Question for current PP students.

[Henning]

This is for those of you training in a plane with a Garmin system OTHER THAN the new GTN-650/750 series.

The 72hr to PP thread got me thinking, the biggest change in aviation between the time I trained where the average would have been very close to 40, was the introduction of the Garmin GNS series radios, whigh I consider a construct sent straight from hell. Not because the 'magenta line' issue, but because it has the most idiotically maddening interface of operational time critical navigation equipment I have ever come across; 'spin push spin spin spin spin push spin spin push push DAMNIT!....'

Now I look at the numbers and I look at the fact that it was 30-40hrs learning for just the stupid GNS radio interface to go beyond just setting frequencies manually.

So what I'm wondering is how the instructors are going about introducing and using the advanced functions, and if you are studying the unit and all the functions outside the plane, and what learning resources you are using if you are, (videos, interactive CD or website, simulators...). Also if you have comments on how that's working out for you, that's really what I'm after.

 

[Shawn]

My trainer was a G1000 kinda by accident due to avaiability...and I just didn't know any better. My CFI knew the basics, but I did a lot of online research on my own and we both would try and learn new things about the G1000 above the basic VFR flight needs every chance we got. I spent one day for 4 hours on the ground with the manual just spinning knobs. Still got my PPL in the mid 40's on hours.

If you don't know what life was like before the technology, I could see how a newbie would have a quicker time adapting.

Out on my boat teaching when people to wakeboard, I have a much higher success and get people up quicker that have never been behind a boat vs those that have waterskied before. They have to unlearn their habits before they can learn to wakeboard.

 

[eetrojan]

I’m not a current PP student, but earned my license about 18 months ago, so I’ll go ahead and answer.

Several of our planes had GNS 430s, but we only use them as radios and as nav radio sources for the round-dial VORs or the HSI on the EFIS. We didn’t use them at all for GPS navigation during the vast majority of training.

Toward the end of my training (i.e. the last 4-5 flights), and while specifically getting ready for the practical test, my instructor taught me to use the “Direct-To” button and to spin/press the little/big knob in case the DPE wanted me to use it.

Along the way though, I self-studied the GNS 430 on my own a bit. Using the official PDF manual and the simulator for my PC, I taught myself to enter a point to point flightplan, reverse it, store it, recall it, zoom the map, etc.

I’m not even sure the CFI’s know it very well. I knew enough about the GNS 430’s menus to manually dim it for my night flight, and I forgot to reset it. That resulted in a formal squawk about it being unreadable. I guess I should have changed it back. Oops.

 

[Lachlan]

I'm traning in 172 models with G430/530 units. Seems relatively simple to me. We don't actually use it much, though, as I prefer learning the old school basics for navigation and getting really good at the traditional methods of radio nav. I get my dials and frequencies all set and see if I'm right by cross checking it against the Garmin. I prefer older stuff to the shiny new "do it for you" electronics.

 

[AggieMike88]

Several of our planes had GNS 430s, but we only use them as radios and as nav radio sources for the round-dial VORs or the HSI on the EFIS. We didn’t use them at all for GPS navigation during the vast majority of training.

Toward the end of my training (i.e. the last 4-5 flights), and while specifically getting ready for the practical test, my instructor taught me to use the “Direct-To” button and to spin/press the little/big knob in case the DPE wanted me to use it.

Along the way though, I self-studied the GNS 430 on my own a bit. Using the official PDF manual and the simulator for my PC, I taught myself to enter a point to point flightplan, reverse it, store it, recall it, zoom the map, etc.

That describes me back in 2010 and a DA20-C1.

The instructor would reference the traffic screen (we had the GTX-330 can could display the TIS-B info) but I think that caused more distraction for both of us since he would mistake our radar shadow as an impending collision.

If the aircraft has it, then it has it. But it's up to the instructor to not clutter up the lessons with knobology that isn't required for the day's activities. Perhaps schedule an extra lesson or two after the PPL is awarded to cover the additional magic inside the box.

 

[Henning]

I’m not a current PP student, but earned my license about 18 months ago, so I’ll go ahead and answer.

