Pushover from Pattern Altitude

[Jaybird180]

In the C-172, the technique that I've been taught and strive for consistency with in the pattern to descend to land is:
Abeam the threshold, power to 1500, carb heat on, pull yoke to maintain traffic pattern altitude and slow to 80kts, 10 degrees of flaps, push over to maintain 80 until downwind to base turn point.

It never much occurred to me that this abrupt decrease in G-Force is uncomfortable to a passenger until it was pointed out to me. How can I make this smoother and more comfortable?

 

[markb5900]

It shouldn't be that abrupt as you describe it.
Pull your power, set the flaps and TRIM for the airspeed, it doesn't have to be an immediate change to it. The 172 will slow down pretty quickly.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Sounds like your case may just be a matter of exaggerated yoke pressure. You shouldn't have to really pull or push on the yoke when you reduce the power. You should be able to maintain pattern altitude by smoothly adding back pressure on the yoke and then when you are ready to descend at 80, ease up on that back pressure. Use trim to help, if you feel you need to push or pull.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

In the C-172, the technique that I've been taught and strive for consistency with in the pattern to descend to land is:
Abeam the threshold, power to 1500, carb heat on, pull yoke to maintain traffic pattern altitude and slow to 80kts, 10 degrees of flaps, push over to maintain 80 until downwind to base turn point.

It never much occurred to me that this abrupt decrease in G-Force is uncomfortable to a passenger until it was pointed out to me. How can I make this smoother and more comfortable?

Slow to your pattern speed earlier. In a 172, if you're at your desired speed by midfield downwind, you should be able to *gently* pull power to 1500 abeam the numbers and not do anything at all with the yoke or trim, and the plane will slowly pitch down to maintain 80 on its own.

There's another thing I've started doing to make pax more comfortable - Adding flaps makes the plane want to pitch up, especially the first two notches, and you have to fight it somewhat. So, rather than add flaps at the start of the descent, I'll add flaps when I roll into the turns to base and final - And the extra lift being added in the turns helps to keep a steady descent rate without much back pressure on the yoke.

In the DA40, there are only two notches of flaps - Approach and Landing. So, I'll add one each on the base and final turns. In the 182, I'm now adding the first notch when turning base, and both the 2nd and 3rd when turning final.

 

[nosehair]

Abeam the threshold, power to 1500, carb heat on,

Here, I would suggest a small, but critical, change in procedure: Carb Heat On, wait a few seconds to check for carb ice, then power back.

pull yoke to maintain traffic pattern altitude and slow to 80kts, 10 degrees of flaps, push over to maintain 80 until downwind to base turn point.

Here, it sounds like you are holding back pressure til a/s reaches 80, THEN putting down 10 flaps, which will force a sudden pushhover (with slight neg G) to maintain 80. Apply the flaps immediately after power back to aid in slowing and ease the nose down if necessary as the speed approaches 80. There should be no sudden pitch changes if you can avoid it.

 

[Jaybird180]

TRIM for the airspeed

Dangit

During landing I forget the trim wheel is even there. Probably would work better if I used it tho

 

[Jim Logajan]

Here, I would suggest a small, but critical, change in procedure: Carb Heat On, wait a few seconds to check for carb ice, then power back.Here, it sounds like you are holding back pressure til a/s reaches 80, THEN putting down 10 flaps, which will force a sudden pushhover (with slight neg G) to maintain 80. Apply the flaps immediately after power back to aid in slowing and ease the nose down if necessary as the speed approaches 80. There should be no sudden pitch changes if you can avoid it.

Shouldn't he at least insure speed is in the white arc before adding flaps, rather than immediately?

Also, I was taught to put in trim right reducing power - in the C-152 I train in, after setting power to 1500 RPM, three down strokes on the trim wheel (of as much of the trim arc as exposed as possible) gets one close to the desired trim.

 

[dmccormack]

Dangit

During landing I forget the trim wheel is even there. Probably would work better if I used it tho

Well...

The trim is made to account for the full range of CG. So while you may have full nose-up trim rolled in, you still have to pull back since there's not a full aft condition most times you fly the C172.

So it's ok to "forget" the trim once on final.

An option -- a technique, not required -- is to establish 70 or 60 (airplane and your comfort level permitting) on base -- after all, you're probably going to do a rather shallow descending turn from base to final.

That way you have flaps trim, and airspeed set so that once you complete the turn you can concentrate on final.

