Question about KWHP departure procedure

FlyingMonkey

FlyingMonkey

Pre-takeoff checklist
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FlyingMonkey
Question about this Departure Procedure out of KWHP:

WHITEMAN (WHP)
TAKEOFF MINIMUMS AND (OBSTACLE) DEPARTURE PROCEDURES
ORIG 94034 (FAA)

TAKEOFF MINIMUMS: Rwys 12, 30, 2900-2 or std. with a min. climb of 350' per NM to 4300.

DEPARTURE PROCEDURE: Rwy 12, climbing right turn direct VNY VOR/DME. Rwy 30, climbing left turn heading 260°. All aircraft climb to 4500 via VNY R- 325, then climbing left turn direct VNY VOR/DME.


So, if you were departing runway 30 (and could meet min climb rate) after the left turn to heading 260 and upon intercepting the VNY R-325 which direction would you turn? I ask because I was taught one way to do this (and have been flying that way for 6 months now) but was told something different today.

Thanks for your help.
 
Help if ya provide a link so we could have a look. And no, I ain't gonna look it up. :)
 
Well...Considering it says a climbing left turn direct VNY VOR/DME after intercepting the 325 radial. I'm gonna say...left? If you were going inbound on the 325 radial, you wouldn't need to turn direct to VNY VOR/DME now would you?
 
The clearance is WHP IFR departure procedure> LANGE > SAUGS>.... climb maintain 5000 expect 7000 10 after.

So I depart, turn left 260, intercept VNY R-325 and turn right and continue climbing. Controller says why didn't I turn left on R-325.. I didn't want to argue with him, just apologized. He asked if I had terrain in sight and I did- by that point I was above the thin layer and could see mountains. I figure those mountains are why they want the min climb rate and they want you turning right and climbing to 4500 before coming back toward VNY to stay out of Bur and VNY airspace as much as possible.

Please let me know if I've got it all wrong but I've flown that DP at least a dozen times with an instructor. Usually we get vectored before even intercepting VNY R-325.
 
Here is the area....
 

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The procedure says to climb on VNY R-235 until 4500 and then climbing left turn to VNY. I was flying outbound on the VNY R-325 and maybe he was wondering why I didn't turn left after 4500 feet and head back to VNY? I don't think I was at 4500 feet yet when he was asking me about the turn though. I guess if he didn't give me a direct to LANGE or other vector by the time I get to 4500' I should theoretically turn back to VNY after reaching 4500 feet, fly to the VNY VOR direct and then proceed back north to LANGE.
 
That's my home airport and I recently got my IR, so I'm quite familiar with that ODP.

You are expected to fly 260 and then outbound on the R-325 to 4500 then back towards VNY. That said, I've only had to do that turn once before SoCal vectored me on course. They usually vector you before you even reach the 325 radial.

Departing IFR from KWHP, you are kind of the red-headed stepchild of the local area, often waiting on traffic from Burbank and Van Nuys. Also, winds usually favor runway 12, so 30 can be a little sketchy if your tailwind gets over 8 or so knots.

Being an IFR newbie, I'd like to hear what you would do in this situation:
You file IFR from Whiteman, which is always a departure on 30. The tailwinds are too strong to depart on 30...would you just take off VFR on 12 and pick up the clearance in the air? Or do you need to cancel and refile a new flight plan that starts at a intersection? This has always confused me a little.
 
mr_happyland said:
That's my home airport and I recently got my IR, so I'm quite familiar with that ODP.

You are expected to fly 260 and then outbound on the R-325 to 4500 then back towards VNY. That said, I've only had to do that turn once before SoCal vectored me on course. They usually vector you before you even reach the 325 radial.

Departing IFR from KWHP, you are kind of the red-headed stepchild of the local area, often waiting on traffic from Burbank and Van Nuys. Also, winds usually favor runway 12, so 30 can be a little sketchy if your tailwind gets over 8 or so knots.

Being an IFR newbie, I'd like to hear what you would do in this situation:
You file IFR from Whiteman, which is always a departure on 30. The tailwinds are too strong to depart on 30...would you just take off VFR on 12 and pick up the clearance in the air? Or do you need to cancel and refile a new flight plan that starts at a intersection? This has always confused me a little.
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I have had the same experience where the controller will vector before I get to R-325. I do think if I had reached 4500 on the 325 outbound I would have to turn around direct VNY until he gave me something new. But he was telling me I should have turned left onto 325 from the 260 heading which by the hive mind here is wrong.

As for departing 30 with a tailwind. I first use a basic formula and performance charts from the POH.

"The tailwind takeoff distance is equal to:

(a) 110 percent of the computed density altitude takeoff distance, plus

(b) the value of the takeoff distance times the tailwind component divided by the rotation speed.

