Question regarding wiring and panel work

[DaleB]

Hi guys...

I know I can do my own engine and mechanical work, as long as it's under the supervision of an A&P -- supervision meaning to the degree that he's OK with signing off on it.

Does that also apply to things like instrument panel wiring, installing avionics bits and pieces, etc? Let's take a hypothetical case where I find a plane I really like and fits my needs, but the panel is lacking and needs work (1960s radios, oddball arrangement, beat to hell, etc). I want to pull the panel, strip & refinish, clean up the wiring and install some used but more up to date radios, maybe LED lighting, etc. Can I do that myself, with an avionics tech checking and signing off?

I'm shopping around... I see some good candidate airplanes, but some have panels that I can only describe as pathetic. And I'll limit the question to only factory built, certificated aircraft -- E/AB planes are not a consideration for me. I'm perfectly capable of doing the work, just need to know if I can legally do it.

 

[Tom-D]

Hi guys...

I know I can do my own engine and mechanical work, as long as it's under the supervision of an A&P -- supervision meaning to the degree that he's OK with signing off on it.

Does that also apply to things like instrument panel wiring, installing avionics bits and pieces, etc? Let's take a hypothetical case where I find a plane I really like and fits my needs, but the panel is lacking and needs work (1960s radios, oddball arrangement, beat to hell, etc). I want to pull the panel, strip & refinish, clean up the wiring and install some used but more up to date radios, maybe LED lighting, etc. Can I do that myself, with an avionics tech checking and signing off?

I'm shopping around... I see some good candidate airplanes, but some have panels that I can only describe as pathetic. And I'll limit the question to only factory built, certificated aircraft -- E/AB planes are not a consideration for me. I'm perfectly capable of doing the work, just need to know if I can legally do it.

the legal stuff is FAR 43.3
(d) A person working under the supervision of a holder of a mechanic or repairman certificate may perform the maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alterations that his supervisor is authorized to perform, if the supervisor personally observes the work being done to the extent necessary to ensure that it is being done properly and if the supervisor is readily available, in person, for consultation. However, this paragraph does not authorize the performance of any inspection required by Part 91 or Part 125 of this chapter or any inspection performed after a major repair or alteration.

the A&P can do!

65.81 General privileges and limitations.

(a) A certificated mechanic may perform or supervise the maintenance, preventive maintenance or alteration of an aircraft or appliance, or a part thereof, for which he is rated (but excluding major repairs to, and major alterations of, propellers, and any repair to, or alteration of, instruments), and may perform additional duties in accordance with §§65.85, 65.87, and 65.95. However, he may not supervise the maintenance, preventive maintenance, or alteration of, or approve and return to service, any aircraft or appliance, or part thereof, for which he is rated unless he has satisfactorily performed the work concerned at an earlier date. If he has not so performed that work at an earlier date, he may show his ability to do it by performing it to the satisfaction of the Administrator or under the direct supervision of a certificated and appropriately rated mechanic, or a certificated repairman, who has had previous experience in the specific operation concerned.

(b) A certificated mechanic may not exercise the privileges of his certificate and rating unless he understands the current instructions of the manufacturer, and the maintenance manuals, for the specific operation concerned.

Avionic techs are usually a A&P or a repairman. it does not require a special rating to repair avionics, except for repairing a transmitter, DME, or transponders, they require a FCC rating.

 

[poadeleted20]

The bottom line is that it's up to the person supervising your work. As Tom pointed out, most avionics shops have Repair Station certificates, and their non-mechanic techs are trained and certified by the shop. However, those non-mechanic techs are not authorized to do, sign, or supervise work outside that shop. Outside a repair station, it takes a mechanic with an Airframe rating to sign off such work. Not all independent mechanics are comfortable doing complex avionics installations, and they probably won't be willing to supervise someone doing work they themselves are not. You'll have to find a mechanic willing to work with you, and discuss with him/her exactly what s/he will allow you to do under his/her supervision.

