Quick back to back approaches…..Normal?

[Tools]

1. Timing an ILS is dumb. In ALL respects. It’s not a part of the approach, period. Training to something not required OR USEFUL is negative training.

2. Using extra work like that as a training stressor IS REALLY BAD.

3. Telling you, you gotta be faster IS REALLY BAD. You NEVER have to be faster, you GOTTA be accurate. PERFECTLY accurate. Your life depends on it….

So…..

1. He is right in that these last minute and/or rapid fire stuff thrown at you DOES HAPPEN. It will happen. Very realistic.

2. Learn to make time so that you can deal with it ACCURATELY. iPad then box is probably the right order, it’s where you get your approach plate. Should not be flying approaches without an approach plate.

3. If ATC won’t give you an initial heading, ask for an assigned heading until ya find it. He’s happy, you have time, everyone is safe. This attitude of ya gotta be lightning fast IS UNSAFE.

 

[WDD]

Great post / well said.

 

[GaryR]

I’ve met all my requirements for IFR training. I fly the local approaches quite well down to MDA/DH. Radios I have no issues with at all. In fact I like talking on the radio. I have one particular area I’m messing up on and starting to focus on to correct: I forget to start the timer on ILS and VOR at FAF. We use Garmin 650 and 430 (in different tail numbers), WAAS enabled. Instructor insist I use the timer even though the GPS will point out the MAP. I think the GPS is a heck of a lot more accurate than my timer.

Next issue I’m having is last minute changes…

Example one, and the worst one (super unrealistic) I’ve experienced:
Plan on the ground is to fly KSUA to KVRB to KFPR then to KSUA with an approach at each. We start up engine and I program the flight plan in the 430. Instructor even gave me the first approach at KVRB which I also loaded up. I do the same in foreflight.
10 miles from KFPR, instructor calls approach requesting FF. Then requests an approach at KFPR landing east. Controller tells him they are landing west. So he stumbles a bit and requests a RNAV 28L. Approach gives us a code, finds us and immediately tells us to turn LEFT direct JUDU. Remember, we planned on KVRB. I don’t know where JUDU is. I start to load it up on iPad to get head toward JUDU. Instructor says. Get off your iPad and load it in the 430 first. So I comply but still no change in heading since I don’t know where JUDU is as I’m still loading up the approach. He takes controls and says, you need to be faster, they want us direct JUDU. I fired back at instructor and said, yeah this is VERY unrealistic. In fact, I can ask the controller for a vector to the JUDU while we load up the unrealistic change in flight plan. He stayed quiet. He says I need to be prepared for last minute changes because it happens “all the time”.
I don’t see how an entire flight plan will change without the pilot knowing and getting caught off guard.

We spoke about this on debrief and admitted that he should have given me a heads up.

Example 2:
We do 3 approaches back to back. With almost no time between the first and second to fully setup. Usually it’s with the same airport and it’s a different plate. So needs a full brief and if it goes from an RNAV to a ILS, where there a couple extra steps.

This one can be doable if again the entry gave ample time to setup. In reality, I would ask for a delay vectors to load up approach. When the instructor is “the controller” seems when I barely have enough time to setup. If we used the towered facilities nearby and getting FF for the approaches, it goes smooth since they sequence us in usually at the end of the line.

Instructor says we need to do 3 approaches within a 2 hour flight to prepare for the check ride.

Are these normal tactics to IFR training?

Just like playing sports, in time the "game will slow down". Yes, I have had ATC totally change my flight plan enroute. If you are unsure of the intersection given by ATC, simply ask for a quick heading while you look it up and enter it in the system. If you are uncertain how it is spelled, be sure to ask for a phonetic spelling. Since my Ipad with Garmin Pilot and Garmin equipment are connected, in most situations it is mox nix as to where I make the flight plan change - it will be sent to the other unit right away.

 

[Steamflyer]

1) always load an IAF/IF even if you know you are getting VTF. Only go to VTF when vectored.

2) only an opinion, but for rapid changes the 650 interface is much easier with no more than 2 plies deep. It also knows airways unlike the 430.

 

[Arnold]

1. Timing an ILS is dumb. In ALL respects. It’s not a part of the approach, period. Training to something not required OR USEFUL is negative training.

2. Using extra work like that as a training stressor IS REALLY BAD.

3. Telling you, you gotta be faster IS REALLY BAD. You NEVER have to be faster, you GOTTA be accurate. PERFECTLY accurate. Your life depends on it….

So…..

1. He is right in that these last minute and/or rapid fire stuff thrown at you DOES HAPPEN. It will happen. Very realistic.

2. Learn to make time so that you can deal with it ACCURATELY. iPad then box is probably the right order, it’s where you get your approach plate. Should not be flying approaches without an approach plate.

3. If ATC won’t give you an initial heading, ask for an assigned heading until ya find it. He’s happy, you have time, everyone is safe. This attitude of ya gotta be lightning fast IS UNSAFE.

Single pilot IFR is the hardest flying any aviator will do.

Mostly agree with what has been said in this thread. I strongly urge people - no single pilot IFR without an autopilot or a second set of trained hands.

I would always program the box first. EFB is for plates and SA. unless the EFB is how you program the box. Even single pilot I brief the approach. As I brief it I confirm the box is
properly set up. Can't do that if I set the box up second.

Speaking of SA, if the EFB dies do you know where you are?

Most important, and stated throughout this thread: DO NOT RUSH! The mission is to arrive alive, not make a controller happy.

ATC provides a service to you. No you cannot disregard what they say, but they cannot force you to do anything you deem unsafe and rushing is unsafe (except during a fire).
Remember the furthest the controller has to fall is 2' out of his chair. He is not flying the plane (this was mentioned earlier) you are.
They know this. ATC always has a plan B. You should too. Requesting delay vectors is an acceptable plan B. So is a missed approach.

"I need delay vectors so I can set up the box." "I need delay vectors to run a checklist." "I need delay vectors because my pax is puking."
or simply "I'm not ready for the approach." is all you need to say. That said, if you are in a non radar environment then your
out is a fix and a hold - and you probably should have thought this through ahead of time.

Timing an ILS not pointless but it is also not necessary and not as helpful as some would like to think. Timing is based on ground speed. Its accuracy is contingent upon many factors.
When was the button pushed? Was it exactly at the FAF? A few seconds before? A few seconds after? Was your ground speed constant? The only way it is constant is if your
airspeed never varies AND the winds aloft and surface winds are identical and never vary. Normally error is expected.

All that said, there are many reasons to abandon an ILS prior to the published MAP (which is DA on the GS). The number one is an un-stabilized approach not GS failure.
I've been flying instruments since 1979 and after about 9000 hours in the system I've never had a GS fail inside the FAF. This is flying 1000s of ILS approaches as a regional
pilot.

Plus, this issue is not limited to ILS approaches. Do you have a plan B if you loose WAAS inside the FAF while executing an LPV approach? Do you know how to tell the box to change the
approach from an SBAS approach to a BARO approach? From LPV to LNAV/VNAV or LNAV only. To me these, and many other things are much more important than timing inside the FAF
unless . . . a raw data non precision approach without GPS. Ah, the good old days.

What if you are flying the day war is declared and the GPS is no longer available? The FAA back up plan is VOR and ILS.

My last thoughts . . . even if you never plan to fly IFR, if you have the ticket be prepared to use it. Fly a sim (even a modern desktop sim) using a representative aircraft at lest 2 hours per month.
Don't worry about logging it. Just fly it.