Question from a younger resident - $$$$$$$$$$$?

[ESbuilder]

I'm a 20 year old college junior w/ commercial and starting my CMEL with an aeronautical science degree (worthless). After school I'm going to commission as an officer in the military with an aviation contract, and I intend to use the GI bill to get some graduate work done.

My question is... what avenues should I pursue to be making good $$$? I haven't been getting the most amazing grades in school (around a 3.0, lack of effort) but I was hoping future military service could offset that and get me into a good graduate school (law or MBA). I point to a friend who is a military pilot and doing graduate work at the same time (at a top 5 MBA biz school).

I don't want to be an airline pilot unless I have to, and my peers are worthless when it comes to asking for advice. That is one of the reasons I ask it here... I know there are alot of professionals...

 

[poadeleted20]

I can say for that my four years as a Naval officer were viewed strongly when I was accepted at the graduate business school at the University of Louisville despite my 2.3 undergraduate GPA -- the admissions folks made that abundantly clear. Of course, that was 30 years ago, and things may have changed, and I also brought a GMAT over 700 to the table. In addition, flying in a reserve unit in Louisville was a major factor in being able to afford graduate school without going in debt, and it's a lot easier to get a flying slot in a reserve unit if you're already a rated flyer (even from another service).

 

[tonycondon]

well you are on the right track by not going into the airlines, since you are interested in making money and all

-Aerospace Engineer Undergrad, CFI for life.

 

[JohnR]

My question is... what avenues should I pursue to be making good $$$?

It doesn't matter, if you're doing something you're not interested in. Start with what really excites you and figure out how other people are making "good $$$" at it. Or, just marry well.

 

[78tiger]

No offense intended, but have you thought all this through? The USAF/USN requires a 10 year commitment after graduation from pilot training, therefore about a 12 year commitment. During this period, you would be subject to frequent deployments, depending upon service/weapon system. It is possible to complete grad school, but unlikely to be at a top school, as needs of the service come first. You would then be about 12 years before you would be available to begin to earn real money, and behind your peers that did not go into the service. Is your goal to become a military aviator or to earn real money? As to possible careers, you will do best if you aim in a direction that you have true interests in. It is unlikely you will be top flight if you have no interest in the field. Lots of competition in the real world, and you need to figure out what you want to do when you grow up. Good luck, Greg

 

[ESbuilder]

No offense intended, but have you thought all this through? The USAF/USN requires a 10 year commitment after graduation from pilot training, therefore about a 12 year commitment. During this period, you would be subject to frequent deployments, depending upon service/weapon system. It is possible to complete grad school, but unlikely to be at a top school, as needs of the service come first. You would then be about 12 years before you would be available to begin to earn real money, and behind your peers that did not go into the service. Is your goal to become a military aviator or to earn real money? As to possible careers, you will do best if you aim in a direction that you have true interests in. It is unlikely you will be top flight if you have no interest in the field. Lots of competition in the real world, and you need to figure out what you want to do when you grow up. Good luck, Greg

I knew this question was going to get asked...

I wanted to get the graduate degree because it will open up more doors for me. What I want to do is do 20+, but I realize that doesen't happen all the time with things like force shaping and whatnot. I've always wanted to be a Marine, and being a NA would give me the best of both worlds... but like I said before things don't always work out like they are planned. And from what I understand the contractual obligation is 6 years for rotar and 8 years for fixed wing from completion of flight school... so if I didn't want to stay for 20 or couldn't, then what would I do? Besides.. don't the majority of officers who are O-4 or above have masters?

I've talked to two people who are pursuing MBA's while serving. Both said they are doing good and that what they do in the military puts them ahead of the competition in class... one is a phrog pilot and is doing it during his b-billet.

 

[SCCutler]

Never served (thanks to those who do, BTW), but I can tell you as an employer, the lyric "What have you done for me lately..." comes to mind.

Which is to say, a successful career as a military officer will serve you very well in both academic admissions, and in your post-military endeavors.

Just do the best you can do, in what you do, and things will find a way of working out.

My crappy grades, early on, were offset by much better grades later, better grades coupled with a significant change in life circumstances. You'll have that.

For me, it was like the first (bad) grades faded away in favor the later (very good grades), and admission to a very good law school was the result (for which I have never forgiven them...).

Best of luck.

 

[ESbuilder]

Never served (thanks to those who do, BTW), but I can tell you as an employer, the lyric "What have you done for me lately..." comes to mind.

Which is to say, a successful career as a military officer will serve you very well in both academic admissions, and in your post-military endeavors.

Just do the best you can do, in what you do, and things will find a way of working out.

My crappy grades, early on, were offset by much better grades later, better grades coupled with a significant change in life circumstances. You'll have that.

