Question for CFIs

[Irish_Armada]

Have you ever refused to sign off on a student to solo? If so, why? And do you know what ended up happening to that student? I ask because I would like to instruct eventually and the solo sign off makes me most nervous at this point (I assume that could change once I'm in the cockpit instructing...)

 

[poadeleted20]

Have you ever refused to sign off on a student to solo?

Yes.

If so, why?

In one case, it was because his English as a second language tended to desert him in times like this of stress. In another case, it was because he could not be trusted to obey the rules if he thought nobody could see what he was doing or it was inconvenient. In another case, it was because he just couldn't get his hands, feet, and brain to work together well enough to control the plane adequately.

And do you know what ended up happening to that student?

Two never came back. One went to the other flight school across the field and had the same problem.

I ask because I would like to instruct eventually and the solo sign off makes me most nervous at this point (I assume that could change once I'm in the cockpit instructing...)

When the FAA gives you that CFI ticket, they are trusting your judgment to not release for solo those who can't do it safely. It's just part of the job. That said, I was a lot more apprehensive about the first few I sent out solo than those I sent later on -- you do learn to trust your own judgment more and more as your you gain instructing experience.

 

[Captain]

I've never 'refused' to sign someone off. I just didn't sign till I was comfortable. If the student is honest they know they're not ready either.

With that said, the risk associated with signing students off (especially cross countries) is like prostrate cancer...I knew it's bad so I just tried not to think about it.

 

[Gerald]

Have you ever refused to sign off on a student to solo? If so, why? And do you know what ended up happening to that student? I ask because I would like to instruct eventually and the solo sign off makes me most nervous at this point (I assume that could change once I'm in the cockpit instructing...)

I never sign one off until the outcome is never in doubt in my mind. Also the solo endorsement will have restrictions like day time, wind speed, viz, ceiling, etc. i did have one student one time that I could not get to a level that I tought he would be safe, I told him I was uncomfortable with his skills and variability to addressing new situations, I said it would be better that he find another instructor to determine if he could do better with someone else. If you start instructing this will become natural for you.

 

[warthog1984]

I've never 'refused' to sign someone off. I just didn't sign till I was comfortable. If the student is honest they know they're not ready either.

The tricky part is being honest with yourself and the student. If they need a little more work, be specific and upfront. DON'T string them along or stick with a vague "you need a little more polish" lesson after lesson. At the same time, even if something gives you pause, give the student a chance to explain or give their side of the story.

Some students will need the bowling speech, but it shouldn't be unexpected or the first serious conversation you have with them.

 

[Captain]

The tricky part is being honest with yourself and the student. If they need a little more work, be specific and upfront. DON'T string them along or stick with a vague "you need a little more polish" lesson after lesson. At the same time, even if something gives you pause, give the student a chance to explain or give their side of the story.

Some students will need the bowling speech, but it shouldn't be unexpected or the first serious conversation you have with them.

I agree. I always told them upfront what I needed to see to sign them off. As I recall for solo it was typically three good (no help from me) in a row. Obviously in the back of my mind I'm looking for gut check things like radios, confidence and proper reaction to abnormal stuff. If any of that was an issue we'd talk about it. It was never an issue though. Students aren't stupid and 99% of them were harder on themselves than I was.

 

[brcase]

I have never had anyone I just refused to sign off. I have told a number of students that based on my evaluation it was going to be challenging and require a higher than average number of hours to solo. I also suggest they may want to get an evaluation from another instructor. Most of these students usually quickly decide to discontinue training. A few have continued on to get their ratings.

As a CFI you will learn pretty quickly to estimate at what rate a student will likely progress.

Brian

 

[LDJones]

Never had to refuse a sign off, but some took much longer than others. My standard is pretty simple. I have to be confident they:
1) Won't hurt themselves;
2) Won't hurt the airplane; and
3) Won't violate any regs.

After you've instructed awhile it's pretty obvious when they're ready. When you've been sitting on your hands for the last several touch and goes, they're acting in control with confidence and making appropriate adjustments/recoveries from their mistakes, they're ready.

The only student I felt a bit nervous about cutting loose was my own son. His flying skills were great, but I knew I had his mother to answer to if anything went haywire! It didn't.

