Question to all you aerobatic pilots

[ScottM]

What exactly do you all expect from other non-aerobat pilot when you turn on, via NOTAM, an aerobatics box. The airport I am now at has a box just to the north of the field and with the nicer weather it is going to be on more and more often as a group of people are getting ready to compete. I have seen in our newsletters where the box is but never what to do when it is active. I want to be a good co-user of the airport with the other planes and since this box is very near the traffic pattern I don't want to iratate my fellow aviators.

So what are your expections?

 

[gismo]

What exactly do you all expect from other non-aerobat pilot when you turn on, via NOTAM, an aerobatics box. The airport I am now at has a box just to the north of the field and with the nicer weather it is going to be on more and more often as a group of people are getting ready to compete. I have seen in our newsletters where the box is but never what to do when it is active. I want to be a good co-user of the airport with the other planes and since this box is very near the traffic pattern I don't want to iratate my fellow aviators.

So what are your expections?

That other pilots would avoid that airspace like the plague when there's someone in it performing acro, out of a sense of self preservation at the least. Sometimes there is someone on the ground watching for other aircraft coming into the box but not always IME. IIRC the acro planes don't really have any "right of way" etc. but truth be told it's darn difficult to watch for and spot other airplanes while attempting to learn or perfect a routine.

 

[Areeda]

The only box I am registered to use has an air-to-air frequency, I'd also ask anyone coming close to the box to use it to [accurately] announce their position.

Joe

 

[fgcason]

Not aerobatic here but still...

I treat active (or unknown status) aerobatic boxes just like hot MOA's. Their speeds are closer to mine but the aggressive maneuvering and vertical components are not conductive to my continued self preservation. I don't think they technically have right of way (I could be wrong on that) but they're too busy doing their thing to actively watch out for others adequately. Right of way is a nice general rule but in the air it's really about not getting bumped into no matter what.

I try to contact them via air to air or designated frequency to let them know I'm in the area. If they're busy or not responding, I definitely go around the box with a sensible buffer, not through or under. They wanted to go play, they advised everyone of their intentions and whereabouts, it's their sandbox, I just let them have at it.


In your situation with a known nearby box I would try to get in contact with the aerobatic pilots that fly there and see what they say. A little discussion about any potential concerns may improve overall safety locally.

 

[gibbons]

What a great question!! Thanks for asking it.

I expect (hope) they'll have the good sense to go around it - it's not usually very big - and to keep a sharp eye out for any aerobatic activity in AND AROUND the box. (Some of us aren't good enough to always stay in the area like we're supposed to.) That includes the upper and lower bounds of the aerobatic area. I, for example, start inverted spin demonstrations at around 10,000' AGL. Lots of folks work right down on the deck. Going over or under the area might not be the best choice. The best option for a pilot in transit is to go around and monitor whatever frequency applies for the airspace in question.

[begin ramble]
It's not that the aerobatic aircraft have the right-of-way, we sure don't, and it's not that the aerobatic pilot's see-and-avoid responsibilities are diminished in any way. But the reality is that it's very difficult for us to see traffic when we're working in "the box."

Keep in mind too that most aerobatic airplanes are very small and agile. Just because you have adequate separation one second doesn't mean you will the next. I gain about 1,500' in a hammerhead. It takes me approximately six seconds from pull to pivot at the top. That's a rate of climb of about 15,000 FPM. We've all seen pilots make 160kt 180 degree turns in less than a 1,000' radius. Often maneuvers involve pushing around a turn, or a rolling while turning. Many of us have periods of gray outs and poor vision at high g's. Add to that the fact that the acro pilot is pretty focused on what she is doing and see-and-avoid might not be #1 on the list of things to do. In other words, the odds of me seeing you come into the box when I'm flying a routine are just about zero.

The way I try to counter that is to clear the area before I start a sequence. But during a four minute sequence another airplane can easily travel 8 to 12 NM, meaning the airplane sharing the box with me at the end of the sequence was probably not seen when I cleared the area.

If I run into you, we will share the blame for our failure to see-and-avoid. But I have a parachute and you don't, so I'm the only one who will be around for the FAA to punish.
[/end ramble]

Chip

 

[EdFred]

And how does one get hold of these NOTAMs considering that the last time I asked for NOTAMs from FSS - at the field I was going to no less! - I was not given them? The computer isn't going to help me, because there are times I fly out of fields with no internet access.

 

[Diana]

And how does one get hold of these NOTAMs considering that the last time I asked for NOTAMs from FSS - at the field I was going to no less! - I was not given them?

When I have NOTAMS issued for my aerobatic practice area (a three mile radius of the farm), our FSS is very good about telling pilots about the NOTAMs, over the phone and in the air. I also contact KC Center and they give me a block of airspace and re-route traffic they are in contact with. I monitor the local airport frequency, too and give frequent reports in the blind about my location and activity.

 

[ScottM]

And how does one get hold of these NOTAMs considering that the last time I asked for NOTAMs from FSS - at the field I was going to no less! - I was not given them? The computer isn't going to help me, because there are times I fly out of fields with no internet access.

I have gotten the NOTAM in briefings. I read about your problem which was, if I remember correctly, published NOTAMs. When published unless you ask specifically for the published NOTAMs you don't get 'em. This aerobatic box NOTAM gets turned on for a few hours mayber a few times a week. FSS has been pretty good about notify pilots and the FBO has also come on the CTAF when planes announce they are inbound.

Not a perfect system.

 

[B2Soar]

I gain about 1,500' in a hammerhead. It takes me approximately six seconds from pull to pivot at the top. That's a rate of climb of about 15,000 FPM.

Chip[/quote]


What the heck do you fly Chip? I want one of those!

 

[B2Soar]

Would a Duats briefing show an active notamed aerobatic box? By GPS coordinates? By text? Overlaid on a chart?

 

[Diana]

What the heck do you fly Chip? I want one of those!

He used to fly an Extra.

Would a Duats briefing show an active notamed aerobatic box? By GPS coordinates? By text? Overlaid on a chart?

Here is one of my old NOTAMS for the farm:

08/275 - AIRABATIC AREA 1500B6000 3 NMR 5SSE LLU/08MO AVOIDANCE ADZD 22 AUG 13:00 2007 UNTIL 22 AUG 17:00 2007

They spelled aerobatic wrong.

It says that there is an aerobatic area from 1500' up to 6000' and it's an area with a radius of 3 nautical miles that is 5 miles south/southeast of Lamar, MO, over the airport 08MO. I always give them the times. When people are passing over this area or flying into Lamar, then FSS will give them this NOTAM. And when people are on Flight Following or an IFR flight plan, then KC center will let them know, and sometimes vector them around if they are below 6,000'.

 

[vontresc]

He used to fly an Extra.



Here is one of my old NOTAMS for the farm:

08/275 - AIRABATIC AREA 1500B6000 3 NMR 5SSE LLU/08MO AVOIDANCE ADZD 22 AUG 13:00 2007 UNTIL 22 AUG 17:00 2007

They spelled aerobatic wrong.

How much would you wager that this box was requested by someone with a Citabria though.