Questions from student pilot about flying patterns, straight in, and separation

[LongRoadBob]

Inspired by questions that came up for me after reading the straight in landing thread. I'm not experienced, and wanted to know more about real world practices. Technical details.

Feel free to answer any or all questions. I just numbered the questions to make it easier to reply to selected ones if you want.

Let me just say, in the few flights I've had (11) with some different instructors, at our untowered airport we have only done a pattern on return from practice 2 times, and both times were because the wind was not in the prevailing direction but shifted so we were using runway 12 instead of 31.

I think maybe my airport where I am learning is a bit of a strange situation maybe. Maybe because of noise abatement (lots of neighbors) we are not allowed to do TNG's here, have to fly to another airfield to practice those. Also on the east of the airfield, not far away, is a nuclear storage or some kind of facility that has restricted airspace over it. Further, we tend to use the practice areas south of the airfield, where a large lake bounds the airfield from the south.

So the "norm" here as far as I can tell is straight in approach over patterns. When entering the runway for takeoff, that is where we are looking hardest (we of course look every direction). So I am not familiar yet with "normal" pattern flying.

1) Separation in the pattern: What is the most crowded, nearest or least separation you've experienced in a pattern? What is the "normal" in feet?
In other words, how crowded is it at a normal busy airport, and how crowded can it get before it is unsafe?

2) controlling separation: I've been feeling dumb trying to figure out about how a pilot controls separation and right of way. So far have had slow flight, etc. practice but thinking of being in a pattern and the plane ahead is slower, to slow down I think I could (once anyway) use flaps, but if I change throttle alone, would lose altitude, or if I change pitch for slower airspeed I "zoom" up out of the desired pattern altitude. I'm probably missing something really obvious with this.
Main point, I'm trying to figure out how you adjust to the other traffic. Sort of like cars do when traffic slows down, keeping distance (separation) but matching the other vehicle or even slowing down less than it.

3) right of way in the pattern: I'm thinking too that patterns are like being in a roundabout, driving. Even with right of way, those in the roundabout (pattern) have right of way? So a plane joining from a 45 deg. on the downwind would have to somehow (how?) adjust where he breaks into the pattern to have the right separation?

4) full pattern vs. partial: Before I started flight lessons, just read a little, I thought that one joined the pattern on the upwind side, then crosswind, then downwind, base and final. I'm getting the idea from here and elsewhere that the norm is just entering on the downwind side. Different takes on if one crosses midfield at +500' above pattern altitude, to come back to join the downwind leg. Is that right?

Sorry , its a lot. Just keep trying to picture coming in on a 45 Deg. to join the downwind, and seeing a plane in the pattern to my left. How or if I can judge well enough the distance, (again using driving, like merging onto a highway, requires some spacial/speed judgment) and what to do if you find it wasn't enough? Do a bank and come back in again?

 

[NoBShere]

I am a relatively low time pilot, that coupled with you only had a few flights, ask your instructor these questions, regardless of how many responses you get here. The responses may help you ask more meaningful questions. but, here's my comments:

1. it can get crowded and I have left an airport or diverted because of how crowded an uncontrolled airport got. I think I have been on downwind with two other aircraft before. I also had an aircraft ahead of me on downwind at an uncontrolled field (we were all talking) decide that vrb 5 kt wind favored the opposite runway and announce he was doing a 180 to switch runways with me directly behind him at a safe distance but, I was annoyed.

2. you can slow down as you mentioned, practice it when you are in the pattern when no else is around or practice at away from field. Something my instructor did with me. You can also do a 360, s turns. widen your pattern a little, extend downwind, etc. there are some rules of thumb to help like don't turn base until abeam aircraft ahead of you on final. Also have to consider aircraft, i.e. if following a citabria and your in a 182 or 172RG, you're gonna catch him.

3. i think you have the right idea, just watch out for assumptions. not everyone follows the same rules at uncontrolled fields, especially the guy not using a radio. work together, you might be able to adjust slightly to make room for someone by extending on runway heading before turning crosswind, assumes a few things though.

4. normally join on downwind. when crossing midfield, normally not considered "in the pattern" at that point.

I'd bet your instructor will spend some time discussing and practicing all of this. What I have posted is really just scratching the surface. And good luck with your training.

 

[flyingron]

1. The closest was having someone drop into the pattern in front of me close enough to see the stitching in the wing fabric. Not a normal situation. As for following distance, maintain enough to be safe. I typically like 1/4 mile because that means in a normal close pattern you're turning base when they are turning final, they are touching down as you turn final. Of course, if you need more room, slow down. If it gets too unwieldy, carefully look to make sure it is safe and exit the pattern and start over.

2. Learn to operate at different airspeeds while maintaining level flight. Trim helps. A lot of people in the very light trainers ignore the trim wheel because it's too easy to just throw the plane where you want it, but it will help in this situation.

