Question re NOTAMs and Restricted Areas

[eetrojan]

Hi all – I’m thinking about my first solo XC, a short two-leg flight from KSNA to KRNM and back. I may or may not choose this route, but one option is flying along the coast, say at 3500 feet, and passing next to restricted areas 2503A and 2503D. I could stay farther from shore and be clear of this airspace, but I prefer to remain closer if possible. Here’s a SkyVector chart:

http://goo.gl/AynYv

And, here’s the "in use" info from the legend on the Los Angeles sectional:

If I’m reading this right, the lower area 2503A is active from 0600-2400, but it's not a factor becaue it only extends to 2000 and I’ll be higher than that. However, the upper area 2503D extends from 2000 to 11,000, and is “intermittent by NOTAM 24 Hrs in advance.”

I would call SoCal (124.1) when I’m en route to confirm that 2503D is inactive, but I figured this would be a good time to understand the NOTAM issue. If it were going to be active, I'd rather know the night before.

What’s the best way to officially check the NOTAM status? Assuming I was going to fly in the morning (i.e. within 24 hours), would it be by requesting NOTAMS in an “outlook” report via duat.com with a route of KSNA VPLDP OCN KNRM? Or is there a better, more official way to check?

Thanks!

 

[35 AoA]

Every restricted area has an "owner" so to speak, who handles range scheduling. It would be some military agency, which you could theoretically call in advance.......we do that all the time to see if there might be open range time somewhere. I don't know who 2503 belongs to, other than it must be some entity at Camp Pendleton. Most ranges that I frequent are generally booked up most days through the typical working day, if not well into the evening, so I wouldn't put much stock in calling ahead. The way ranges open up is that the event in question cancels for some reason (weather, maintenance, etc), and those are normally pretty last minute.....that or a squadron doesn't use all their range time, and it is randomly open for 10-20 minutes or so. So calling in the air is probably still the most effective way of seeing if a range is hot. I'm not really familiar with attempting to transit inactive R airspace as a civilian, so I have no idea if that is something that is done or not.

 

[Walsh029]

Hi eetrojan.

I fly around this area fairly regularly as I got my ppl out of L18 and also fly out of CRQ. I've never risked transiting the R area and typically just remain a few miles off shore when heading up the coast. For your route and altitude you can easily remain within gliding distance of the shore and cutting the R area really won't save you any time on your way to Ramona. Just fly direct to the Ocanside VOR and then direct to RNM. Also, the terrain on Pendleton does get up there and you would need a higher altitude than 3500 to be safe.

Good luck!

 

[eetrojan]

Every restricted area has an "owner" so to speak, who handles range scheduling. It would be some military agency, which you could theoretically call in advance.......we do that all the time to see if there might be open range time somewhere. I don't know who 2503 belongs to, other than it must be some entity at Camp Pendleton. Most ranges that I frequent are generally booked up most days through the typical working day, if not well into the evening, so I wouldn't put much stock in calling ahead. The way ranges open up is that the event in question cancels for some reason (weather, maintenance, etc), and those are normally pretty last minute.....that or a squadron doesn't use all their range time, and it is randomly open for 10-20 minutes or so. So calling in the air is probably still the most effective way of seeing if a range is hot. I'm not really familiar with attempting to transit inactive R airspace as a civilian, so I have no idea if that is something that is done or not.

Hi 35 AoA, the legend says that the controlling agency is "SO CAL TRACON" on frequency 124.1. I would definitely call them on the radio from the air.

I assume that there's somebody at Camp Pendleton that informs SoCal, but I wasn't thinking of phoning them, just trying to figure out where this 24-hour NOTAM is officially published or absent.

A bit confusing to me.

 

[eetrojan]

Hi eetrojan.

I fly around this area fairly regularly as I got my ppl out of L18 and also fly out of CRQ. I've never risked transiting the R area and typically just remain a few miles off shore when heading up the coast. For your route and altitude you can easily remain within gliding distance of the shore and cutting the R area really won't save you any time on your way to Ramona. Just fly direct to the Ocanside VOR and then direct to RNM. Also, the terrain on Pendleton does get up there and you would need a higher altitude than 3500 to be safe.