Several of our planes had GNS 430s, but we only use them as radios and as nav radio sources for the round-dial VORs or the HSI on the EFIS. We didn’t use them at all for GPS navigation during the vast majority of training.

Toward the end of my training (i.e. the last 4-5 flights), and while specifically getting ready for the practical test, my instructor taught me to use the “Direct-To” button and to spin/press the little/big knob in case the DPE wanted me to use it.

Along the way though, I self-studied the GNS 430 on my own a bit. Using the official PDF manual and the simulator for my PC, I taught myself to enter a point to point flightplan, reverse it, store it, recall it, zoom the map, etc.

I’m not even sure the CFI’s know it very well. I knew enough about the GNS 430’s menus to manually dim it for my night flight, and I forgot to reset it. That resulted in a formal squawk about it being unreadable. I guess I should have changed it back. Oops.

Oh FMD on the dimming, you and me both, I used to set my phone on the 430 bezel it was so annoyingly bright on auto. One time I forgot to undim it and fired up the next day. Had to walk through the manual procedure blind until the brightness came up to be able to read the screen. That it does not recycle to default sensor drive on start up is another design fault IMO. I hated buying the 430W because I knew better was coming because I got the Garmin rep to admit "how will we get people to buy our next product if we add Victor Airways?" when I pressed him about that gross design failure and that they 'added it to the 1000, why not the 430/530' in front of a bunch of people at OSH. But I needed something about 6 months before they announced the GTN radios so I got it because I could get a full value trade back on the upgrade, otherwise I would have got the 400W. The shop owner laughed when I had a one year buyback/upgrade put in the contract, "I don't think they're coming up with anything, but sure, I'll make that deal."

 

[RobertSubnet]

So what I'm wondering is how the instructors are going about introducing and using the advanced functions, and if you are studying the unit and all the functions outside the plane, and what learning resources you are using if you are, (videos, interactive CD or website, simulators...). Also if you have comments on how that's working out for you, that's really what I'm after.

I have not yet touched a GNS unit. I am fortunate that we mostly use KX-135s or something similar. Only 14 hours of flight time thus far so I cannot really answer your question. However one of our steam gauge aircraft has a Garmin GNS and I have asked my instructor for some training on the unit after I progress a little further.

...the 'magenta line' issue

What is the magenta line issue?

 

[Henning]

I have not yet touched a GNS unit. I am fortunate that we mostly use KX-135s or something similar. Only 14 hours of flight time thus far so I cannot really answer your question. However one of our steam gauge aircraft has a Garmin GNS and I have asked my instructor for some training on the unit after I progress a little further.



What is the magenta line issue?

"Children of the Magenta Line" i.e. those who don't navigate by any other means but GPS 'following the magenta line'. It's really kinda a bunch of hooey like tail wheels make you a better pilot. Every VFR pilot should be able to lose all electronics in a plane and navigate the plane to a runway, or even to their destination, just by looking at the sectional, and the ground, and I have yet to meet a rated PP who was not able to manage just that.

However to manage that is typically not the most fuel, or time, efficient routing. If you are bee bopping around building time and taking in the sights, then this is actually the preferred method, 'let's go look at that over there". But if you are going from place to place and are budget limited, to not follow the magenta line is foolish. It's not just because land mark to land mark typically isn't going to be straight, but when you are in 'unfamiliar territory' the dips down to read water towers use fuel. I did a lot of those back in the day.

 

[Henning]

"I've never been lost, but I have been temporarily misplaced."

 

[James331]

Poor buggers should be learning in a 7AC or J3. Use a handheld for the electric navigation part.

 

[mkosmo]

Hmm, when I'm flying at night and set the 430 to dim as can be, she's back in auto on the next flight. My software revision is from '07, though.

 

[Henning]

Hmm, when I'm flying at night and set the 430 to dim as can be, she's back in auto on the next flight. My software revision is from '07, though.

Why would they have changed it from anything but?

 

[mkosmo]

Why would they have changed it from anything but?

