though I have my CFII, I don't do instruction in my own airplane. My airplane is maintained according to a "personal operations" schedule (there isn't such a thing, but I'm calling it that to contrast it with the other kind of flying). In other words, I don't do, nor do I have to do, 100-hour inspections. If I'm going to instruct, I have to add those inspections. If I'm going to fly people somewhere (unless the flying is incidental to the operation--more on that later), I have to add a bunch of other stuff. Both "flight-school" type ops and air-taxi type ops require elevated maintenance considerations, not to mention way more expensive insurance. I've never been 100% clear on what types of flights for which you can receive compensation also require additional consideration for the equipment, but then again, is anyone 100% clear on any of the regs (plus, I have no need to know, so I haven't bothered to find out).

Now, on the "incidental" bit. The example I'm most familiar with is the case of outfitters in Alaska who provide boats, camping gear, etc., for hunting and camping trips. They are outfitters, not air-taxi operators, and the flying is incidental because that's the only way they can get their outfitted clients to the places they need to go. When I first ran into this, I was surprised that they were Part 91 operators, not Part 135 operators. (I am also assuming that this hasn't changed in the last 15 years.)

I suspect they still have to have commercial pilot certificates (although I'm not positive of that, since it's Part 91); I don't know of any who don't, but that might not have anything to do with their ops.

I'm not sitting here with the regs in front of me, so I don't want to take this any further. Just tossing out some info that I've found interesting over the years.

Judy
 
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judypilot said:
OK, so you take a photographer, who is also a friend, flying. You pay all the expenses. He takes lots of pictures, and sells them, but he pockets all the cash for the sale, and you don't get any. Commercial or not?
Click to expand...
Sounds like an "aerial work operation" as defined in 14 CFR 119.1 to me. In any event, your insurance is probably void for the flight even if the FAR's weren't broken.
 
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