Question about student PIC

[Mafoo]

So I am looking to buy a plane. Tomorrow night, the owner of a plane is going to take me for a ride.

If my CFI clears me for a solo flight in the plane, can I have someone with me, if they are a certified pilot?

Just curious if I can use the time I am evaluating the plane as student flight time. Obviously I would only count the time I am piloting the aircraft.

Thanks!

 

[ja_user]

its got nothing to do with PIC time.. YOu can't log it (because you don't have a rating, and aren't solo), and you certainly can't ACT as PIC with someone else in the plane, until you get your rating...

You can however log your "Sole manipulator of the controls" time, just don't log it PIC.

 

[Meanee]

To my knowledge, the only time a student can be a PIC if he's completely alone in a plane. If another pilot is there, even in a right seat, then no PIC for you.

This Saturday, a friend, who is a student pilot, asked me to ride with him just to go through PTS maneuvers. I made sure he knows that this time won't be logged for him. I am not a CFI, so it cannot be dual, and he won't be alone, so it won't be PIC for him.

So yes, you can have someone with you, if they are CERTIFIED pilot. So, no taking another student on a ride with you. But you won't be able to log it as PIC.

 

[Mafoo]

its got nothing to do with PIC time.. YOu can't log it (because you don't have a rating, and aren't solo), and you certainly can't ACT as PIC with someone else in the plane, until you get your rating...

You can however log your "Sole manipulator of the controls" time, just don't log it PIC.

So if we fly for an hour, and I am flying the plane for 30 min of that, I now only need a minimum of 39.5 additional hours?

Just restating so I know I understand what your saying

 

[dweyant]

A related question.

I have a friend that is just starting to work on his private.

Obviously I am acting as PIC for the entire flight, but can he log any of the time we are in the air?

-Dan

 

[AggieMike88]

Mafoo; EdFred has a good flow chart that answers the question of "Can I log this as PIC time?"

Perhaps this might help you now and in the future.

Click the attachment link to view.

 

[TMetzinger]

A related question.

I have a friend that is just starting to work on his private.

Obviously I am acting as PIC for the entire flight, but can he log any of the time we are in the air?

-Dan

Unless you're a CFI, he's better off not logging anything.

 

[Mafoo]

Mafoo; EdFred has a good flow chart that answers the question of "Can I log this as PIC time?"

Perhaps this might help you now and in the future.

Click the attachment link to view.

In that chart, it states if I have my PPL, and I have a 5 year old with me, in a plane I am not rated for, I am not the PIC.

However if I am alone, I am.

Odd.

 

[ja_user]

So said another way, anyone can log sole manipulator of the control time with another pilot.... This is the time they are actually at the controls. My 11 year old daughter can log her time with me, even if she has never had a lesson (I am not a cfi). So I guess it would count toward your 40 hours total, but that is about all it would count for. I certainly would not do the landings, or log landings, flight training recieved, or PIC in these cases.

The logging of PIC you could not do though, as a student you can only log PIC when you are alone.

The Acting of PIC in an aircraft, you cannot do. As a student you can only Act as PIC when you are alone in the aircraft.

If you are a student in an aircraft, with someone else. that someone else better understand they are responsible for the flight, and that they need to be current, etc... You are basically just a passenger.

 

[ja_user]

A related question.

I have a friend that is just starting to work on his private.

Obviously I am acting as PIC for the entire flight, but can he log any of the time we are in the air?

-Dan

He can log the time he is flying the controls, and you should not log this time.. Obviously you are PIC, but you can only log time (include PIC) that you are flying..

It isn't that hard. 1 hour fllight, I log and fly .5 hour, you log and fly the other .5 hour.. We just need to each be flying the .5 hour we log, and since there is no safety pilot involved, only the person acting as PIC can log PIC.

The thread will get confusing, because people are asking and referencing both logging and acting PIC, which are two distinct things...

 

[ja_user]

In that chart, it states if I have my PPL, and I have a 5 year old with me, in a plane I am not rated for, I am not the PIC.

However if I am alone, I am.

Odd.

How did you get there?

You are rated right? Or you shouldn't have your 5 year old with you...

 

[Mafoo]

How did you get there?

You are rated right? Or you shouldn't have your 5 year old with you...

YES -> NO -> NO (in a plane I am not rated for with someone)
YES -> NO -> YES (in a plane I am not rated for alone)

EDIT: I guess it is for "when not breaking the law..." cases

 

[Mafoo]

So said another way, anyone can log sole manipulator of the control time with another pilot.... This is the time they are actually at the controls. My 11 year old daughter can log her time with me, even if she has never had a lesson (I am not a cfi). So I guess it would count toward your 40 hours total, but that is about all it would count for. I certainly would not do the landings, or log landings, flight training recieved, or PIC in these cases.

The logging of PIC you could not do though, as a student you can only log PIC when you are alone.

The Acting of PIC in an aircraft, you cannot do. As a student you can only Act as PIC when you are alone in the aircraft.

If you are a student in an aircraft, with someone else. that someone else better understand they are responsible for the flight, and that they need to be current, etc... You are basically just a passenger.