For me, it was like the first (bad) grades faded away in favor the later (very good grades), and admission to a very good law school was the result (for which I have never forgiven them...).

Best of luck.

Well, I have around a 3.0 and have 2 more years to make it up... so I'm not totally doomed on GPA alone

I can say for that my four years as a Naval officer were viewed strongly when I was accepted at the graduate business school at the University of Louisville despite my 2.3 undergraduate GPA -- the admissions folks made that abundantly clear.

If that is still how it works today, I should be alright then. I did make the mistake of pursuing an aeronautical science degree, instead of something like an engineering discipcle. (beating myself up over not doing chemE)

 

[poadeleted20]

And from what I understand the contractual obligation is 6 years for rotar and 8 years for fixed wing from completion of flight school...

Obligations have varied in my lifetime from 5 to 10 years after completing flight training, and they can change in a heartbeat. However, the one constant is that information obtained from any source other than an Aviation Officer Selection Officer is unreliable.

so if I didn't want to stay for 20 or couldn't, then what would I do?

Any one of a thousand things. Successful military officers leaving the service are always in demand in the business world in a wide variety of fields. Employers know they are smart, stable, hard-working, and self-starting, and not likely to be involved in stupid pastimes like recreational chemsitry.

Besides.. don't the majority of officers who are O-4 or above have masters?

Yes. The military is extremely strong on junior officers getting master's degrees and otherwise furthering their education, and it's a factor in promotion to O-4 and above.

I've talked to two people who are pursuing MBA's while serving. Both said they are doing good and that what they do in the military puts them ahead of the competition in class...

They are right.

 

[ESbuilder]

Obligations have varied in my lifetime from 5 to 10 years after completing flight training, and they can change in a heartbeat. However, the one constant is that information obtained from any source other than an Aviation Officer Selection Officer is unreliable.

The word I got was from my OSO who is winged, so I trust it to be accurate.

Any one of a thousand things. Successful military officers leaving the service are always in demand in the business world in a wide variety of fields. Employers know they are smart, stable, hard-working, and self-starting, and not likely to be involved in stupid pastimes like recreational chemsitry.

That is why I don't understand why the person above said I would be '12 years behind' everyone else..? I would think it would bring alot more to the table than 'the average guy'


Thank you for your input.

 

[poadeleted20]

That is why I don't understand why the person above said I would be '12 years behind' everyone else..?

Probably someone who never served and is secretly resentful/jealous of those who did.

I would think it would bring alot more to the table than 'the average guy'

You would be right, and most all civilian employers agree.

 

[wsuffa]

Which is to say, a successful career as a military officer will serve you very well in both academic admissions, and in your post-military endeavors.

As I've told a number of former (and at the time soon-to-be-former) military folks, when I hire people the military experience is a huge plus because it teaches life-skills that many other folks don't have...

 

[flyersfan31]

In a word, your service record will say "discipline" to future employers. That's a big selling point. Also, you'll be a bit older than your classmates (i.e. your competition). View that in a positive light -- it's amazing the maturity difference between your average 26yr old MBA and, say, a 32yr old MBA grad. Maturity, discipline -- these things are a competitive advantage.

I say this as a grad of a top-5 program, and as someone who handled MBA recruiting for my (former) employer. I never served in the military.

As long as the military doesn't get in the habit of clawing you back in every few years, as they seem increasingly prone to do, you should be on a good track. Of course, you still need to deliver the goods - paper qualifications are good for the same thing as toilet paper...

 

[astanley]

In a previous life, my employer hired heavily from retiring officer corps. In fact, I knew more guys and gals who graduated from an Academy than from "regular" colleges. "Career" types, i.e. 15+ years in the service, had the opportunities to go to top grad programs while in the service; others (up and outs, they were called) generally did not.

Military service with distinction does appear to be an enhancement to a grad school application. But, strong GMAT scores and solid acumen are also required, which may or may not play into a successful admission.

In terms of $s, an MBA is not a license to print money. Generally, the BIG BIG $ professions that require an MBA also are looking for amazing academic and career achievements - private equity, top 3 consulting, investment work - and there are lot of ex-military guys around there, especially in the governmetnal side of consulting. But those guys tend to be policy wonks who spent a large part of their career running around the Pentagon (at least, in my experience)

Good luck. Thanks for your service.

Cheers,

-Andrew
not an MBA, but has spent the past 5 years surrounded by them

 

[gismo]

The word I got was from my OSO who is winged, so I trust it to be accurate.



That is why I don't understand why the person above said I would be '12 years behind' everyone else..? I would think it would bring alot more to the table than 'the average guy'


Thank you for your input.

I think you'd only be '12 years behind' in terms of putting money in the bank, owning a home, etc. although even that's not universally true.