 

[BillTIZ]

There are students I would not solo. Two were asked to leave the club and find another hobby. Others know that they are perpetual students, others have not figured that out yet. But as a club, they like coming out and getting some air time with other pilots.

 

[Jaybird180]

There are students I would not solo. Two were asked to leave the club and find another hobby. Others know that they are perpetual students, others have not figured that out yet. But as a club, they like coming out and getting some air time with other pilots.

I seriously doubt I could be a perpetual student. I found my time with my instructors a bit like a dance, sometimes the want to see more, sometimes I'd want to see more; but I always had the end goal in mind.

I had the benefit for my young CFI of 141 stage checks; it wasnt all on him to make the sign off decision. I had to pass muster with a senior CFI or the Chief and they always in the back office stayed up on student progress and I thank them for that part that I didnt see.

Thanks Marcel. Thanks Matt.

 

[James331]

Once, just was always too far behind the aircraft and his stick and rudder skills were not up to the task.

I recommended another instructor who has much more experience with foreign students, also recommended he not try to solo in a tailwheel, ended up soloing and getting his ticket in a 172.

 

[MikeELP]

Once.

As with Cap'n Ron above, it was an ESL student that just could not or would not work on his English to a point where I was comfortable turning him loose into the pattern by himself. Unfortunate. Very nice guy...very smart, flew the airplane well.

Mike

 

[ARFlyer]

I've refused to solo or even fly with one student. The student was obviously autistic and had somehow acquired a medical. He was a danger to himself and others even with me in the aircraft. To those who say it's not PC for me to diagnose a student with a valid medical; I work with autistic Scouts and I dated a girl on the spectrum.

I delayed signing off a student the other day in front of his family. He showed some bad airmanship and when I corrected him, he decided to throw a fit. He decided to get back at me and himself by making all kinds of mistakes. I told him on the ground to control his emotions and he still flew like crap. I told him that I didn't trust his decision making or his emotional state and would delay signing him off.

Sometimes flying with 18 year olds makes me want to scream and I'm only 23!

 

[jesse]

I've refused to solo or even fly with one student. The student was obviously autistic and had somehow acquired a medical. He was a danger to himself and others even with me in the aircraft. To those who say it's not PC for me to diagnose a student with a valid medical; I work with autistic Scouts and I dated a girl on the spectrum.

I delayed signing off a student the other day in front of his family. He showed some bad airmanship and when I corrected him, he decided to throw a fit. He decided to get back at me and himself by making all kinds of mistakes. I told him on the ground to control his emotions and he still flew like crap. I told him that I didn't trust his decision making or his emotional state and would delay signing him off.

Sometimes flying with 18 year olds makes me want to scream and I'm only 23!

I find that "we're returning to the field immediately, the lesson is terminated." Once on the ground follow up with "you wasted my time today along with your parents money. The next time you waste it you can find another instructor. You want to be a professional pilot, if you repeat what you did today that's not going to happen." Then get out of the airplane and just leave them sitting there to be an incredibly effective way to make a teenager grow up a few years

 

[jnmeade]

Like several above, I've never refused to sign off a student but one never got to where it was an issue due to piloting skill deficits. At the same time, I've not been in the position of several who had to deal with language issues nor have I ever had a student who wouldn't attempt to comply with instructions or who had a bad attitude, so in that regard I am probably fortunate.
As has been implied, the situation is not like it was in the military in WWII where a student was expected to progress according to a certain time table. Student, instructor and airplane scheduling issues for most of us are such that there is not a deadline or other time when a student has to solo. It's when the student is ready and in my experience the CFI controls the time table on that.
If I'd had to instruct to a time table, there are a few who would not have made it.

 

[TommyG]

I've refused to solo or even fly with one student. The student was obviously autistic and had somehow acquired a medical. He was a danger to himself and others even with me in the aircraft. To those who say it's not PC for me to diagnose a student with a valid medical; I work with autistic Scouts and I dated a girl on the spectrum.