No idea. That's why I find those stories so odd. Any other behavior (unless somehow explicitly locked out with a jumper) would seem insane. Sometimes I just wish it would go even dimmer at night, or auto worked as advertised.

 

[jordane93]

I really only teach my students how to go direct to a fix, VOR, airport, etc. I don't really show my students the advanced functions of the G1000 or 430.

 

[Henning]

I really only teach my students how to go direct to a fix, VOR, airport, etc. I don't really show my students the advanced functions of the G1000 or 430.

How many of them seem to take the initiative to learn and start using the advanced functions on their own, like selecting the frequency from the page rather than dialing it in?

 

[jordane93]

How many of them seem to take the initiative to learn and start using the advanced functions on their own?

I give my students a G1000 simulator for their computer and let them play around with it if they like. Some ask more in depth questions but most just care about how to go direct to a destination, VOR, etc.

 

[Henning]

I give my students a G1000 simulator for their computer and let them play around with it if they like. Some ask more in depth questions but most just care about how to go direct to a destination, VOR, etc.

So from where do they get their frequencies to dial in? Are they using a sectional?

 

[jesse]

This is for those of you training in a plane with a Garmin system OTHER THAN the new GTN-650/750 series.

The 72hr to PP thread got me thinking, the biggest change in aviation between the time I trained where the average would have been very close to 40, was the introduction of the Garmin GNS series radios, whigh I consider a construct sent straight from hell. Not because the 'magenta line' issue, but because it has the most idiotically maddening interface of operational time critical navigation equipment I have ever come across; 'spin push spin spin spin spin push spin spin push push DAMNIT!....'

Now I look at the numbers and I look at the fact that it was 30-40hrs learning for just the stupid GNS radio interface to go beyond just setting frequencies manually.

So what I'm wondering is how the instructors are going about introducing and using the advanced functions, and if you are studying the unit and all the functions outside the plane, and what learning resources you are using if you are, (videos, interactive CD or website, simulators...). Also if you have comments on how that's working out for you, that's really what I'm after.

Nearly all of the private students I've done have Garmin 430s on board. It doesn't cost us ANY additional hours in training. It takes no time to each time how to tune frequencies and adjust the volume and that's the only thing we cover really until cross country training begins.

Ultimately I teach private students how to run the com portion, the vor portion, how to use direct to, how to look at frequencies on it, how to use NRST, and how to get back to the map screen from any screen.

So, to sum it up, the 430 is not at fault. It's not hard at all to teach it at the private level. Instrument ratings I almost always knock out very close to the 40 hours so it's certainly not holding the back there either.

 

[jordane93]

So from where do they get their frequencies to dial in? Are they using a sectional?

Correct. Sectional or TAC

 

[Henning]

Correct. Sectional or TAC

So from what you and Jessie are telling me, instruction really hasn't been affected by them because you use them only in simple function. I think I figured out my issue with the 72 hour number, it is given as an average rather than as mean. I can see average being 72 because there are 120hr students, but I would bet the mean is ~50 or less given 141 lower mins.

 

[Stearman]

Radios? What are these radios you speak of?

But in all seriousness, students should be trained how to set frequencies. Anything else can be done on their own time. The CFI is being paid to teach you how to fly, not use a GNS or whatever. It's not necessary for flight.

Just my 2c...

 

[fiveoboy01]

Nearly all of the private students I've done have Garmin 430s on board. It doesn't cost us ANY additional hours in training. It takes no time to each time how to tune frequencies and adjust the volume and that's the only thing we cover really until cross country training begins.

Ultimately I teach private students how to run the com portion, the vor portion, how to use direct to, how to look at frequencies on it, how to use NRST, and how to get back to the map screen from any screen.

So, to sum it up, the 430 is not at fault. It's not hard at all to teach it at the private level. Instrument ratings I almost always knock out very close to the 40 hours so it's certainly not holding the back there either.

This. If it takes 30 extra hours of training to learn the 430W, someone's doing it wrong, or someone is stupid. And I'm talking for IFR use. PP use, way way less time to learn it.

Additionally, Garmin offers their simulator which you can play with at home for free. It emulates the real thing quite nicely.