Good luck!

Thanks Walsh029. The fact that you trained right next to Camp Pendleton, out of L18, but never transited any of the R area is pretty telling that my idea is not the best. Good point on the altitude. would the next VFR level of 5500 be consistent with your experience? Also, coming from the north, how would I fly direct to OCN VOR without clipping the upper R area? Thanks again.

 

[poadeleted20]

What’s the best way to officially check the NOTAM status? Assuming I was going to fly in the morning (i.e. within 24 hours), would it be by requesting NOTAMS in an “outlook” report via duat.com with a route of KSNA VPLDP OCN KNRM? Or is there a better, more official way to check?

There is no more "official" way to check NOTAMs than by obtaining a briefing from an approved briefing source such as FSS, DUAT, DUATS, flightplan.com, etc. Since this one says "24 hours in advance," the night before should be sufficient, but in general, checking the night before is not sufficient -- you must check again prior to departure for any "pop-up" NOTAMs. See Administrator v. Ferguson for details on that. And regardless of all that, it's still prudent to be talking to ATC before penetrating any R-area -- one mid-air collision with a 500-lb bomb or 105mm howitzer shell can spoil your whole day.

 

[eetrojan]

There is no more "official" way to check NOTAMs than by obtaining a briefing from an approved briefing source such as FSS, DUAT, DUATS, flightplan.com, etc. Since this one says "24 hours in advance," the night before should be sufficient, but in general, checking the night before is not sufficient -- you must check again prior to departure for any "pop-up" NOTAMs. See Administrator v. Ferguson for details on that. And regardless of all that, it's still prudent to be talking to ATC before penetrating any R-area -- one mid-air collision with a 500-lb bomb or 105mm howitzer shell can spoil your whole day.

Thanks Ron.

 

[35 AoA]

Hi 35 AoA, the legend says that the controlling agency is "SO CAL TRACON" on frequency 124.1. I would definitely call them on the radio from the air.

I assume that there's somebody at Camp Pendleton that informs SoCal, but I wasn't thinking of phoning them, just trying to figure out where this 24-hour NOTAM is officially published or absent.

A bit confusing to me.

You got it. What I meant was that there is a military agency of some sort who handles scheduling/administration/etc for the range. There is a corresponding TRACON that handles traffic coming in and out, and works deconfliction for non-participants, which would be socal in this case.

 

[Palmpilot]

...in general, checking the night before is not sufficient -- you must check again prior to departure for any "pop-up" NOTAMs. See Administrator v. Ferguson for details on that...

Thanks for the link. I really wish there were a regulation against issuing last minute NOTAMs in non-emergency situations. 22 minutes before takeoff is not reasonable. (Of course, this guy also also saw and ignored a truck on the runway, so not having the NOTAM was not his only problem.)

 

[Palmpilot]

Thanks Walsh029. The fact that you trained right next to Camp Pendleton, out of L18, but never transited any of the R area is pretty telling that my idea is not the best.

I don't think the fact that another pilot has never done something necessarily means it is unwise.

I have transitioned the restricted area over Edwards Air Force Base, and I have heard other pilots doing it too. ATC tells you yes or no, and if yes, what portion of the airspace is safe to use.

 

[eetrojan]

I don't think the fact that another pilot has never done something necessarily means it is unwise.

I have transitioned the restricted area over Edwards Air Force Base, and I have heard other pilots doing it too. ATC tells you yes or no, and if yes, what portion of the airspace is safe to use.

I agree, but it's interesting that the comment came from Walsh029 who trained at L18 (Fallbrook), a little airport that is only about 0.5 NM away from the south-east wall of the related R-space that goes to FL 270 .

I have seen several articles that encourage the reader to freely transit R-space if confirmed cold, and I have seen articles that say just fly around and avoid any risk. You would think that a school at an airport that is right next to some R-space that extends just over the coastline, and is hot for a maximum of 20 days a year, would take the first approach, but it sounds like they taught the generally avoid approach.