This technique really works well with a slipping left turn close in to the field.

 

[Jim Logajan]

Dangit

During landing I forget the trim wheel is even there. Probably would work better if I used it tho

Trim is your friend! :wink2:

Amazing how much it can improve your airspeed control (at least it does for me.) Since you (and I) are taught to reduce power to the same RPM, the same trim each time will yield the same hands-off trimmed airspeed. Find out what the magic number of down-strokes are needed on your 172's trim wheel to put you at the desired airspeed and use that amount each time. Adjust as needed.

 

[dmccormack]

Shouldn't he at least insure speed is in the white arc before adding flaps, rather than immediately?

Also, I was taught to put in trim right reducing power - in the C-152 I train in, after setting power to 1500 RPM, three down strokes on the trim wheel (of as much of the trim arc as exposed as possible) gets one close to the desired trim.

Yes, flaps should be extended only after airspeed is slow enough (in the white arc).

As far as counting trim -- in simple airplanes like C150/152/172 I usually give full trim -- all the way -- abeam the numbers (I'm already below Vfe).

Then add flaps.

Airplane slows a bit -- release yoke -- airplane nose pitches down a bit and speed stabilizes right around 70 KIAS or so.

turn base, add flaps, down, down, down -- slipping turn to final -- full flaps if desired/needed, pull back a bit t o slow -- voila.

 

[Jaybird180]

What's this slipping turn business? Why not just a regular descending turn?

 

[ajstoner21]

So, rather than add flaps at the start of the descent, I'll add flaps when I roll into the turns to base and final -

I'd be cautious adding flaps in a turn. If you had an assymetric flap extension in a turn to final, it could be pretty bad. I was taught to not add flaps in a turn unless it was absolutely nessary, but to do it on the level portions of the descent to help with that risk.

 

[ajstoner21]

Yes, flaps should be extended only after airspeed is slow enough (in the white arc).

The white arc is the full flap operating range in the 172 I fly. You can add up to 10 degrees of flaps if below 110 KIAS, and more then 10 flaps below 85 KIAS (White arc is 40-85)

 

[RyanShort1]

The white arc is the full flap operating range in the 172 I fly. You can add up to 10 degrees of flaps if below 110 KIAS, and more then 10 flaps below 85 KIAS (White arc is 40-85)

Not in all 172s. Some of the earlier M or N models, and for certain the K model are NOT approved for 110 in the POH.

Ryan

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I'd be cautious adding flaps in a turn. If you had an assymetric flap extension in a turn to final, it could be pretty bad. I was taught to not add flaps in a turn unless it was absolutely nessary, but to do it on the level portions of the descent to help with that risk.

I think it would be immediately apparent if you were having asymmetric extension, whether or not you were turning, in which case you would immediately retract them in either case. The only thing being in a turn does is allow you less recovery time, but it should be VERY apparent what's going on long before you run out of aileron authority to counteract the asymmetric deployment, and thus you should be OK unless you're making steep turns in the pattern.

 

[srbell]

Yes, flaps should be extended only after airspeed is slow enough (in the white arc).

As far as counting trim -- in simple airplanes like C150/152/172 I usually give full trim -- all the way -- abeam the numbers (I'm already below Vfe).

Then add flaps.

Airplane slows a bit -- release yoke -- airplane nose pitches down a bit and speed stabilizes right around 70 KIAS or so.

turn base, add flaps, down, down, down -- slipping turn to final -- full flaps if desired/needed, pull back a bit t o slow -- voila.

I'm not quite understanding the "slipping turn to final" part. I may do some slipping if needed after I've leveled out on final for crosswind compensation or to bleed off excess altitude if needed (if I don't already have 40 deg of flaps extended) but I don't think I'd be comfortable doing uncoordinated turns at approach speeds so close to the ground. I"m not trying to be difficult, just trying to understand if I'm missing something here or maybe not understanding what you mean.

 

[ajstoner21]

I think it would be immediately apparent if you were having asymmetric extension, whether or not you were turning, in which case you would immediately retract them in either case. The only thing being in a turn does is allow you less recovery time, but it should be VERY apparent what's going on long before you run out of aileron authority to counteract the asymmetric deployment, and thus you should be OK unless you're making steep turns in the pattern.