Thanks for this. That answers my question

 

[Everskyward]

This Saturday, a friend, who is a student pilot, asked me to ride with him just to go through PTS maneuvers. I made sure he knows that this time won't be logged for him. I am not a CFI, so it cannot be dual, and he won't be alone, so it won't be PIC for him.

Are you a student too or are you a private pilot? Two students and no other pilot in the airplane is verboten.

Edit: Nevermind, I got Meanee and Mafoo mixed up.

 

[ja_user]

It isn't that odd. Who else is going to ACT as PIC, if you are alone? You buy default have to do it, but if you have a CFI or anyone else with you, then they have to be rated and do it..

 

[ja_user]

Are you a student too or are you a private pilot? Two students and no other pilot in the airplane is verboten.

Really, there is no functional difference between a student and a passenger. Other than the Student may be signed off for "Solo only" where the passenger probably isn't...

 

[poadeleted20]

A Student Pilot cannot log time with another person in the airplane unless that other person is an authorized instructor giving training to the Student, regardless of who is manipulating the controls. That "sole manipulator" clause only applies if you are "rated," and Student Pilots are not "rated." See 61.51 for details. So, Student Pilot Mafoo will not be able to log in any way the time flying with the Private Pilot who owns the plane. The only way Mafoo could log anything is if the owner lets Mafoo go up solo, which isn't bloody likely for about a dozen different reasons, not all regulatory.

 

[AggieMike88]

In that chart, it states if I have my PPL, and I have a 5 year old with me, in a plane I am not rated for, I am not the PIC.

However if I am alone, I am.

Odd.

I'll defer to the others to answer the question about not being rated for the aircraft from an FAR standpoint.

From a practical and safety view, if you're not correctly rated for that aircraft, you're taking a big risk of not being able to get out of a situation when things go tango uniform.

 

[Mafoo]

A Student Pilot cannot log time with another person in the airplane unless that other person is an authorized instructor giving training to the Student, regardless of who is manipulating the controls. That "sole manipulator" clause only applies if you are "rated," and Student Pilots are not "rated." See 61.51 for details. So, Student Pilot Mafoo will not be able to log in any way the time flying with the Private Pilot who owns the plane. The only way Mafoo could log anything is if the owner lets Mafoo go up solo, which isn't bloody likely for about a dozen different reasons, not all regulatory.

Crap, and thanks

 

[poadeleted20]

Thanks for this. That answers my question

No, it doesn't, because Sam is wrong about being able to log flight time as sole manipulator without either being solo, rated, or receiving training from an authorized instructor. Dig into 61.51 and the definitions in 1.1 and 61.1, and you'll see there is no loggable category for such time (the airship student exception notwithstanding).

 

[poadeleted20]

Crap, and thanks

Yeah, I know how you feel, but 10,000 hours from now, it really won't matter.

 

[MBDiagMan]

A Student Pilot cannot log time with another person in the airplane unless that other person is an authorized instructor giving training to the Student, regardless of who is manipulating the controls. That "sole manipulator" clause only applies if you are "rated," and Student Pilots are not "rated." See 61.51 for details. So, Student Pilot Mafoo will not be able to log in any way the time flying with the Private Pilot who owns the plane. The only way Mafoo could log anything is if the owner lets Mafoo go up solo, which isn't bloody likely for about a dozen different reasons, not all regulatory.

Thanks for this post. My gut was telling me that unless the passenger was a CFI it was a no-no, but I didn't know exactly where to start looking to find it.

 

[AggieMike88]

Ron, rated applies to the type of aircraft, such as ASEL, correct?

 

[spinfire]

To my knowledge, the only time a student can be a PIC if he's completely alone in a plane. If another pilot is there, even in a right seat, then no PIC for you.

Generally true. The only exception is on the check ride itself. The DPE is a sort of non entity and unless they agree to be PIC ahead of time for some bizarre reason they are not PIC and they are not considered a passenger. So you can log PIC on the checkride even though you aren't a private pilot until you pass it!

 

[ja_user]

No, it doesn't, because Sam is wrong about being able to log flight time as sole manipulator without either being solo, rated, or receiving training from an authorized instructor. Dig into 61.51 and the definitions in 1.1 and 61.1, and you'll see there is no loggable category for such time (the airship student exception notwithstanding).

Ok, so I went back and read. Ron is right on this one...

 

[bflynn]

Surprise it wasn't cited - the word and that I bolded indicates that (i), (ii) and (iii) must be met.

61.51 (e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.

(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when the student pilot—

(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember;
(ii) Has a solo flight endorsement as required under §61.87 of this part; and
(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or rating.
​

So, as was stated, a student cannot log PIC unless they are the sole occupant.

​

 

[nosehair]

Generally true. The only exception is on the check ride itself. for some bizarre reason they are not PIC and they are not considered a passenger. So you can log PIC on the checkride even though you aren't a private pilot until you pass it!

Not bizarre at all, in fact, it is regulatory.
61.47 Status of an Examiner
(b)The examiner is not the PIC...

Yeah, it is kinda bizarre, isn't it. In fact, I thought it was ridiculous until I learned the reason: Liability. Big Government Deep Pockets.
If the applicant makes a mistake, there are people just waiting for such an event to be able to sue Uncle Sam.

Sad, but these guys have to be totally diconnected to avoid big liability.