 

[Tom-D]

The bottom line is that it's up to the person supervising your work. As Tom pointed out, most avionics shops have Repair Station certificates, and their non-mechanic techs are trained and certified by the shop. However, those non-mechanic techs are not authorized to do, sign, or supervise work outside that shop. Outside a repair station, it takes a mechanic with an Airframe rating to sign off such work. Not all independent mechanics are comfortable doing complex avionics installations, and they probably won't be willing to supervise someone doing work they themselves are not. You'll have to find a mechanic willing to work with you, and discuss with him/her exactly what s/he will allow you to do under his/her supervision.

Many of us are of the different opinion. If you are willing to buy a radio and a prewired harness and install it, and it works that's great, we will sign it off...

But If the blue smoke gets out it is on your dime not mine, because I ain't signing that off.

You best be sure you know what your doing, I know when a radio works and when it doesn't. as far as the installation goes it best be neat and proper or you get to do it over. The 43,13 gives the accepted methods

The only reason I do not like doing a radio instal is I can make a mistake as easy as any one, and it will cause me to spend way more money than I make on the job, getting it right for you.

blue smoke is expensive

 

[Skylane81E]

The only reason I do not like doing a radio instal is I can make a mistake as easy as any one, and it will cause me to spend way more money than I make on the job, getting it right for you.

blue smoke is expensive

Avionics geeks exist for a reason. When a small goof get's expencive it's nice to have an expert on the job. I also imagine that I'm fairly typical as an A&P IA in not being much of an expert at anything, but good at just about everything.

 

[Tom-D]

Avionics geeks exist for a reason. When a small goof get's expencive it's nice to have an expert on the job. I also imagine that I'm fairly typical as an A&P IA in not being much of an expert at anything, but good at just about everything.

They exist because it is a field that requires big bucks to comply with FAR 43.13, and the pubs and equipment are not easy to move from one project to the next, most is build into the bench, so we set up shop and allow the customer come to us.

To clear "repairman" can only exist with in a CRS (Certified repair station) those shops must have a DOM they are the ones responsible for return to service under the CRS license. Any avionics tech working under their own name must have at least a "A" Airframe certificate. Those who don't will give you a work order that meets FAR 43.9 for the work completed and your A&P will return to service.

 

[David]

If you use these folks, almost all of the wiring is reduced to plug and play.

http://approachfaststack.com/

They make wiring harness based on the radios you're planning to use and where they're located in your panel. The harnesses also can include the mic and headset jacks. For complex installations they provide a hub. For simple installations like my chipmunk, they just made up the harnesses needed for the radio/intercom and transponder/encoder. They package it all up very neatly with all of the paper work and wiring diagrams. And they are a pleasure to work with.

 

[Tom-D]

Since not all non-mechanic avionics techs in certified repair stations have Repairman certificates, I'd appreciate deletion of your post changing what I said. It's the shop's option whether or not to use only certificated personnel (Repairmen or Mechanics) or to also use non-certificated employees who have been trained and certified IAW the shop's training program to perform specific tasks. See 14 CFR 145.141. But per 65.103, Repairmen are in the same boat as non-certificated employees of Part 145 Repair Stations when it comes to supervising Joe Pilot's work on Joe's own airplane -- not permitted.

You first used the term "non-mechanic" then change to "non certified employees"

show me a FAA definition of either term. ??

you must know and understand the rules for training in a CRS, before you can state who can and can not return to service. There is no quicker way to loose the CRS certificate than to have a untrained non certified employee return any thing to service..

They must be properly certified "repairmen" or they never touch the sign offs.

 

[Tom-D]

Since not all non-mechanic avionics techs in certified repair stations have Repairman certificates, I'd appreciate deletion of your post changing what I said. It's the shop's option whether or not to use only certificated personnel (Repairmen or Mechanics) or to also use non-certificated employees who have been trained and certified IAW the shop's training program to perform specific tasks. See 14 CFR 145.141. But per 65.103, Repairmen are in the same boat as non-certificated employees of Part 145 Repair Stations when it comes to supervising Joe Pilot's work on Joe's own airplane -- not permitted.

The rule is simple

145.157 Personnel authorized to approve an article for return to service.

(a) A certificated repair station located inside the United States must ensure each person authorized to approve an article for return to service under the repair station certificate and operations specifications is certificated under part 65.

I see nothing in part 65.103 that prevents a repairmen from supervising a owner from doing their own installs.