I delayed signing off a student the other day in front of his family. He showed some bad airmanship and when I corrected him, he decided to throw a fit. He decided to get back at me and himself by making all kinds of mistakes. I told him on the ground to control his emotions and he still flew like crap. I told him that I didn't trust his decision making or his emotional state and would delay signing him off.

Sometimes flying with 18 year olds makes me want to scream and I'm only 23!

That's why I have never told a student when I am going to sign them off to solo. It takes too much of their focus away, and then they want to invite family for a big celebration. They are there to fly and learn to fly.

 

[ARFlyer]

That's why I have never told a student when I am going to sign them off to solo. It takes too much of their focus away, and then they want to invite family for a big celebration. They are there to fly and learn to fly.

Well since we are 141 we are not allowed to have surprise solo flights. The students know weeks in advance what day they will "solo" since there is a solo lesson. Plus they are not allowed to solo until after they past a solo stage check.

So their whole family shows up and it becomes a event on its own. My first solo guy had his family fly down in their Citation. I had around 20-30 people watching him solo. I've seen mothers try to run after their kids when ever the plane slightly wiggles on landing.

 

[warthog1984]

I've refused to solo or even fly with one student. The student was obviously autistic and had somehow acquired a medical. He was a danger to himself and others even with me in the aircraft.

So, in other words, based on your vast experience at age 23 you are capable of second-guessing a credentialed AME and evaluating a person as a "danger to others" even before seeing him fly? Based purely on the fact that you felt he was autistic?

 

[TommyG]

Well since we are 141 we are not allowed to have surprise solo flights. The students know weeks in advance what day they will "solo" since there is a solo lesson. Plus they are not allowed to solo until after they past a solo stage check.

So their whole family shows up and it becomes a event on its own. My first solo guy had his family fly down in their Citation. I had around 20-30 people watching him solo. I've seen mothers try to run after their kids when ever the plane slightly wiggles on landing.

I could only imagine!!!!

 

[flyingron]

When the FAA gives you that CFI ticket, they are trusting your judgment to not release for solo those who can't do it safely. It's just part of the job.

Yep, the inspector from the FSDO here tells new applicants that specifically and offers to help "Bob Hoover" (his exact term) anybody the instructor decides ought not to be flying.

I was flying in the back seat with Margy's instructor once (I think I was going out to retrieve my plane from maintenance) while he was giving training to a student who just wouldn't listen to anything he was telling him. As soon as the student was out of earshot he turns to us and says "See what you have to put up with when you're a flight instructor."

I've know of students who have gotten lost on every crosscountry they embarked on (and that was after remedial training with a different instructor). I think they realized that perhaps flying was probably not for them.

My instructor (who was my roommate a the time) had a odd fellow. You could instruct him and he'd follow along perfectly and you could quiz him but he'd go out the next flight and do something completely different. It was driving Dale crazy and finally on one issue which was radio work (mine, being a Ham radio operator from the age of 14 was pretty good), Dale just through up his hands and said "Ron, see if you can help him." So we sat there playing, sample aircraft around our dining room table pushing a penny around a sectional and he is giving just absolutely perfect radio calls from the taxi out at our class D field to overflying his destination field, calling for airport advisories, entering the pattern making position reports, he's got it nailed. Dale comes by and says Great, and signs the guy off for his checkride. He goes out on the ride and makes an five mile straight-in approach to an uncontrolled field making radio calls. Where on earth in any of his training was there any such approaches. I don't know if he ever did get his license, I think Dale dumped him on another instructor at that point.

 

[Dead Stick]

I have refused to renew the solo privileges of a student, in fact, I blackballed his sorry arse, and went to the FAA over him. A CFI buddy of mine, who was moving out of the area, called me up and asked me if I would take over his student. The kid was a total screw up from the word go. He was in the solo XC phase of his training and got a little upset when I just wouldn't sign him off for a XC flight without ever flying with him previously. I insisted that we go up so that I could get a feeling for how he flew. He flew the airplane just fine and his flight planning was spot on. So I signed him off for a XC flight and it went downhill from there. Before the next 24 hours was over, I had called the Sheriff in a couple of counties to ask them if they would mind driving out to the airport to see if his airplane happened to be there. We knew he was OK because he called his wife and said that he wouldn't be flying home until "tomorrow afternoon". We finally found him at some uncontrolled airport in Nevada - he decided he wanted to get dinner and do some gambling. I told him not to do anything and to stay put. He flew home anyway. He was totally oblivious to the rules and regulations. Before it was over the FAA was on his case. What a total train wreck. A few days after all of this, he called me up and wanted me to renew his solo sign off and sign him off for another XC flight. The rest of our short conversation did not go well.