If I've learned anything from Murphy's Law, i will have an asymmetric deployment in the more critical direction, at low altitude, in a 30 degree ish bank, causing the flap extension motor to get damaged resulting in it not being able to be retracted, and also destroying aileron control linkages

Just kidding lol

 

[jesse]

For those worried about slipping turns in a 172 - please see my video where I simply can't make anything exciting happen in full slipping turns being forced into a stall (yoke all teh way back to stop)

The important thing is to never confuse a slipping turn with a skidding turn. Always "step on the sky". If you're in a right hand turn you "step on the sky" with your left foot.

 

[ajstoner21]

Just to be clear, a "slipping turn" is when there is not enough pedal used correct?

Example being, turn to the left, with no left pedal (or turn to the right, with no right pedal?)

 

[brcase]

Dangit

During landing I forget the trim wheel is even there. Probably would work better if I used it tho

Work on making the transition smooth. The flaps can help to trim the airplane. So as you reduce power the nose will probably start to drop. Hold it little back pressure to maintain your attitude and add flaps. Then roll in trim so that the plane will maintain your appoach speed hands off or with just a slight bit of back pressure.

With a little practice you will know exactly how much you need to move the trim to set the speed and then you need only a small adjustment. Most 172's when landing with 0 or 10 degrees of flaps only require about 3 pulls on the trim wheel.

Note I am not a big fan of landing full flaps every time. I just use less power to make about the same approach angle others would make with more flaps and power. Others will argue othewise. Perhaps this comes from flying small old tail draggers and gliders. Either way, it doesn't make much difference in how to transision to approach speed.

The suggestion to start slowing down sooner is good as well but after you get good at it, it won't take long to smoothly transition.

Once trimmed for you approach speed don't mess with the trim again. Just concentrate on flying your approach as much hands off (one finger on the yoke) as possible to keep the whole approach smooth, until you ready to start your round out.

just my 2 cents worth.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

 

[denverpilot]

In the 182, I'm now adding the first notch when turning base, and both the 2nd and 3rd when turning final.

I thought you guy's 182 was about the same as mine... I have no "notches", just a continuously selectable scale, and even better... I have 40 degrees to play with.

Turn final at pattern altitude and dumping out all 40 degrees of barn door, and a few degrees of flaperon with the Robby that come along for the ride, works too. Only one reeeeealy big pitch change then.

But the passengers really don't like it much unless they're roller coaster fans. . Hahaha.

Is your 182 one of the "crippled" 30 degree flap birds, Kent?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I thought you guy's 182 was about the same as mine... I have no "notches", just a continuously selectable scale, and even better... I have 40 degrees to play with.

Turn final at pattern altitude and dumping out all 40 degrees of barn door, and a few degrees of flaperon with the Robby that come along for the ride, works too. Only one reeeeealy big pitch change then.

But the passengers really don't like it much unless they're roller coaster fans. . Hahaha.

Is your 182 one of the "crippled" 30 degree flap birds, Kent?

Nope - All 40 degrees of barn door available.

It is a continuously selectable scale, but there are notches (in the panel, not the selector) at 10 and 20 degrees to help you select those positions. You can, however, choose any position you want.

That R/STOL sounds like it could be fun.

 

[Henning]

Dangit

During landing I forget the trim wheel is even there. Probably would work better if I used it tho

All the way to the ground you should be working the trim. There should be no point during a flight, from the moment you take the runway to the moment you clear it where the release of the control yoke should lead to a rapid divergence from your desired vector. When you are making your power reduction, you should be holding altitude with your left hand while chasing the pressure out with your right. Once your airspeed reaches what you desire, you no longer worry about altitude, trim out the control force, then shift your hand to the throttle and adjust your power for your desired rate of descent. Every time you make a power/configuration change, you go through this same drill. There should be no abrupt maneuvers or control inputs required. Consider everything to be a "transition" rather than a "change". Remember, the only time there is even a semi critical set of parameters for attitude and speed (in 3 directions vertical, lateral and lineal) is at the point you transition from air vehicle to terrestrial vehicle, and even then, you have a considerable amount of latitude in the parameters before you start breaking things.

 

[Henning]

I thought you guy's 182 was about the same as mine... I have no "notches", just a continuously selectable scale, and even better... I have 40 degrees to play with.

Turn final at pattern altitude and dumping out all 40 degrees of barn door, and a few degrees of flaperon with the Robby that come along for the ride, works too. Only one reeeeealy big pitch change then.

But the passengers really don't like it much unless they're roller coaster fans. . Hahaha.