5.103 Repairman certificate: Privileges and limitations.
top

(a) A certificated repairman may perform or supervise the maintenance, preventive maintenance, or alteration of aircraft or aircraft components appropriate to the job for which the repairman was employed and certificated, but only in connection with duties for the certificate holder by whom the repairman was employed and recommended.


(b) A certificated repairman may not perform or supervise duties under the repairman certificate unless the repairman understands the current instructions of the certificate holder by whom the repairman is employed and the manufacturer's instructions for continued airworthiness relating to the specific operations concerned.

(c) This section does not apply to the holder of a repairman certificate (light-sport aircraft) while that repairman is performing work under that certificate.

 

[DaleB]

But If the blue smoke gets out it is on your dime not mine, because I ain't signing that off.

You best be sure you know what your doing, I know when a radio works and when it doesn't. as far as the installation goes it best be neat and proper or you get to do it over.

Understood. Of course the whole purpose of doing the work myself would be for me to do it properly, meticulously, and neatly, without having to pay someone else to sit there for hours and hours lacing wires and documenting everything.

I'm not an A&P or an FAA/FCC certified repairman. I am, however, someone who's been doing work like this for a long time, and can do a pretty good job of it.

And, David -- thanks for that link, I'll check them out!

 

[Tom-D]

Understood. Of course the whole purpose of doing the work myself would be for me to do it properly, meticulously, and neatly, without having to pay someone else to sit there for hours and hours lacing wires and documenting everything.

I'm not an A&P or an FAA/FCC certified repairman. I am, however, someone who's been doing work like this for a long time, and can do a pretty good job of it.

And, David -- thanks for that link, I'll check them out!

You should have no problem finding an A&P to supervise your work and sign it off.

The maintenance record entry should look like this (description of work)

see FAR 43.9

removed and replaced Bla Bla..... IAW reference here ,

..........your name here ... pilots number here.......
.......... under the supervision of ........
........... A&P's name here,,,,, their number here....

 

[denverpilot]

You should have no problem finding an A&P to supervise your work and sign it off.

You DO live in the boonies, don't you? Must be nice.

 

[poadeleted20]

The rule is simple

145.157 Personnel authorized to approve an article for return to service.

(a) A certificated repair station located inside the United States must ensure each person authorized to approve an article for return to service under the repair station certificate and operations specifications is certificated under part 65.

I see nothing in part 65.103 that prevents a repairmen from supervising a owner from doing their own installs.

5.103 Repairman certificate: Privileges and limitations.
top

(a) A certificated repairman may perform or supervise the maintenance, preventive maintenance, or alteration of aircraft or aircraft components appropriate to the job for which the repairman was employed and certificated, but only in connection with duties for the certificate holder by whom the repairman was employed and recommended.

You quoted the exact verbiage which makes that illegal. The owner is not an employee of the shop trained for the task by the shop, and so is prohibited from working in the shop, and the repairman cannot supervise the owner outside the shop because that is not "in connection with duties for the certificate holder by whom the repairman was employed and recommended."

 

[Tom-D]

You quoted the exact verbiage which makes that illegal. The owner is not an employee of the shop trained for the task by the shop, and so is prohibited from working in the shop, and the repairman cannot supervise the owner outside the shop because that is not "in connection with duties for the certificate holder by whom the repairman was employed and recommended."

There is nothing in that statement prohibiting a repairman from supervising the owner from doing the work under the supervision.

the only stipulation is, it must happen within the CRS. and that can happen in any hangar, not just the building the CRS sign is hanging on.

There is no FAR stating the repairman can't come to your hangar to supervise you under the CRS scope of work.

 

[poadeleted20]

There is nothing in that statement prohibiting a repairman from supervising the owner from doing the work under the supervision.

the only stipulation is, it must happen within the CRS. and that can happen in any hangar, not just the building the CRS sign is hanging on.

There is no FAR stating the repairman can't come to your hangar to supervise you under the CRS scope of work.

You need to read 145.151 again. Unless the pilot/owner is an employee of the repair station, whose abilities have been determined IAW with the shop's rules, s/he cannot touch anything being done under that repair station's aegis, and a Repairman cannot supervise him/her either inside or outside the shop's physical spaces.