 

[wsuffa]

In terms of $s, an MBA is not a license to print money. Generally, the BIG BIG $ professions that require an MBA also are looking for amazing academic and career achievements - private equity, top 3 consulting, investment work - and there are lot of ex-military guys around there, especially in the governmetnal side of consulting. But those guys tend to be policy wonks who spent a large part of their career running around the Pentagon (at least, in my experience)

I would qualify that to say that the ability to print money with an MBA is dependant on 1) what school you went to, the connections you made, and who you know (and how arrogant you are about it, oops, did I say that?), and 2) how well you use the lessons learned to market yourself.

A lot of the "MBA seeker companies" on Wall Street are looking for a particular pedigree, like Harvard.... There are lots of folks that would demonstrate that a blind trust of Harvard is misplaced, but it is what it is... and there tends to be a LOT of arrogance associated with SOME graduates of the Harvard program. A school that's slightly lower tier (like UVA, GW, and the like) turn out very fine MBA graduates, too. Things like Thunderbird or online schools are best used to enhance your skills within the context of your existing employer.... there really is a LOT of benefit to the in-person interaction of a classroom setting.

Bill

 

[gkainz]

Personally, if I had it to do all over again, I would do a few things differently. I had an appointment to the AF Academy, but didn't have the vision for pilot quals. I turned it down and headed off to state university on my own dime. Realization #1 - Out of pocket tuition vs Academy tuition ... big difference.

As a freshman pursuing an EE, I realized I didn't really care for the Engineering part, thought I wanted practical electronics, but then didn't know how all the music credits would fit into the plan. Realization #2 - paying for credits just because I liked music was not really too smart.

Navy recruiter convinced me I could work practical, hands-on avionics and fly as well. He was right, I did, and enjoyed it immensely. However, as an E-5 enlisted crewman in the Hawkeye, I was doing the same job in the air as the 0-3 to 0-5 sitting in the seat next to me for a whole lot less pay, and then working in the avionics shop around flights. Realization #3 - I'm doing the same job as an E for a whole lot less pay than my O crew mates. Should have finished my degree and pursued a commission. I did look into commissioning programs, but the only thing available at the time could not guarantee me a flying billet and I had no desire to possibly go to sea as a ship's company officer not involved in aviation.

Got out of the Navy after 10 years, went to school on the old GI bill, which paid for finishing my BS CompSci and an MS Software Engineering. IT life has had its rewards, but now appears to be in a financial downswing, at least for me. Realization #4 - pursue your heart's desire over the almighty dollar and they say happiness will follow.

A lot of my friends from the military have retired a number of years ago. I could have retired over 10 years ago. You won't get rich on a Military pension, but it sure can help ease the financial burden of pursuing your next stage of life passion. I've worked with a number of retirees who have a whole different outlook on life and income with the security of the pension check coming every month. Realization #5 - shoulda gone for 20!

Okay - so I've rambled on way too long ... upshot of it all is - finish your degree. If military aviation is your passion, go for it! In spite of the tough times, do 20! The experience is not something you could buy for any price! Retire around age 45 and you're positioned very well to pursue your next great passion!

There is a quote floating around out there, I can't recall it exactly, but the gist is to live life to the fullest and slide across the finish line totally used up and spent ... go for it!

 

[Patch]

I'm a 20 year old college junior w/ commercial and starting my CMEL with an aeronautical science degree (worthless). After school I'm going to commission as an officer in the military with an aviation contract, and I intend to use the GI bill to get some graduate work done.

My question is... what avenues should I pursue to be making good $$$? I haven't been getting the most amazing grades in school (around a 3.0, lack of effort) but I was hoping future military service could offset that and get me into a good graduate school (law or MBA). I point to a friend who is a military pilot and doing graduate work at the same time (at a top 5 MBA biz school).

I don't want to be an airline pilot unless I have to, and my peers are worthless when it comes to asking for advice. That is one of the reasons I ask it here... I know there are alot of professionals...

First, dump the "lack of effort." Right now you're looking at far rocks when you should be looking at near rocks. What stipulations does your aviation contract entail? Nothing is ever guaranteed.

Your primary concern right now should be making it through commissioning, TBS, API, flight school, etc. None of which will stomach a "lack of effort" through any part.

 

[ESbuilder]

What stipulations does your aviation contract entail? Nothing is ever guaranteed.

That so long as I get commissioned, complete TBS then I'll go to PCola. If I did make it that far I would probably get anthro'd out of anything single seat (not that it would bother me)

If I lost my aviation contract then I would switch to ground, and try my hardest to get infantry or a ground intel / humint MOS (with aspirations of commanding a s/s or reconaissance platoon)

Your primary concern right now should be making it through commissioning, TBS, API, flight school, etc. None of which will stomach a "lack of effort" through any part.

