Q on flying under Bravo shelf where Delta extends beyond the shelf

WannFly

WannFly

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So looking at MSP TAC and let's say I am planning a flight to FCM. Class Delta around FCM extends to 3400, but the lower shelf of Bravo is 3000. If I enter Delta at 3100 ft, am I violating Bravo shelf? What happens if I am taking to tower and for whatever reason I am holding at 3200 ft u till very close to the runway. Haven't see a bravo shelf lower than delta like this before.

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If you are above the floor of a Bravo without clearance to be in the Bravo then you are violating the Bravo airspace. This is a common thing and perhaps a little confusing to folks new to the overlap of airspaces.

In general, tower cannot clear you into the Bravo. Approach owns the airspace and sez tower can have the stuff outside the Bravo. If tower is nice they will tell you to git yer butt down. If they aren't so nice or there is a conflict they will tell you to give them a call on their telephone with the recording device.
 
Could have made our life whole lot easier if the Delta was under 3000 .... grr. Thanks all.

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WannFly said:
Could have made our life whole lot easier if the Delta was under 3000 .... grr. Thanks all.

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Not that it has anything to do with the Delta but just wait until you get the opportunity to tell Approach how you are departing on an IFR clearance when the tower is closed. They might have an aneurysm or three...
 
WannFly said:
Could have made our life whole lot easier if the Delta was under 3000 .... grr. Thanks all.

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Why not just ask for Class B clearance?
 
WannFly said:
So looking at MSP TAC and let's say I am planning a flight to FCM. Class Delta around FCM extends to 3400, but the lower shelf of Bravo is 3000. If I enter Delta at 3100 ft, am I violating Bravo shelf? What happens if I am taking to tower and for whatever reason I am holding at 3200 ft u till very close to the runway. Haven't see a bravo shelf lower than delta like this before.

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It's not the only one. There are others. AIM 3-1-3 tells you all about it.
 
iamtheari said:
When you depart the class D airport under the class B shelf for the first time, you will also learn that airplanes climb faster when they are approaching class B airspace from below.
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Ah. I've heard that Class B's suck. Didn't know they literally did.
 
It must just be the non-east coast bravos that suck BOS, NY, IAD all have been exceedingly pleasant and helpful. NY App even wanted to learn more about the Comanche since he was looking to buy one
 
WannFly said:
Could have made our life whole lot easier if the Delta was under 3000 .... grr. Thanks all.

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Why is it easier to fly at 3,200’ than 2,800’?

I’ve been based at FCM for 22 years and can honestly say it’s never been an issue.
 
BTW, if going to KFCM, the pattern is 1,900’ which with normal descent planning usually keeps you under the Bravo.
 
WannFly said:
So looking at MSP TAC and let's say I am planning a flight to FCM.
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Minneapolis has a friendly Bravo airspace. If you are VFR, just get flight following before you get near KMSP’s Bravo airspace. Then ask Minneapolis Approach for clearance to enter Bravo. They will gladly give it. After that, your experience will be not much different from flying anywhere else with flight following except that you must hold an altitude and heading if they specify it.
 
NoHeat said:
Minneapolis has a friendly Bravo airspace. If you are VFR, just get flight following before you get near KMSP’s Bravo airspace. Then ask Minneapolis Approach for clearance to enter Bravo. They will gladly give it. After that, your experience will be not much different from flying anywhere else with flight following except that you must hold an altitude and heading if they specify it.
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I agree, Minneapolis is friendly and I wouldn't avoid talking to them or asking for a bravo transition. But there's really no reason to request a bravo clearance to get into Flying Cloud when coming from the west. A little descent planning and situational awareness is all that's needed.
 
Be careful. There is part of that delta ceiling that drops to 2300 on the east side.

IMG_0012.jpg

But really, you have it good. Where I trained in st Pete, the bravo drives the ceiling down to 1200

IMG_0013.jpg
 
There are places where they 'split' the Delta ceilings. Not really necessary because the hierarchy of airspace rule covers it. KPAO and KSQL are good examples of that.
 
You can absolutely get Bravo clearance from the Delta Tower control. They call it in but you get it. We do it out of KPIE (Tampa) all the time. "Ground, 121CD, information Bravo, VFR to KJAX request bravo clearance"
 
Salty said:
Be careful. There is part of that delta ceiling that drops to 2300 on the east side.

View attachment 57316

But really, you have it good. Where I trained in st Pete, the bravo drives the ceiling down to 1200

View attachment 57317
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That's an interesting piece of sky. At MCF they topped the D at -12 under the 1200 floor of the B. At SPG and PIE you have to apply the hierarchy of airspace rule. The tops of both those D's seem kinda low seeing as how Pattern altitudes are typically 1500 for high performance airplanes. With the floor of the B being 3000 to the west there you could fly very close to PIE and practically over the top of SPG at 1600/1500 without talking to anyone.
 