Density altitude takeoff distance * 1.10 = (a)

Density altitude takeoff distance * TW/VR = (b)

Total takeoff distance = (a) + (b)" (SOURCE: http://www.mountainflying.com/pages/mountain-flying/rule_of_thumb.html)

If I cannot make the takeoff on 30 with a tailwind I will ask for an IFR release on 12 if the weather prohibits a VFR departure. It may take awhile because they have to coordinate quite a bit to make that happen but the alternative is inadvertently flying into IMC with no clearance. Even if the weather is VFR it may take some time to get a clearance after departing so I would make sure I had high enough ceilings and reasonable confidence that they would not be rapidly changing so I could stay VFR to pick up the clearance.

But yeah there are many times from WHP where I depart VFR and pick up a clearance in the air since there is almost always a 10 minute wait for release in the area. Although this morning I departed around 7:20am before tower opened and got an immediate release. I would just leave the filed flight plan. From my understanding if you depart reasonably close to filed time and try to pick up the clearance in the air, they may be able to use your filed plan. If not, they;ll just give you a new clearance. Another reason why I like a good margin to be able to maintain VFR -- copying a new long clearance and programming avionics while trying to maintain VFR in marginal VFR weather is not fun. I've departed a few times VFR from whiteman and picked up a clearance for McCarran Las Vegas just after reaching the Newhall pass. Sometimes they make you wait a little while to accommodate.

What are you flying out of KWHP. Ive got a '73 Cherokee 180 Challenger based there.
 
It might have been worded different, like climb via the VNY-R325 outbound....... But the turn left and proceed back to VNY after 4500 takes the mystery out of it for me. Where did you get "but was told something different today," was it a CFI?
 
FlyingMonkey said:
The procedure says to climb on VNY R-235 until 4500 and then climbing left turn to VNY. I was flying outbound on the VNY R-325 and maybe he was wondering why I didn't turn left after 4500 feet and head back to VNY? I don't think I was at 4500 feet yet when he was asking me about the turn though. I guess if he didn't give me a direct to LANGE or other vector by the time I get to 4500' I should theoretically turn back to VNY after reaching 4500 feet, fly to the VNY VOR direct and then proceed back north to LANGE.
Click to expand...

Ain't no theoretically about it. Thats what the procedure says to do.
 
mr_happyland said:
...........................Departing IFR from KWHP, you are kind of the red-headed stepchild of the local area, often waiting on traffic from Burbank and Van Nuys............
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LOL. Yup, WHP is the basterd red headed step child there just like the whole BUR/VNY/WHP area is the same of SOCAL
 
luvflyin said:
It might have been worded different, like climb via the VNY-R325 outbound....... But the turn left and proceed back to VNY after 4500 takes the mystery out of it for me. Where did you get "but was told something different today," was it a CFI?
Click to expand...

The Socal controller asked me why I didn't turn left to VNY as I was making the right turn on to the VNY R-325 outbound. I am almost 100% certain I was not yet at 4500'. Trying to analyze my tracklog data to confirm...
 
FlyingMonkey said:
The Socal controller asked me why I didn't turn left to VNY as I was making the right turn on to the VNY R-325 outbound. I am almost 100% certain I was not yet at 4500'. Trying to analyze my tracklog data to confirm...
Click to expand...

Oh. The controller. Like @MauleSkinner said above, "wouldn't be the first time a controller has misunderstood a DP." Theres a possibilty that right after he said it, someone down there slapped him upside the head (figurativly speaking.) Then they just got you on your way to Lange.
 
luvflyin said:
Oh. The controller. Like @MauleSkinner said above, "wouldn't be the first time a controller has misunderstood a DP." Theres a possibilty that right after he said it, someone down there slapped him upside the head (figurativly speaking.) Then they just got you on your way to Lange.
Click to expand...

Yeah that's probably what happened. I asked time allowing if he could clarify the departure procedure but he didn't respond...
 
Honestly after looking at it and with your story, I'd give the facility a ring on the phone and talk to a sup.

Not at all to get anyone in trouble but just as a query about why you got that.

Perhaps someone at the faculty is thinking it's supposed to be something other than what's published and it's worth checking with them to see. They can query internally and see what is busted there.
 
FlyingMonkey said:
Yeah that's probably what happened. I asked time allowing if he could clarify the departure procedure but he didn't respond...
Click to expand...
denverpilot said:
Honestly after looking at it and with your story, I'd give the facility a ring on the phone and talk to a sup.

Not at all to get anyone in trouble but just as a query about why you got that.

Perhaps someone at the faculty is thinking it's supposed to be something other than what's published and it's worth checking with them to see. They can query internally and see what is busted there.
Click to expand...

Thats a good idea. Here's a couple numbers to try if you don't find someone around Whitman who knows a better one to try. Ops manager on duty, 858-537-5900. Airspace and Procedures, 858-537-5830. Let us know what you find out.
 
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