Up until now I've been able to do well on natural talent, but I know I won't be able to in the future

 

[jshawley]

OK, ES: Lissen UP! (I've always had the ol' drill instructor fantasy )

Seriously, I might (just might) have some advice: First, Cap'n Ron: what he said. Second, Greg: what he said too. In fact, just about all of 'em are giving good advice.

The great depression of '75 (it's a recession if you lose your job; it's a depression if I lose my job) nudged me into the nuclear Navy, surface.

Prior to Nuclear Power School, back then, students were administered a diagnostic test to see whether they needed the three-week or six-week pre-school brush-up. It had been five years since I had (just barely) graduated H.S. and here was the word problem: "PO Jones is at the base bowling alley and he bowls his 16-pound ball down the alley at xxft/min. How much momentum does the bowling ball have?" Of course, everybody knows that the formula for momentum is P=MV. NOT.

I busted my hump both at NPS and at Prototype, graduating from both in the upper third of the class. I was even offered the opportunity to go "NESEP", the "mustang" enlisted-to-officer program for nukes. I often look back with regret that I demurred. I was not willing to apply the necessary effort. Shame on me. I also regret not remaining in the Navy Reserve after separating in '81.

So, the first "lissen up!" here: Don't quit applying yourself! Bust your hump. But a caveat: Don't sacrifice your "life", or (especially) your wife's and children's lives for your work.

Second "lissen up!" Apply yourself! 'Nuff said.

BTW, Ens. Vadala, my math instructor had a real horror story about his OCS experiences in Pensacola (was that where college grads went?) where, while traipsing through the swamps with his 40lb pack (and bulldog-like Marine DI ripping his ear off with his yelling), tripping, and while falling face down into the mud, finding himself face-to-face with the same DI, now ripping his eyeballs out with his yelling at him to get his [butt] up and moveitmoveitmoveit. Ah, the good old days...

So, a word of advice: You will get yelled at. Plan on it. You won't be able to do anything right. Plan on it. The DI will rip your heart out and stuff it back in, just for sadistic giggles. Count on it. But you will, in the end be proud you did it. I know; and so do Cap'n Ron, and Greg, and a host of others whose service was much more meaningful to this nation than my piddly little bit. So with that, I too want to thank you for your future service.

Jim

 

[ESbuilder]

BTW, Ens. Vadala, my math instructor had a real horror story about his OCS experiences in Pensacola (was that where college grads went?) where, while traipsing through the swamps with his 40lb pack (and bulldog-like Marine DI ripping his ear off with his yelling), tripping, and while falling face down into the mud, finding himself face-to-face with the same DI, now ripping his eyeballs out with his yelling at him to get his [butt] up and moveitmoveitmoveit. Ah, the good old days...

Reminds me of when another candidate and I were in the head trying to... you know.....

Then the company GySgt runs in and starts yelling at us while were sitting down trying to do our business... I didn't know whether to laugh or cry so I just bit my tounge as hard as I could (I was at PLC last summer... don't know if I mentioned that)

 

[Steve]

If you make it Pensacola, drop me a PM. I could hook you up with some local EAA types (active and retired AF/Navy).

That so long as I get commissioned, complete TBS then I'll go to PCola. If I did make it that far I would probably get anthro'd out of anything single seat (not that it would bother me)

 

[Dwight B. Van Zanen]

A lot of comments about the MBA here. Your OP did not say what you wanted to do with your life. Earning lots of bucks is some kind of ambition, but will not result in a life you will actually enjoy. Ask yourself some questions:

1. Do you like work? Would you enjoy working 60-80-100 hours/week? Some places expect that of the junior guys, and when you become a senior guy it may still be expected to set the right example.

2. If the above answer is yes, what would you want to be doing for those 80 hour weeks? If half your life is at work, it ought to be something you like doing. If you hate the work but like the money, you are still miserable.

3. How much money is enough? Will you be content with a home in a suburban subdivision, or are you after the downtown condo with a doorman? If the former, you have a lot of options. If the latter, you need to be in the right industry, good at what you do, lucky, and/or know the boss very well (dad? uncle?)

I am retired now, and comfortable. Enjoyed my career, but never made any really big money working. The "enjoyed" part was important to me, more important than the money. Think it through now, not after you have invested 20 years into a career you decide you need to dump for something else. And the idea that, "the average worker changes career about every 5 years" is not really good advice. You need to be able to grow yourself as things change, but most of the same industries are still here that were here 20-40 years ago. People may change positions and employers, but if you are not building from past experience you are always starting over - which does not move you ahead very far. My $.02.