 

[ARFlyer]

We finally found him at some uncontrolled airport in Nevada - he decided he wanted to get dinner and do some gambling. I told him not to do anything and to stay put. He flew home anyway. He was totally oblivious to the rules and regulations. Before it was over the FAA was on his case. What a total train wreck. A few days after all of this, he called me up and wanted me to renew his solo sign off and sign him off for another XC flight. The rest of our short conversation did not go well.

My grandfather did something similar during his training. He wanted to check on the duck population at his hunting lease. So he grabbed a plane and decided to fly a x/c with his solo endorsement. Well he had yet to receive any instruction on x/c flying. He navigated by roads and water towers. He'd circle a town and find the name on the water tower and correlate it to how he drove to his duck blind. Since this was in then early 80s his instructor had no way off contacting him. He said he remembers the instructor standing on the ramp steaming mad. After a good ass chewing he told my grandfather he was proud of his navigation skills.

 

[poadeleted20]

...I just wouldn't sign him off for a XC flight without ever flying with him previously. I insisted that we go up so that I could get a feeling for how he flew.

I would point out that when you sign the 61.93(c)(2)(ii) endorsement in a Student Pilot's logbook, someone else has already signed for their skills to fly that make/model solo and to fly cross-country solo in that category of aircraft. All you are signing is "that the student's preflight planning and preparation is correct and that the student is prepared to make the flight safely under the known conditions." The FAA does not expect an instructor to actually fly with a Student Pilot before signing that flight planning endorsement, and I've signed plenty of them without having done more than review their planning and ask them some pertinent questions about the contemplated flight.

Of course, if you have some reservations about that Student's ability based on information other than the planning material presented, you should not sign that endorsement, but that's another story entirely.

 

[Dead Stick]

I would point out that when you sign the 61.93(c)(2)(ii) endorsement in a Student Pilot's logbook, someone else has already signed for their skills to fly that make/model solo and to fly cross-country solo in that category of aircraft. All you are signing is The FAA does not expect an instructor to actually fly with a Student Pilot before signing that flight planning endorsement, and I've signed plenty of them without having done more than review their planning and ask them some pertinent questions about the contemplated flight.

Of course, if you have some reservations about that Student's ability based on information other than the planning material presented, you should not sign that endorsement, but that's another story entirely.

Ron, I understand that. I also make it a point to never sign off a student to do anything that I am not 100% confident in their ability to accomplish. Unless I have flown with that student how can I attest that "that the student's preflight planning and preparation is correct and that the student is prepared to make the flight safely under the known conditions." If I haven't flown with the student or if I don't have a first hand knowledge of the student's CFI and how demanding s/he is I'm not signing anything without a flight to see for myself.

 

[poadeleted20]

Ron, I understand that. I also make it a point to never sign off a student to do anything that I am not 100% confident in their ability to accomplish. Unless I have flown with that student how can I attest that "that the student's preflight planning and preparation is correct and that the student is prepared to make the flight safely under the known conditions." If I haven't flown with the student or if I don't have a first hand knowledge of the student's CFI and how demanding s/he is I'm not signing anything without a flight to see for myself.

You are certainly within your rights to take that position, but it is not required by any published interpretation of that regulation, not consistent with any FAA-stated expectations, and not consistent with what the vast majority of flight instructors actually do. Further, by your interpretation, unless you have actually flown that route with that Student under the conditions known to exist at that time, you couldn't sign that endorsement, and once you'd done that, the conditions would no longer exist for the subsequent solo flight.