 

[Tom-D]

You need to read 145.151 again. Unless the pilot/owner is an employee of the repair station, whose abilities have been determined IAW with the shop's rules, s/he cannot touch anything being done under that repair station's aegis, and a Repairman cannot supervise him/her either inside or outside the shop's physical spaces.

And you still need to delete your false quotation of what I said.

Each certificated repair station must—
FAR 141.151
(a) Designate a repair station employee as the accountable manager;

(b) Provide qualified personnel to plan, supervise, perform, and approve for return to service the maintenance, preventive maintenance, or alterations performed under the repair station certificate and operations specifications;


(c) Ensure it has a sufficient number of employees with the training or knowledge and experience in the performance of maintenance, preventive maintenance, or alterations authorized by the repair station certificate and operations specifications to ensure all work is performed in accordance with part 43; and

(d) Determine the abilities of its noncertificated employees performing maintenance functions based on training, knowledge, experience, or practical tests.

I see nothing in this regulation that prevents me form sending one of my CRS repairmen over to your hangar to exercise the privileges give to them under FAR 65.103
a) A certificated repairman may perform or supervise the maintenance, preventive maintenance, or alteration of aircraft or aircraft components appropriate to the job for which the repairman was employed and certificated, but only in connection with duties for the certificate holder by whom the repairman was employed and recommended.

The Repairmen working in a CRS that has the certificate for airframe repair can send one of its repairmen over to a customers hangar to supervise the recover of any aircraft that the CRS has been hired to sign off when completed.

Its done IAW FAA blessing in every CRS I know of. If you want a Avionics shop to sign off your installation you must contact them first, (like always) enplane what you want to do, gain their permission to go ahead, when you are complete, the CRS can send any of their repairmen over to your hangar to inspect the job, perfectly legal.



But I do see the term "noncertificated employees" So I will delete my post correcting your usage of the term.

 

[Tom-D]

I don't care whether the FAA defines the term or not. You changed what I wrote and left it under my name when quoting me. Since what I wrote is completely accurate and what I intended to say, and what you changed is not, that is unacceptable to me.

Every time any one else uses a improper tern you are all over them with the proper usage of verbiage.

a noncertified employee can be any thing from a mech in training to the front office receptionist.

A repairman can supervise the work of those employees that are in training to be repairmen, and they can also inspect any job contracted to the CRS,with in their training and certification. It does not matter where the work occurred, or what uncertified person did the work.

 

[poadeleted20]

The Repairmen working in a CRS that has the certificate for airframe repair can send one of its repairmen over to a customers hangar to supervise the recover of any aircraft that the CRS has been hired to sign off when completed.

Sure -- as long as the work is done by employees of that CRS.

And while it's not an FAA issue, I have little doubt that the CRS's insurer would have heart failure if they knew the CRS was signing off work performed by someone other than an authorized employee of the CRS. It just ain't like when Joe Mechanic working out of the back of his pickup is supervising and signing Fred Pilot's work.

But I do see the term "noncertificated employees" So I will delete my post correcting your usage of the term.

Thank you.

 

[Skylane81E]

Thank god, I was about to turn the car arround!

 

[Tom-D]

Sure -- as long as the work is done by employees of that CRS..

The owner of the aircraft being recovered, is not required to work for the CRS.

This rule only covers what the Repairmen can do. And they can supervise any one.

My FSDO and I have been over this ground many times when I was a CRS, they have accompanied me to jobs as a part of my yearly audit. They became such a PITA that I gave up my CRS certificate simly because the training requirements for repairmen and the record keeping was taking more time to complete than the work its self.

But the Inspectors never asked who the repairmen were supervising, even though they knew the owners were working under the supervision of my people.

You are correct in thinking this seldom happens because in most cases of panel up dates and recovering aircraft or other repairs there are 337s and major repairs that require a A&P-IA to return to service, or the CRS simply runs the owner off because they want the work and the hours to charge.

but there is nothing illegal about the repairmen exercising there privileges, in the manor I sited.

 

[Tom-D]

S
And while it's not an FAA issue,
It certainly is, who's regulations were you talking about?
I have little doubt that the CRS's insurer would have heart failure if they knew the CRS was signing off work performed by someone other than an authorized employee of the CRS.

This thread wasn't about insurance until you just brought it up. So show me the FAA regulation that requires any FBO or CRS to have insurance.