NoHeat said:
Minneapolis has a friendly Bravo airspace. If you are VFR, just get flight following before you get near KMSP’s Bravo airspace. Then ask Minneapolis Approach for clearance to enter Bravo. They will gladly give it. After that, your experience will be not much different from flying anywhere else with flight following except that you must hold an altitude and heading if they specify it.
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I'm based at MIC and am quite familiar with the airspace in question here. When MSP is operating on 12L/12R (i.e. most of the time) they're not likely to be letting VFR aircraft into the bravo above FCM. If you're just going to clip the edge of a shelf on a descent or something like that just let them know and they'll be cool. But they're never going to let you sit at 3000+ for any length of time out there when the airliners are on approach to 12 at MSP. But really the bravo above FCM is no big deal. That 3000 shelf is ~2000 above field elevation. You have to really be trying to bust that in a single engine piston GA aircraft. The 2300ft shelf is far enough away from the field that it also isn't an issue if you have the bare minimum situational awareness required to fly without killing yourself.

All that said... I'd still go ahead and ask approach for whatever. They will try to work you in if the airliner traffic allows. West or south the shelves are high enough the bravo is essentially a non-factor on a normal climb or descent in the event they don't clear you through. But going east or north you should have a backup plan for going around/under the bravo if they don't clear you through.

There have also been a few times when MSP approach has told me the magic words "cleared into the class bravo airspace", I get all excited that I'm going into the "big boy" airspace, then they immediately start giving me vectors and altitude assignments that have me just barely clipping into the edge of one of the shelves but otherwise aren't substantially different than going around/under when not on flight following.
 
Having been into FCM many times of late I would be cautious of two things if you've never been in this location and you are coming from the Fargo Area. First, you'll probably be coming in over Buffalo, the bravo is only 4000msl there. A lot of people just get down to 2800msl in the area and you are good all the way in.

The other thing to watch out for, especially on busier days is if landing 28R or 28L you can get your downwind extended. Sometimes it feels like forever. So very quickly you are in the 2300msl area! And if you go much farther you hit the surface column. On more than on occasion I felt a bit anxious and asked the tower if my base turn would be approved. And since pattern altitude is 1900 you have to watch pretty carefully on getting high in the pattern in the 2300msl ring.
 
Sinistar said:
Having been into FCM many times of late I would be cautious of two things if you've never been in this location and you are coming from the Fargo Area. First, you'll probably be coming in over Buffalo, the bravo is only 4000msl there. A lot of people just get down to 2800msl in the area and you are good all the way in.
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This is also a popular practice area for students at MIC and FCM, so get on flight following and keep a good traffic scan going. If approach isn't going to let you into the bravo they will usually give you a "descend and maintain 3500 or below" when you're ~10 minutes out from the 4000ft shelf to remind you to get down. Any normal descent into FCM from that direction will get you well under the 3000ft shelf by default.

If you guys want some really fun airspace in the MSP area, head on over to STP or SGS. My first time ever into STP tower put me in a right pattern for 14 to make way for departing jet traffic. I felt like I could open up the window, reach out and touch the bravo surface area from the downwind (it was really like 1/2 mile away, but that seems awfully close when you're in the moment).
 
Thanks all, much appreciated

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Sinistar said:
Having been into FCM many times of late I would be cautious of two things if you've never been in this location and you are coming from the Fargo Area. First, you'll probably be coming in over Buffalo, the bravo is only 4000msl there. A lot of people just get down to 2800msl in the area and you are good all the way in.

The other thing to watch out for, especially on busier days is if landing 28R or 28L you can get your downwind extended. Sometimes it feels like forever. So very quickly you are in the 2300msl area! And if you go much farther you hit the surface column. On more than on occasion I felt a bit anxious and asked the tower if my base turn would be approved. And since pattern altitude is 1900 you have to watch pretty carefully on getting high in the pattern in the 2300msl ring.
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Even on a bad day they’ve never had us extend beyond hwy 169 to the east and that’s just before the 2,300’ ring. You should be at the 1,900’ pattern or below anyway. You’d have to go east of Normandale/100 to be in the surface Bravo area and FCM probably wouldn’t even be able to see you at that point. FCM is busy, but they have excellent controllers (with one noteable exception....God help you if she’s working Tower!) Just pay attention and everybody is happy.
 
airheadpenguin said:
It must just be the non-east coast bravos that suck BOS, NY, IAD all have been exceedingly pleasant and helpful. NY App even wanted to learn more about the Comanche since he was looking to buy one
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NY TRACON is fine as long as you avoid going near TEB/EWR.
 
LDJones said:
Even on a bad day they’ve never had us extend beyond hwy 169 to the east and that’s just before the 2,300’ ring. You should be at the 1,900’ pattern or below anyway. You’d have to go east of Normandale/100 to be in the surface Bravo area and FCM probably wouldn’t even be able to see you at that point. FCM is busy, but they have excellent controllers (with one noteable exception....God help you if she’s working Tower!) Just pay attention and everybody is happy.
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Hi Loren, during training this summer (still a student now) we had one day where they really ran us east on the downwind for 28R. We were past 169 and 100 seemed to be coming up fast. I was giving my instructor the look, he was like "we'll call in 30seconds". And sure enough, what felt like 29.99 seconds later we get a base turn approved. It was just a busy, weird Saturday.
 
Sinistar said:
Hi Loren, during training this summer (still a student now) we had one day where they really ran us east on the downwind for 28R. We were past 169 and 100 seemed to be coming up fast. I was giving my instructor the look, he was like "we'll call in 30seconds". And sure enough, what felt like 29.99 seconds later we get a base turn approved. It was just a busy, weird Saturday.
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As soon as I hear “We’ll call your base” I tell my students to slow to their lowest final approach speed since the Tower is buying time. That usually works to keep us inside 169 in the Cherokee 140.
 
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