Just something to think about...

 

[poadeleted20]

Thanks for the link. I really wish there were a regulation against issuing last minute NOTAMs in non-emergency situations. 22 minutes before takeoff is not reasonable. (Of course, this guy also also saw and ignored a truck on the runway, so not having the NOTAM was not his only problem.)

If you read between the lines, it's pretty clear that Mr. Ferguson was already on their radar, probably in high prf, and they were just waiting for him to give them anything on which to nail him -- and he obliged.

 

[poadeleted20]

I have seen several articles that encourage the reader to freely transit R-space if confirmed cold, and I have seen articles that say just fly around and avoid any risk.

I'd put the latter in the same category as not landing because an airplane is at the hold short line when the tower has cleared you to land.

 

[eetrojan]

I'd put the latter in the same category as not landing because an airplane is at the hold short line when the tower has cleared you to land.

LOL. Fair enough. I'll remember that.

 

[coma24]

I have to agree...no need to give Restricted areas an unusually wide berth. Have confidence that the lack of a NOTAM means it's cold. I'd get a standard briefing the night before and peruse the FDC NOTAMS, or more likely, use the search function in your browser for '2503' and see if you get any hits.

If you have flight following and you're going to fly through it, AND it's hot, you'll hear about it from ATC beforehand, but if you still feel better asking the TRACON in real time, then go for it.

 

[poadeleted20]

I have to agree...no need to give Restricted areas an unusually wide berth. Have confidence that the lack of a NOTAM means it's cold.

I'd still want to check with ATC prior to entry, but if they say it's cold, I'm willing to accept the minuscule risk that someone is playing around with bombs or guns when they should not be, as I've never heard of that actually happening in a cold R-area.

I'd get a standard briefing the night before and peruse the FDC NOTAMS, or more likely, use the search function in your browser for '2503' and see if you get any hits.

It will be in the Airspace NOTAMs, not the FDC NOTAMs.

 

[eetrojan]

It will be in the Airspace NOTAMs, not the FDC NOTAMs.

Ron et al. - If I pull a “Standard Route Briefing” at duat.com, I get a lengthy NOTAMS section that includes these sub-sections:

• Departure NOTAMS
• Route NOTAMS
• ARTCC NOTAMS
• Other NOTAMS
• Flight Data Center NOTAMS
• General Flight Data Center NOTAMS

Would Airspace NOTAMS relating to R-space, if any, be amongst those appearing in the “Route NOTAMS”?

 

[poadeleted20]

Ron et al. - If I pull a “Standard Route Briefing” at duat.com, I get a lengthy NOTAMS section that includes these sub-sections:

• Departure NOTAMS
• Route NOTAMS
• ARTCC NOTAMS
• Other NOTAMS
• Flight Data Center NOTAMS
• General Flight Data Center NOTAMS

Would Airspace NOTAMS relating to R-space, if any, be amongst those appearing in the “Route NOTAMS”?

I am not familiar with how DUAT breaks things down, but R-area NOTAMs are classified as "Airspace" NOTAMs in the body of the NOTAM itself and appear as such in DUATS briefings. There is no such official category as "Route" NOTAMs, so perhaps DUAT puts Airway NOTAMs there along with others such as Navigation and Communication NOTAMs.

 

[eetrojan]

Thank you again!

 

[Walsh029]

I agree, but it's interesting that the comment came from Walsh029 who trained at L18 (Fallbrook), a little airport that is only about 0.5 NM away from the south-east wall of the related R-space that goes to FL 270 .

I have seen several articles that encourage the reader to freely transit R-space if confirmed cold, and I have seen articles that say just fly around and avoid any risk. You would think that a school at an airport that is right next to some R-space that extends just over the coastline, and is hot for a maximum of 20 days a year, would take the first approach, but it sounds like they taught the generally avoid approach.

Just something to think about...

I'm certainly not an expert on Restricted airspace and have no where near the experience level some of the pilots on this forum have. I'm just giving my perspective as a lowly SEL private pilot who likes to take weekend trips around California/ Nevada and AZ. My perspective was that for your flight to Ramona it would be less of a headache to just avoid the R area all together. It's not out of the way at all and the ride will be much smoother coming down the coast over the water! As a student pilot you have enough to worry about as it is!

