Question about instruction. Night vfr, mountainous terrain

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BM....

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Bm....
Howdy all, new guy here. Not too many message boards with this level of interaction out there for intruction and instructors, and this one looks pretty active so here goes...

Mountain flying night VFR.

I know a guy who is working on his commercial. His instructor took him on a night cross country in mountainous terrain using gps points that were uncharted points. These points coincided with what would be a vfr corrider that allowed for safe travel through the pass. By reported first hand accounts, the weather was very good with minimal wind. The real reason for the trip was that the cfi needed to be someplace across the mountains the next morning.

Is it normal and generally accepted practice to fly night vfr single engine in mountainous terrain using gps points in a training situation?

Thanks in advance.
 
Are you saying they were below some of the terrain they couldn't see but were using GPS points? Or was the moon bright enough for them to see the terrain visually?
 
During the NEW moon? I think you meant the full moon.

You can see a lot underneath a bright moon, but it's still quite risky to combine all those elenents.

Especially in a pass.

But, honestly, we're talking about a commercial student. He's qualified to make that decision, and it's his to make, NOT his instructor's nor yours.
 
MAKG1 said:
During the NEW moon? I think you meant the full moon.

You can see a lot underneath a bright moon, but it's still quite risky to combine all those elenents.

Especially in a pass.

But, honestly, we're talking about a commercial student. He's qualified to make that decision, and it's his to make, NOT his instructor's nor yours.
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Nope, I meant NEW MOON. Pitch black except the lights below. OTOH, It was the local area, crossing a major throughfare passing through a fairly wide cut.

As for OP, it was likely during a full/near-full moon. Big difference.
 
BM.... said:
Howdy all, new guy here. Not too many message boards with this level of interaction out there for intruction and instructors, and this one looks pretty active so here goes...

Mountain flying night VFR.

I know a guy who is working on his commercial. His instructor took him on a night cross country in mountainous terrain using gps points that were uncharted points. These points coincided with what would be a vfr corrider that allowed for safe travel through the pass. By reported first hand accounts, the weather was very good with minimal wind. The real reason for the trip was that the cfi needed to be someplace across the mountains the next morning.

Is it normal and generally accepted practice to fly night vfr single engine in mountainous terrain using gps points in a training situation?

Thanks in advance.
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I assume your talking about Colorado mountains and flying through the corridors between them with peaks above you to either side....

I think that's a bit too risky. If you know the corridor and the winds are calm then I guess you can fly it safely, but you are essentially making your own RNAV approach. If he can fly it safely, then great.
The part that I consider risky is night + single engine + mountains...you are 100% depended on your engine.

But then again, I am not a hard core bush pilot.
 
Which mountains, which passes, what type of airplane?
 
warthog1984 said:
Nope, I meant NEW MOON. Pitch black except the lights below. OTOH, It was the local area, crossing a major throughfare passing through a fairly wide cut.

As for OP, it was likely during a full/near-full moon. Big difference.
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That's not mountain flying. If you can stay 2000 AGL and above the OROCA trivially and there is a major highway to follow, that's just suburban night flying.

Mountain flying means terrain and performance is a concern.
 
MAKG1 said:
That's not mountain flying. If you can stay 2000 AGL and above the OROCA trivially and there is a major highway to follow, that's just suburban night flying.

Mountain flying means terrain and performance is a concern.
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Above the terrain?:rofl: The worn-out 152 I was in could climb to 4500MSL (high enough to traverse the saddle/cut the highway crossed through, sorta) but topping the mountains wasn't happening without a LOOONG circling climb. Actually, on the way back the mountains blocking out the lights of the towns "above" us were the best indication that we were getting blown off course.

My instructor loved it since HE knew exactly where we were; I was sweating bullets.
 
warthog1984 said:
Santa Monican Mtns, Canejo Grade (to/from VNY), and a very worn-out and near-gross 152.

In a 172/182, not a problem. In a 152, it can get exciting.
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In an airworthy 152 loaded within limits, no it can't. That's nowhere near the performance limit.

As I said, suburban night flying. Conejo Grade barely breaks 1000 feet at the surface and T.O. is hardly dark, ever. The highest peaks are around 3500 feet. That 152 should be able to top 10,000 with some effort.

Big Bear would be mountain flying. I wouldn't suggest it in a 152 as you get vulnerable to common winds, but it's been done. I did it in a Warrior. Definitely not at night.
 
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warthog1984 said:
Nope, I meant NEW MOON. Pitch black except the lights below. OTOH, It was the local area, crossing a major throughfare passing through a fairly wide cut.