3. There is no concept of "right of way" of those already in the pattern, but it makes sense that when joining the pattern you should plan on doing so not to disrupt things. As with anything else, converging at the same altitude gives priority to the one on the right (which means the joining aircraft in left traffic). Overtaking traffic, must also yield. However, it's better to think of it as a cooperative rather than an assertion of rights.

4. At this stage, I recommend you always do the 45 to downwind entry (either crossing overhead or planning ahead and maneuvering to the entry point outside of the traffic pattern area). Expect others to do entries in other ways however. Also be prepared to make such entries if you're flying into a towered field. Controllers may ask you to enter on base or crossfield or whatever.

 

[Cooter]

I don't have time to answer all but on the issue of separation, you primarily build it in the turns. Once you are established on the same segment, there isn't a lot you can do besides slow down or make small turns to delay your directional travel. So the easiest thing to do is delay your turn to put yourself on the segment they are on. But keep in mind, any delays you make may be hosing the guy behind you so the best time to build interval is on the timing of your crosswind turn. That way you're not messing with the altitudes on the base and final legs.

 

[keen9]

1) There isn't really a normal. If you'd like to see how minimal is possible, find some youtube videos from Oshkosh 2016 Sunday arrivals (these are sort of controlled!). You want to be far enough behind to allow the other airplane to be out of the way when you are ready to land. That judgement will come with experience.

2) Once you are as slow as possible, S-turns first, 360 if no one is immediately behind, and then departing the pattern and trying again is always an option. As mentioned, you can also extend the crosswind or downwind legs of the pattern.

3) I won't get into a regulations discussion on the internet, but it is certainly rude to bust into the pattern and expect those already in the pattern to make space. Use the same techniques as question 2 to time your entry where spacing with other aircraft works.

 

[Palmpilot]

...if I change throttle alone, would lose altitude, or if I change pitch for slower airspeed I "zoom" up out of the desired pattern altitude....

If you want to change airspeed while maintaining altitude, you have to change both power and pitch.

3) right of way in the pattern: I'm thinking too that patterns are like being in a roundabout, driving. Even with right of way, those in the roundabout (pattern) have right of way? So a plane joining from a 45 deg. on the downwind would have to somehow (how?) adjust where he breaks into the pattern to have the right separation?

4) full pattern vs. partial: Before I started flight lessons, just read a little, I thought that one joined the pattern on the upwind side, then crosswind, then downwind, base and final. I'm getting the idea from here and elsewhere that the norm is just entering on the downwind side. Different takes on if one crosses midfield at +500' above pattern altitude, to come back to join the downwind leg. Is that right??

I wouldn't assume that pilots here know much about the rules or normal practices in Norway. For one thing, there are many pilots here who never fly internationally, and U.S. rules differ from ICAO rules in some ways.

 

[flyingron]

And ICAO rules don't necessarily mean the right way in every country. Canada has its own quirks, as does the UK, and Australia, and probably others...

 

[mtuomi]

Sounds like you are training in Kjeller?

The rule about traffic patterns in Norway (and pretty much the rest of Europe) is SERA.3225: Local AIP has a list of differences from ICAO rules, so if there's a requirement for a pattern, it should be in the AIP.

"
An aircraft operated on or in the vicinity of an aerodrome shall:
(a)
observe other aerodrome traffic for the purpose of avoiding collision;
(b)
conform with or avoid the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft in operation;
(c)
except for balloons, make all turns to the left, when approaching for a landing and after taking off, unless otherwise indicated, or instructed by ATC;
(d)
except for balloons, land and take off into the wind unless safety, the runway configuration, or air traffic considerations determine that a different direction is preferable.
"

There is no requirement to fly a pattern, It's often good airmanship though.

 

[LongRoadBob]

Sounds like you are training in Kjeller?

The rule about traffic patterns in Norway (and pretty much the rest of Europe) is SERA.3225: Local AIP has a list of differences from ICAO rules, so if there's a requirement for a pattern, it should be in the AIP.

"
An aircraft operated on or in the vicinity of an aerodrome shall:
(a)
observe other aerodrome traffic for the purpose of avoiding collision;
(b)
conform with or avoid the pattern of traffic formed by other aircraft in operation;
(c)
except for balloons, make all turns to the left, when approaching for a landing and after taking off, unless otherwise indicated, or instructed by ATC;
(d)
except for balloons, land and take off into the wind unless safety, the runway configuration, or air traffic considerations determine that a different direction is preferable.
"

There is no requirement to fly a pattern, It's often good airmanship though.

Correct, it is Kjeller. It's just my observations from what I've seen there. Of course, when I pass my exam and am flying again I will ask my CFI all of this. Like I say, it may be noise abatement issues. Landing straight in (prevailing wind usually means that runway is the active) on 31 avoids extra flying nearer to the housing to the west of the airport. It's just a guess though.