Is your 182 one of the "crippled" 30 degree flap birds, Kent?

With the R/STOL kit you have flaperons as well don't you?

 

[denverpilot]

With the R/STOL kit you have flaperons as well don't you?

Yup. But they start to retract around flaps 25 and are almost fully retracted by flaps 40. Maybe 3-5 degrees. Thus the "teeny tiny" flaperon comment above. (It's not in the book. I should measure the angle sometime.). I assume it's because at really low speeds the ailerons would lose effectiveness, and since they're outboard of the stall fences they're attempting to keep the outboard wing flying (no helpful prop wash from the engine out there), plus probably some wicked tail blanketing if the whole wing were drooped and finally and more important than the rest... it's probably WAY too much drag for most pilots to handle in a go-around situation.

The first time you do a go-around with flaps 40, you can't really pitch up, and if you're at full up trim for a landing, going around you're shoving forward with left hand on the yoke as right hand pours the throttle back in, then reaches for the trim and rolls a gob of it out, and then goes for the flap handle while watching airspeed and gets at least back up to 30... Which upsets the whole power/pitch thing again, and the right hand gets busy on the trim wheel again, back and forth. Too "busy" and too much wasted time.

After your first time doing that, you learn. And you roll the trim the counted number of turns from full up, straight to takeoff trim, and just hold the appropriate noseup angle for Vx with the left hand othe yoke... Even if it's heavy. And now you have the right hand free to get those flaps out almost continuously. You save a lot of time and a few hundred lateral feet hanging there at flaps 30 with the engine roaring, not climbing.

Loved your commentary about continuous corrections. Make the airplane go and do what you want. If you want smooth, be smooth. The airplane is only doing exactly what your control inputs asked it to do. Don't think of the pattern as a set of linear rules... "pull power to x, pitch to x, push nose over, select flaps x". If you do that, you're flying like a computer. It'll get you down safely and within all limits, but those items are meant to be "signposts" to measure the performance against, not ridgid "do it exactly like this" items. Fly smooth. Aviate. It's air. You can hear it through the aluminum. You can feel it in your butt and inner ear.

I actually got dinged by a CFI for "too much control movement" on final. The landing was dead on centerline and at the speed and descent rate desired and I wasn't over controlling. When I made him explain in the debrief later, I learned that he was a "put it somewhere, wait to see what the correction is, put it somewhere else, wait for correction" trained person with a need (in his head) for deliberate stopping points in control movement. Little built in pauses. His brain needed them. Continuous fluid motion of controls wasn't in his repertoire.

It turns out, it wasn't that it was "too much" movement in the sense of how much I was moving the controls. It was that it was continuous that day. Gusty conditions, newish aircraft to me. I was just putting it where I wanted it to be, continuously. Power included.

At the end of the day I ultimately disagreed with his analysis and silently wondered how many students of his were out there herky-jerking down final. Air is fluid. It's not "notches" or "put in a correction and stop". Those are good ways to learn the basics. Later you learn to put in exactly how much pressure you need to hit the rate of change you want, or the speed you want, and you adjust fluidly and quickly to "paint the needles on". Or stick the aircraft where you want it to be. On speed, right where you want it. Especially a type or specific aircraft you know well.

To this day I don't get what his point was that day.

Glad to see you exposing what I have known for years... Henning. Keep adjusting, airplanes are operated until they're tied down, and air is a fluid. If it takes continuous smooth corrections to put the aircraft where you want it, do it. If you want a smooth transition to the pattern descent, make it smooth. WILL it to be smooth. You'll feel your attention level go up, and after a few times around the pattern you may actually feel more fatigued than a "paint by numbers" approach. Of course, the numbers still have to be hit. It's just how you're hitting them that changes. Smoothly transition.

You'll get it. You just had a passenger make you "aware" of your jerky technique. Good time to stay aware and practice making that passenger fall and stay asleep. All the way through touchdown.

 

[poadeleted20]

One point to be made up front is that Jaybird flies at an airport with an 800 AGL pattern, so there are a few differences in how the pattern needs to be flown.

I think the problem is beginning when you are on downwind at more than 80 and pull the power straight back to 1500, which is insufficient to maintain altitude at 80 knots. I think you'll do better if you establish yourself in trimmed level flight at 80 knots early on downwind (probably around 1800 RPM). Then, when you reach the "abeam" position, extend the flaps to 10 and retrim (you'll probably stabilize around 75 knots), and wait to reduce power further until you reach the point where you want to leave 800 AGL. At that point, reduce power without changing yoke pressure. The nose will drop gently on its own without any "pushover" or negative g feeling and you'll be established for the descent through the rest of the pattern.