 

[Shawn]

students should be trained how to set frequencies. Anything else can be done on their own time. The CFI is being paid to teach you how to fly, not use a GNS or whatever. It's not necessary for flight.

Disagree...my PPL DPE wanted me to demonstrate how to use "all available resources" in the cockpit...which included direct to enter enter among all other navigation methods.

If it is in the plane...learn it.

 

[rbridges]

Sorry to hedge into your student thread, but my experience was similar to an earlier response. My cfi never let me use it except as a nav/com.

 

[mkosmo]

Sorry to hedge into your student thread, but my experience was similar to an earlier response. My cfi never let me use it except as a nav/com.

I'm starting to get curious... Is there a correlation between instructor age and GPS usage in primary? My instructor was young and taught me some of it and let me use it. On my student XCs, it was my call not to use it.

The remainder of my 430 knowledge is self taught using the manuals, simulators, and the real deal.

 

[fiveoboy01]

I'm starting to get curious... Is there a correlation between instructor age and GPS usage in primary?

I think there is. Not in all cases, but definitely in some.

I had talked in another thread about my double-I refusing to do GPS approaches even though my airplane was fully equipped to do them.

Last week I overheard someone blabbing on and on about GPS and how real pilots use the VORs to navigate.

Yeah, ok then. I've not heard a good justification for it really. Lots of people whine about the magenta line, but let em. Some subsets of people see technology as evil. Go ahead and spin that OBS. I will look at the map and see where I'm at.

 

[mkosmo]

I think there is. Not in all cases, but definitely in some.

I had talked in another thread about my double-I refusing to do GPS approaches even though my airplane was fully equipped to do them.

Last week I overheard someone blabbing on and on about GPS and how real pilots use the VORs to navigate.

Yeah, ok then. I've not heard a good justification for it really. Lots of people whine about the magenta line, but let em. Some subsets of people see technology as evil. Go ahead and spin that OBS. I will look at the map and see where I'm at.

What was your CFII going to say when the DPE threw a GPS approach at you and you bombed it? We ought to know everything available to us in the aircraft, not just a personal subset. Any of it can fail, so knowing a viable fallback is always a good thing!

Like you said, some people have odd perspectives, but we humans are prone to be stubborn

 

[fiveoboy01]

He might say "I'm glad you taught yourself GPS approaches while flying with your safety pilot".

 

[txflyer]

I was certificated in 1975 after about 40 hours in a Piper 140.

I've owned the 430W for five years ongoing and am still mastering it.

It was the shiznet when it first came out, but I agree it's a button pushing nightmare. The lack of a nearest button ... you have to turn the knob three times to get to the nearest page is ****ing retarded.

 

[Shawn]

What was your CFII going to say when the DPE threw a GPS approach at you and you bombed it? We ought to know everything available to us in the aircraft, not just a personal subset

I know this is getting off topic from the original PPL question...But a pilot I know had a CFII that taught him purely old school on how to train for his IFR even though his plane had full glass, which is all fine and dandy...except the poor guy busted his IFR Check Ride on the DP of his FIRST takeoff because he had no idea how to use and properly set up the equipment on board as requested by the DPE. He had to get a new CFII that could teach him how to fly HIS plane as equipped.

Not letting a PPL student use Foreflight or an EFB is one thing...not training them on at least the basic functionality of something like a 430 that is installed in the plane is sending them out unprepared in my book.

 

[mkosmo]

I was certificated in 1975 after about 40 hours in a Piper 140.

I've owned the 430W for five years ongoing and am still mastering it.

It was the shiznet when it first came out, but I agree it's a button pushing nightmare. The lack of a nearest button ... you have to turn the knob three times to get to the nearest page is ****ing retarded.

I just quickly spin it right half a turn and there it is no matter where I was. I'm pretty sure that's why the NRST chapter is full right.

 

[Shawn]

I just quickly spin it right half a turn and there it is no matter where I was. I'm pretty sure that's why the NRST chapter is full right.

I was told that was by design...in an emergency just spin hard and you will wind up on the NRST page as opposed to fumbling through a menu.