I'm most curious about separation and adjusting airspeed in the pattern,many we surely will get to that.

 

[champ driver]

There will be differences in patterns at many airports for many reasons. Maybe there's a noise abatement problem along one side, a nuke plant or terrain causing left, right, or straight in patterns. Not all airports are the same, you have to adjust to those differences, that's called being a pilot.
Enter the pattern the way that causes the least amount of fuss and muss for everyone else and is also safe for you and others.

1. I learned to fly in the 80's when the local field had 3 large flight schools and many days had 4,5,6 planes in the pattern doing T&G's. Today it's nothing like that anymore.
There's no real definition of unsafe in the pattern until you feel it's unsafe, or something you know isn't going to work, then it may be time to leave and come back later.

2. Separation is controlled by spacing, and sometimes by the size of the pattern. Faster planes like turbines fly a higher and wider pattern. In my Champ I fly a tighter pattern, I don't want to be in front of a Baron, and I know I won't catch up to anyone else, not even a Cessna 150. Many times I've turned a base while the plane on final is still farther out than me, I know I won't overtake him and I'm trying to keep the pattern from getting stretched out too far.
Knowing how much separation you need comes from experience and judgment, you will get better at it as your training progresses.

From your explanation it sounds like you need more practice holding altitude while changing airspeeds. In the practice area, hold an altitude, and then slow 10 kts by reducing power all the while holding that altitude, you'll find that you need to trim out the control pressure change as you slow to that new AS. Do it again, with another 10 kts reduction, same thing, holding alt and trimming off the pressure. Do that with 3 or 4 speed changes, using flaps too, while holding altitude and maintaining a heading too of course. The exercise is not so much an exact 10 kt reduction, it could be 10,15, or a 20 kt reduction, as it is reducing power a certain amount to slow down all the while maintaining an altitude and heading.

There are other ways to increase or decrease separation in the pattern, if I know there's someone behind me that I know is faster, I can delay reducing power and carb heat. There have been times in my Champ that I've had near cruise power until short final, then it's carb heat, reduce power and kick it sideways to bleed the speed, touchdown and make the first turnoff.
S turns on final are sometimes used, as long as you're comfortable with them and there is no parallel runway. I have been asked to a 360 on the downwind by the tower, I wouldn't recommend it at uncontrolled fields though.

A lot of this knowledge will come with increased experience, you're just beginning. Judgment comes with using your knowledge and skills to determine whether the situation is safe for you and what you're going to do about it.

 

[murphey]

Spacing....think of time. If you're going 60 kts, then 30 seconds you'll travel 1/2 nm. Need 1/4 nm spacing? the use 15 seconds. Next time you go out to practice, look at points on the ground, such as a road, house, whatever, then 15 seconds later, see how far you are from that point. After a while you can estimate short distances at various speeds.

On final to the runway, note your speed and some point below you. When you get to the runway, note the time. Knowing your speed, you'll know the distance.

 

[LongRoadBob]

Thanks guys! Now I'm getting somewhere!

Seriously, I very much appreciate the detail you have all gone into, to explain. I am getting a better picture and a better idea of the flow of it, options, etc.
As I said, I definitely will be checking with my CFI soon as I start flying but it is good to think about already now.

 

[denverpilot]

I'm most curious about separation and adjusting airspeed in the pattern,many we surely will get to that.

You will. Don't worry.

At first most instructors will just help you out with it if something "isn't going to work" and they'll otherwise try to have you just work on flying a consistent pattern, which is plenty to keep track of when you're new at it. Those moments are a good time to be paying attention to what you're seeing and what they're doing to fix it.

Remember they're acting as your "safety net" at first so you can focus on consistency.

If they have to, as one example, extend an upwind leg to let the preceding aircraft get further ahead so there's time for them to land and clear off of the runway ahead of you, you'll be able to watch and see how long they need to extend to make it all work out.

They'll almost always say something to you anyway, because the extension will change your plan for your approach...

"So, we are an extra mile out here than usual... we should plan to fly level back to our usual visual decent point... ok good, now you can set your power setting for the descent and start down here, like usual... and there you see the other airplane is just now rolling out and should be off the runway by the time we get there..."

They're teaching how to correct for the change you had to make to get the distance between you and the preceding airplane.

As you get better at it, they'll let you make the correction. Let's say you still end up too close and the other airplane is just touching down and you mis-judged and you're too close... they'll probably say, "This doesn't look like it's going to work to me? How about you? What do we do if the runway isn't clear? Ahhh... nicely done, you executed a go-around. Okay full power now and pitch the nose up to your usual climb angle with the horizon... And let's clean up the airplane as long as we are now in a stable climb. Retract flaps and monitor your airspeed."

Etc etc etc. They'll coach you through it. No worries.