Granted its pretty stupid if they don't, but that is none of the FAA's business.

 

[poadeleted20]

I give up, Tom -- good luck.

 

[Tom-D]

I give up, Tom -- good luck.

Yep, we've beat this dead horse enough,, and remember, what's legal isn't always smart, what's smart isn't always legal.

 

[kontiki]

Just curious, If you buy a harness assmebly from these folks, does it come with any approval paperwork? Is it a specifc part listed in an STC data package?

It's no longer an operator just making a part for her airplane, when you buy it as an assembly.

If you use these folks, almost all of the wiring is reduced to plug and play.

http://approachfaststack.com/

They make wiring harness based on the radios you're planning to use and where they're located in your panel. The harnesses also can include the mic and headset jacks. For complex installations they provide a hub. For simple installations like my chipmunk, they just made up the harnesses needed for the radio/intercom and transponder/encoder. They package it all up very neatly with all of the paper work and wiring diagrams. And they are a pleasure to work with.

The reason I ask is because I've been put through the wringer on this sort of simple no brainer part in the part-121 environment and it got to be a huge PIA very fast.

The logic I understand goes something like this:

You can buy approved aviation connectors, wire, pins, etc from an approved aviation manufacturer, but once you turn it into an assembly, there has to be a records trail back to original source for materials. There also has to be accountability for processes and craftmanship required to assemble the original piece parts into an airplane part.

Where wire harnesses are concerned; the same skill set used to repair a harness on an airplane, or assemble piece parts into a harness on an airplane, are in fact the same skills (and tooling) required to manufacture the assembly at a factory some place.


When the manufacturer has FAA MIDI (Manufacturing Inspection District Office) approval to make airplane parts:

The assembled parts are made using FAA approved data.

The DWGs that define the finshed assembly trace everything back to the original aviation parts supplier.

The manufacturers approved processes attest that they use the same skills and approved tooling (with calibration processes) required on the airplane.

In order for the harness DWG (the data) to be approved, it had to be a DWG in the Master DWG list approved by the STC.

Realize an STC is simply a certificate that attests that an associated pile of paperwork "data" is approved by the adminstrator.

Also, a good shop has crimping tools on a calibration program where dimensional tolerance of the crimp dies is checked regularly.

It gets nutty, when I can have an approved part 145 repair station assemble wires into a harness on an airplane per company paperwork, but they are not approved to manufacture a harness assembly "a part" defined on the companies DWG as an assembly for installation.

Underlying facts do change as you move from environment to environment, sometimes making the logic hard to follow. I expect these folks are probably selling harnesses legally. I'm interested in how. What would be different for them?

 

[Tom-D]

Just curious, If you buy a harness assembly from these folks, does it come with any approval paperwork? Is it a specific part listed in an STC data package?

It's no longer an operator just making a part for her airplane, when you buy it as an assembly.

snip

Underlying facts do change as you move from environment to environment, sometimes making the logic hard to follow. I expect these folks are probably selling harnesses legally. I'm interested in how. What would be different for them?

I don't understand your point other than operating in part 91 is not comparable to 121.

buying a wire harness assembled by any one and installed by the owner under supervision returned to service under rules of part 43, 65, and 91 are nether a STC or a major modification.

 

[kontiki]

If you buy a harness from http://approachfaststack.com/
you buy a harness assembly, assigned their P/N. You are buying a part, not something assembled under owner/operator supervision.

Where do they get approval authority to manufacture the harness as an aircraft part?

I could see how they might have PMA authority to make a part defined in a package for a specific STC, but that P/N would need to be listed in the STC.

How does it work?

 

[PilotAlan]

If you buy a harness from http://approachfaststack.com/
you buy a harness assembly, assigned their P/N. You are buying a part, not something assembled under owner/operator supervision.

Where do they get approval authority to manufacture the harness as an aircraft part?

I could see how they might have PMA authority to make a part defined in a package for a specific STC, but that P/N would need to be listed in the STC.

How does it work?

How about going to the website?