 

[poadeleted20]

What's this slipping turn business? Why not just a regular descending turn?

Because Dan enjoys slipping. There should be no need to make a slipping turn to final unless either you let yourself stay too high downwind-to-base or there are unusual obstructions requiring you to stay unusually high on downwind-to-base (which there aren't at W00 where you fly).

 

[poadeleted20]

Just to be clear, a "slipping turn" is when there is not enough pedal used correct?

A "slipping turn" in this context means a deliberate slip (opposite rudder) input during the turn for the purpose of increasing descent angle without increasing speed. A slipping turn to final is a useful technique at airports with obstructions requiring you to stay so high on base leg that even slipping all the way down final won't lose enough altitude to get down to the runway. It's also useful for power-off emergency approaches where you always want to err a bit on the high side because it's real hard to fix "low" without power.

 

[dmccormack]

I'm not quite understanding the "slipping turn to final" part. I may do some slipping if needed after I've leveled out on final for crosswind compensation or to bleed off excess altitude if needed (if I don't already have 40 deg of flaps extended) but I don't think I'd be comfortable doing uncoordinated turns at approach speeds so close to the ground. I"m not trying to be difficult, just trying to understand if I'm missing something here or maybe not understanding what you mean.

It looks like you have some good responses already, but since I brought it up I'll simply say a slip is a very useful manuever. Far too many pilots are afraid of them because they think "Unccordinated" = Instant Death!

While "coordinated flight" is usually linked to the ball in center, skids are the problem, not slips (and the ball should be in full defelection if you're doing a slip right).

We can give you some food for thought but you really need to ask an instructor to demonstrate and then let you practice. And then you'll find that slipping = fun!



A slipping left turn on final used to be standard procedure for long-nosed tailwheels -- it's the only way to see the runway on final.

 

[Ted]

Addition of flaps does tend to upset the pitch attitude of the plane. Some planes do it worse than others. However, I don't think the solution is to add flaps in the turn. Rather, you get an instinctive motion to push or pull on the yoke (some planes pitch down with addition of flaps) with the movement of the flaps. If you do this properly, it should be seamless to the passenger.

The key to passenger comfort is planning your descent and not having any abrupt turns or movements. Most passengers are upset by steep turns or rapid descents. I'd start slowing down on downwind to get to the point of first notch of flaps abeam the numbers, and that should help make it a smoother pattern. Smoothness is key. If the passengers can stay asleep during the pattern, then they'll be happy.

Jesse is correct about slipping turns not being a big deal. The skidding turns are where the plane will try to kill you. Step on the sky is a good way of thinking of it.

 

[dmccormack]

Because Dan enjoys slipping. There should be no need to make a slipping turn to final unless either you let yourself stay too high downwind-to-base or there are unusual obstructions requiring you to stay unusually high on downwind-to-base (which there aren't at W00 where you fly).

Yes, I do, but I think the ability to pull this tool should be in every pilot's bag. It can come in very handy should you need to dead-stick into the local soccer field.

 

[srbell]

Thanks Cap'n Ron, Dan, and others for the feedback regarding the slips - much appreciated. I do use slips on final occasionally, but so far have avoided them during turns. I guess I'm just remembering my spin training years ago where we'd simulate a departure with a right turn without using the rudder, then lift the nose and stall it. The left spin from the right turn was quite interesting to see for the first time I realize that's an entirely different situation though. I'll have to go up to altitude and simulate the base and final while slipping in the turn and see how it looks. I can think of one particular airport nearby where that could be a handy tool.

 

[whifferdill]

Yes, I do, but I think the ability to pull this tool should be in every pilot's bag. It can come in very handy should you need to dead-stick into the local soccer field.

Yep, of course a slipping turn (or a slip at all) is a pointless maneuver unless you're completely power off on base to final...or using the slip for visibilility reasons in a blind airplane. But given popular opinion regarding how approaches should be and are flown, that would make this a rare maneuver.

At my airport, I'm more likely to see Slim Pickens do a buzz job in a B-52 than see someone do a slip.