 

[Dead Stick]

You are certainly within your rights to take that position, but it is not required by any published interpretation of that regulation, not consistent with any FAA-stated expectations, and not consistent with what the vast majority of flight instructors actually do. Further, by your interpretation, unless you have actually flown that route with that Student under the conditions known to exist at that time, you couldn't sign that endorsement, and once you'd done that, the conditions would no longer exist for the subsequent solo flight.

I understand that, never the less, I feel that the way I chose to handle circumstances like this has saved my personal bacon on more than one occasion over the past 40+ years that I've been an active CFI.

 

[ChrisK]

I have had other instructors sign off on my xc plan when my primary instructor was unavailable; however, more often than not, my instructor asked them to. If you were assuming total responsibility of a student from another instructor that is one thing, but if instructors refused to sign off on my xc planning because they had never flown with me, I would have had to cancel a couple cross countries.

 

[N801BH]

I never sign one off until the outcome is never in doubt in my mind. Also the solo endorsement will have restrictions like day time, wind speed, viz, ceiling, etc. i did have one student one time that I could not get to a level that I tought he would be safe, I told him I was uncomfortable with his skills and variability to addressing new situations, I said it would be better that he find another instructor to determine if he could do better with someone else. If you start instructing this will become natural for you.

First post.....

Welcome to POA....

 

[MikeELP]

You are certainly within your rights to take that position, but it is not required by any published interpretation of that regulation, not consistent with any FAA-stated expectations, and not consistent with what the vast majority of flight instructors actually do. Further, by your interpretation, unless you have actually flown that route with that Student under the conditions known to exist at that time, you couldn't sign that endorsement, and once you'd done that, the conditions would no longer exist for the subsequent solo flight.

As Dead Stick said...unless I personally know the student and/or the instructor, they will need to fly with me before I sign them off for an XC.

And FWIW...I have done it many times. But always with a call from the students primary CFI who asked me if I would take care of it. And I always knew both the student and the instructor. Whatever YOU may interpret the regs as saying...if my signature is in that students logbook to authorize his or her XC, it's going to be my butt on the line if something goes wrong.

And with that said....Ron, why not tell us the last time that you signed off another instructors private pilot student for a cross country??

Mike

 

[poadeleted20]

And with that said....Ron, why not tell us the last time that you signed off another instructors private pilot student for a cross country??

Couple of years ago when a Student Pilot on his first solo XC ended up at Salisbury MD instead of Georgetown DE. I called his instructor, and with her concurrence, I signed off his new planning from Salisbury back to his home airport in the DC area.

 

[Captain]

I understand that, never the less, I feel that the way I chose to handle circumstances like this has saved my personal bacon on more than one occasion over the past 40+ years that I've been an active CFI.

Time building? That would explain your position too.

 

[itsjames2011]

Some students will need the bowling speech, but it shouldn't be unexpected or the first serious conversation you have with them.

So I've gotta know what the bowling speech is, Google is lacking the answer.

 

[itsjames2011]

So I've gotta know what the bowling speech is, Google is lacking the answer.

Disregard, I found the answer in another thread...

 

[Dead Stick]

Time building? That would explain your position too.

FYI, I had my ATP and over 3000 hours before I got my CFI. It wasn't time building then and it isn't time building now. I instruct because I like to instruct. Oh, and by the way, I've got my own personal version of your map.



That's just the one for North America. I've got ones about like that for Europe, South America and the Pacific Rim as well. I've never needed to take advantage of my students to fill my logbook.

 

[Captain]

Well, that takes that reason off the table.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

I have only had two students that I had problems with for solo. One I inherited from another instructor. I was actually number 4 for him I think. When I picked him up his 90 day was about to expire. We flew and I was not impressed. Ended up pulling his solo authorization in the school planes, he came out on my day off and flew without authorization, totaled the airplane, insurance paid then went after him for damages. He then sued the school for providing inadequate instruction. Turned into a real S show. He agreed to drop his claim if the insurance co backed off trying to get him to pay.....then he comes back to me wanting to finish his training. He was actually surprised I wouldn't fly with him....

The other guy decided that a solo endorsement was his ticket to fly anywhere he wanted whenever he wanted. I revoked his endorsement and stopped flying with him. I don't think he ever finished.



Edit to add this.

I agree with Dead Stick and Mike about the XC endorsements.