Q. What does the FAA think about it? Is the Fast Stack Hub STC'd or PMA'd?
A. The Approach Fast Stack Pro-G and Pro-X Hubs have been issued PMA. The Approach Fast Stack Hub has no power and is considered an inactive component falling under junction box regulations requiring no STC. All wiring complies with FAA Regulation AC 43.13-1B & AC 43.13-2A. All that is required to install the Approach Fast Stack Hub and Cable System in a certified aircrafts is an FAA Form 337. Nothing is required to install Approach Fast Stack products into experimental aircraft.

Q. How do I install the Fast Stack System into a certified aircraft?
A. An FAA Form 337 is required for a certified aircraft install. Everything required for the 337 application is included in the installation manual supplied with all Fast Stack Hubs. The Hub is considered a junction box and requires no PMA or STC.

Q. Have you ever had a 337 denied?
A. No.

 

[kontiki]

I read this and took it at face value.

They make wiring harness based on the radios you're planning to
use and where they're located in your panel.

I guess, you have to buy the Hub when you buy the other equipment.

Hub installtion by itself is an FAA Major Alteration approved on a 337, and the cable is part of that regardless of the approval basis for the other gear going in.

I suppose I could have dug through their page, I thought I'd ask the guy that recommended them.

I think it's great too. It looks like a useful product, especially for folks nervous about working with wiring. It just sounded too easy minus all the other details.

 

[Tom-D]

The 337 pre-approval is an easy do, but it is not an owner do. it will require an A&P-IA to return to service.

this installation is no more difficult that any other radio stack upgrade.

Getting back, any harness made in the field (other than the factory) that is to replace existing wiring is simply returned to service by a A&P as a log book entry.

Say some one in the past has removed an old ADF, Loran, etc. and did not remove the harness (that happens a lot) you as a owner can remove that harness and no entry is required, because the harness should have been removed when the unit came out, and the wiring that is left in the aircraft has already been returned to service as airworthy.

 

[Tom-D]

How about going to the website?

We must remember that a upgrade of this magnitude which uses this equipment will have weight and balance issues as well as equipment list updates that require a A&P to return to service

 

[Mister Mystery Man]

Free Panel Design CAD Software

This is a free layout and design program that you can download. If you want, the company that provides it can make the panel and silkscreen the markings on it for you... or you can do the whole thing yourself.

I've used this for fabricating panels for ham radio equipment and audio / intercom panels.

http://www.frontpanelexpress.com/

MMM

 

[SCCutler]

Re: Free Panel Design CAD Software

This is a free layout and design program that you can download. If you want, the company that provides it can make the panel and silkscreen the markings on it for you... or you can do the whole thing yourself.

I've used this for fabricating panels for ham radio equipment and audio / intercom panels.

http://www.frontpanelexpress.com/

MMM

OK...

..that there is one great resource!

 

[Tom-D]

Re: Free Panel Design CAD Software

OK...

..that there is one great resource!

You can design any panel you like, getting it to work is another matter.

some items simply will not fit in some locations, you have yokes and other stuff that move and must clear all the items in the panel.

this is one time fit and function is more important than looks.

 

[SCCutler]

Re: Free Panel Design CAD Software

You can design any panel you like, getting it to work is another matter.

some items simply will not fit in some locations, you have yokes and other stuff that move and must clear all the items in the panel.

this is one time fit and function is more important than looks.

Absolutely agree; this might be the ultimate expression of "measure (many times), cut once."

Bonanza panels, with all that scissor-link monkey-motion in the back, are a great illustration of that principle. You can have something that fits just fine with the controls at rest, and at full-extension, but *not* in the middle.

 

[DaleB]

Did I mention one of my newest toys is a CNC milling machine" Cuts, scores and engraves aluminum, plastic, brass & wood just as slick as you please.

In theory -- and that's what this is, since I don't know if I'll need or want to do it or not -- I could cut a mockup in clear acrylic or whatever, check fit and cable routing, adjust as needed and when it's right cut it out of aluminum stock. With a nice wood overlay if desired.

More likely would be pull the panel, clean up and replace whatever wiring/hoses/whatever needs it, strip and refinish the panel, reinstall stuff in its original locations - possibly with an extra widget or two (engine monitor, fuel totalizer, whatever) if the budget allows. MAYBE shuffle things a little to get a standard arrangement, if things will fit and all. Not a full-on custom job, just a cleanup, refresh, that sort of thing.