 

[dmccormack]

Thanks Cap'n Ron, Dan, and others for the feedback regarding the slips - much appreciated. I do use slips on final occasionally, but so far have avoided them during turns. I guess I'm just remembering my spin training years ago where we'd simulate a departure with a right turn without using the rudder, then lift the nose and stall it. The left spin from the right turn was quite interesting to see for the first time I realize that's an entirely different situation though. I'll have to go up to altitude and simulate the base and final while slipping in the turn and see how it looks. I can think of one particular airport nearby where that could be a handy tool.

I just noticed -- You're in Huntington! There are lots of little WV airports tucked in behind ridges, etc.

You won't get into Maley Field (near Shinnston) without slipping. :wink2:

Keep in mind that when you do a slipping turn you can push the nose down rather aggresively without building up alot of speed. You don't want to start out slipping at stall speed until you *really* know your airplane.

(A slow speed slip can drop alot of altitude in a very short horizontal distance).

 

[poadeleted20]

Yes, I do, but I think the ability to pull this tool should be in every pilot's bag. It can come in very handy should you need to dead-stick into the local soccer field.

I think I said that. But a slipping turn to final shouldn't be part of your "normal" approach to landing, and if you find you need it on every approach you make, you're probably doing something wrong.

 

[dmccormack]

Yep, of course a slipping turn (or a slip at all) is a pointless maneuver unless you're completely power off on base to final...or using the slip for visibilility reasons in a blind airplane. But given popular opinion regarding how approaches should be and are flown, that would make this a rare maneuver.

At my airport, I'm more likely to see Slim Pickens do a buzz job in a B-52 than see someone do a slip.

Really? My home field has several Pitts, Stearmans, C140s, and RVs. I think we all slip more often than not.


(Rwy 27 approach has a hill with some fairly tall trees. If you want to drop in enough to make the grass you have to slip unless you want to be behind the power curve most of the approach)

 

[mantakos]

If you're trimmed for 100kts on downwind, if you reduce power and hold back-pressure on the yoke to maintain altitude, you'll slow, then the nose will "want" to drop on its own. You will not push the nose down, you will gradually ease off of the backpressure and allow the nose to ease itself down gradually. This will be a gradually reducing pull, not a push.
-harry

 

[dmccormack]

I think I said that. But a slipping turn to final shouldn't be part of your "normal" approach to landing, and if you find you need it on every approach you make, you're probably doing something wrong.

I see you said that later.

I agree -- I don't think it has to be the normal method.

But I think there's benefit in doing slips in the pattern often enough that it's instinctual. As often as most of us get to fly, that probably means about 1 in 4 landings.

 

[whifferdill]

Really? My home field has several Pitts, Stearmans, C140s, and RVs. I think we all slip more often than not.

Yep...I slip my Pitts and the Cub every time I land. But the only slip I ever see at my airport is from inside the cockpit. But I'm based at a "jetport" (ha) and most of the activity involves the flight school and flying club planes. Most of the hangars are filled with GA Cessnas and Pipers...not much of the fun stuff that folks are more likely to slip. Of course, there are other strips in the area where you'll find more taildraggers and different flying techniques.

I guess I'm just remembering my spin training years ago where we'd simulate a departure with a right turn without using the rudder, then lift the nose and stall it. The left spin from the right turn was quite interesting to see for the first time

Are you sure you actually produced a spin with NO rudder? I haven't yet flown a plane that will do this. You can drop a wing during the stall with no rudder, but this is typically not even an incipient spin entry.

 

[srbell]

Are you sure you actually produced a spin with NO rudder? I haven't yet flown a plane that will do this. You can drop a wing during the stall with no rudder, but this is typically not even an incipient spin entry.

Yes, not doubt about it. It was in a 1978 C-152. We had done many spins from level flight - pull power, hold altitude, then kick the rudder when it stalled - and sometimes it was hard to convince the plane to spin. Usually it would spin but sometimes you could only get to to wallow around in a circling mush This spin was not like that at all. My instructor (who was the DPE around here at the time but has since retired) then said he wanted to show me a situation that could be a bit surprising and we proceeded to do the departure stall while in a right turn using no rudder as described. The situation was such that right rudder should have been used to offset both the engine torque and for the right turn. Not applying it was equivalent to applying left rudder, and was definitely enough to make it snap from a right turn into a left spin rather quickly. He was right in that it did catch me off-guard until I realized what was happening. One of the lessons I learned from this was that a spin doesn't just automatically happen towards the low wing, but towards the first wing that stalls.