As for OP, it was likely during a full/near-full moon. Big difference.
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If your referring to the 101, its really a non event. If you were entering VNY from the north, I'm guessing you followed the 118? Either route is pretty easy to navigate.
 
Depends what the terrain is. Around here, while it's "mountainous terrain" by FAA definition, flying at 5000' will easily top everything. A mountainous forest and a flat forest for engine out situations isn't much different.
 
BM.... said:
Howdy all, new guy here. Not too many message boards with this level of interaction out there for intruction and instructors, and this one looks pretty active so here goes...

Mountain flying night VFR.

I know a guy who is working on his commercial. His instructor took him on a night cross country in mountainous terrain using gps points that were uncharted points. These points coincided with what would be a vfr corrider that allowed for safe travel through the pass. By reported first hand accounts, the weather was very good with minimal wind. The real reason for the trip was that the cfi needed to be someplace across the mountains the next morning.

Is it normal and generally accepted practice to fly night vfr single engine in mountainous terrain using gps points in a training situation?

Thanks in advance.
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Yeah, I only flew at night in the mountains VFR if the weather forecast was spectacular and on then on "my routes" that I was familiar with.
 
My night XC was KRNO to KLOL (Reno to Lovelock, NV). It was during a new moon and it was DARK out there. Lovelock town is a long way from the airport and out at the airport you could only see the runway - it was like landing on an aircraft carrier.

There is some terrain on the flight out there and it was impossible to see. Gave me a real lesson in "3 hours night is not enough".
 
warthog1984 said:
Santa Monican Mtns, Canejo Grade (to/from VNY), and a very worn-out and near-gross 152.

In a 172/182, not a problem. In a 152, it can get exciting.
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...that’s a seriously worn out 152. next time take the bus.
 
vfrfellow said:
...that’s a seriously worn out 152. next time take the bus.
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Can't disagree with you there- 300fpm climb at SL, 95kts @ full throttle, 5000ft service ceiling. The instructor substituted the 6000ft numbers for SL performance and figured it was close enough :mad:.

OTOH, at least I didn't get to using the engine as a crutch for poor technique. And it got me through most of my PPL.
 
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I'm going to question your judgment if you truly flew an airplane you knew to have less than half the service ceiling it should have. Are you out of your mind, or just exaggerating?

95 KIAS is pretty normal for a 150/152, but you should be able to climb far higher than 5000 unless your technique is really bad, e.g. not leaning or trying to do it at 95.
 
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"Is it normal and generally accepted practice to fly night vfr single engine in mountainous terrain using gps points in a training situation?"

I am not high time (do fly VFR day in the mountains, which I define as peaks and ridges higher than the service ceiling of the plane I'm flying, and I also have about 15 hours logged ridge soaring in the Alps) but do not consider what you describe "generally accepted practice." Perhaps it depends in part how you define "mountainous terrain." If that means you are several thousand feet above the highest points, that's one thing. If you are talking about high mountains, I would not try it, except maybe once to see what it's like and say I'd done it, and probably not even then.

It's exciting enough to do this in the day. Why do it at night when you see less? I'm sure a bunch of people will post that it's a daily (nightly) practice for them. But I suspect it is quite rare.
 
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BM.... said:
Is it normal and generally accepted practice to fly night vfr single engine in mountainous terrain ...?

Thanks in advance.
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I think Fedex or their contractors do this. They only lose one every five or ten years or so. Choose wisely.
 
Not encouraged in the Colorado Pilots Association mountain flying course! I assume they have their reasons hence reason why I don't fly VFR after dark here.

Oddly enough evening winds can be rediculous in evening and at night here in the Rockies.
 
Have spent a decent amount of nights, in marginal weather, low to the ground out in the Fallon range airspace (very mountainous in a lot of areas), flying around with goggles on, GPS aided INS, digital moving map, and just about every other tool for maintaining situational awareness. Have never felt comfortable doing it, and have been truly scared on a few occasions. One of those times was flying a jet that had experienced an insidious sort of INS failure, which essentially rendered all my waypoints several miles off as they were displayed to me in the cockpit, without ever indicating such a failure. It was bad weather in the middle of the winter, black night, no cultural or ambient lighting, and I was in and out of clouds with my wingman. We finally figured it out because his system was good (and he noticed we were miles from where we were supposed to be), and we didn't hit any mountains because we were wearing goggles and could generally see them, but the point of the story is that I don't trust GPS with my life over the mountains at night. For the example in the OP, I would never launch out over the mountains at night in an airplane (or on a flight plan) that doesn't climb safely above the highest terrain, if my only navigational reference was going to be GPS points.
 
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