I live about 2 minutes from L18 and can see Just about all Pendleton airspace out to the coast. I'm not saying it can't be done but I've never seem a GA plane cut through the R area.

 

[eetrojan]

I'm certainly not an expert on Restricted airspace and have no where near the experience level some of the pilots on this forum have. I'm just giving my perspective as a lowly SEL private pilot who likes to take weekend trips around California/ Nevada and AZ. My perspective was that for your flight to Ramona it would be less of a headache to just avoid the R area all together. It's not out of the way at all and the ride will be much smoother coming down the coast over the water! As a student pilot you have enough to worry about as it is!

I live about 2 minutes from L18 and can see Just about all Pendleton airspace out to the coast. I'm not saying it can't be done but I've never seem a GA plane cut through the R area.

Thank you! I value your input, especially because it's your neck of the woods.

 

[chartbundle]

R-2503D is very rarely active and is perfectly safe to fly through. Check your NOTAMs and get flight following and don't cut inland too soon. They put out tons of press down here(SD) when it goes active as that's a major IFR and VFR(OCN V23 SLI) corridor and impacts the frequent practice approaches into Oceanside.

 

[Fearless Tower]

R-2503D is very rarely active and is perfectly safe to fly through. Check your NOTAMs and get flight following and don't cut inland too soon. They put out tons of press down here(SD) when it goes active as that's a major IFR and VFR(OCN V23 SLI) corridor and impacts the frequent practice approaches into Oceanside.

This. The Marines use R-2503 A&D maybe once or twice per year. It will always be NOTAM'd in advance....particularly because when it is hot, SoCal loses the airway for IFR purposes.

As with any x-country flight, get a briefing and check the NOTAMs before you fly and you will be fine.


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[jonnyjetprop]

FWIW, I used to fly single engine cargo along that route many years ago. I never had a problem getting clearance thru the restricted area. I spoke to and was cleared thru by a military controller, call sign long rifle. Nothing like flying thru a mock invasion in you Cessna 207.

 

[35 AoA]

I would second (or third) that if ATC tells you the range is closed, then it is. Just like civilian pilots, we don't get to go into R areas until we are positively cleared in......then the range is "hot". If we weren't cleared in, then we are in the same amount of trouble as anyone else. Same deal for everyone.

 

[poadeleted20]

I would second (or third) that if ATC tells you the range is closed, then it is. Just like civilian pilots, we don't get to go into R areas until we are positively cleared in......then the range is "hot". If we weren't cleared in, then we are in the same amount of trouble as anyone else.

Maybe not quite the same -- it's never as bad for the bomb-dropper as it is for the bomb-droppee. :wink2:

 

[35 AoA]

Maybe not quite the same -- it's never as bad for the bomb-dropper as it is for the bomb-droppee. :wink2:

True. And it would certainly be much more dangerous for a completely non-participating civilian aircraft, who doesn't even have the radios to be talking to anyone, to venture through. 95% of my time in special use airspace is spent at greater than 350 knots and involves heavy maneuvering. In R airspace, it also generally involves dropping bombs (live or otherwise) and/or shooting the gun. I've also shot a live Sparrow and dropped a live JSOW (which is basically a 1000ish lb airplane with a bomb in it) in offshore W airspace, among other things.......not to mention being supersonic a lot offshore or in the Nellis/Fallon/Yuma ranges otherwise. Just to give you an idea of what goes on when the airspace is "hot".

 

[Threefingeredjack]

As with most things, communication is the key. Check the day you fly, and confirm once in the air. That particular area can be a beehive for a few hours and then totally dead for days.

 

[eetrojan]

As with most things, communication is the key. Check the day you fly, and confirm once in the air. That particular area can be a beehive for a few hours and then totally dead for days.

Thanks. I my CFI approves the flight plan I drew up which involves nicking that R-space, I'm going to follows this advice.