Psych wants something I can't provide

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I reported adjustment disorder with depressed mood on my last application- no judgment, please, it was in my insurance file and there was no way around it. No meds, but I sure did need the therapy. I'm headed for the full eval, starting next week.

Anyway, the psychologist's office manager just called and said I need to have two people available the psychologist can talk to about me. Family, colleagues, friends. Problem is, I don't have any of those people. I've hid my issues from everyone, even my spouse.

Has anyone been asked for this before? Is it a deal-breaker? I guarantee my spouse won't have anything good to say about me if I dump this on her now, and I fear for my job if I bring it up there. Seriously, how common is this? What exactly are they after? And would it be better to have the psych nail me on the record for hiding this from everyone (I'm sure she'll assume that's indicative of something pathological) or cancel the appointment and let the FAA go ahead and deny me for inadequate paperwork? I fear a denial is in my future either way, but surely one option must be less bad.
 
I've hid my issues from everyone, even my spouse

I guarantee my spouse won't have anything good to say about me if I dump this on her now

I cannot speak to the FAA needs or it's potential solution.

But in my SGOTI opinion, I think you would be better off in the long, long run if you came clean to your spouse. Yes she is going to be upset and angry that you hid this from her. But could you honestly say she is going to be less angry if you continued to hide it?

You need her support in all things, not just this adjustment disorder. So perhaps starting some healing by revealing your situation to her in the presence of a trained counselor would allow you to get this out into the open, allow her to process, and then become your ally versus an antagonist who "won't have anything good to say".

Anyhow, that's my dos centavos
 
I reported adjustment disorder with depressed mood on my last application- no judgment, please, it was in my insurance file and there was no way around it. No meds, but I sure did need the therapy. I'm headed for the full eval, starting next week.

Anyway, the psychologist's office manager just called and said I need to have two people available the psychologist can talk to about me. Family, colleagues, friends. Problem is, I don't have any of those people. I've hid my issues from everyone, even my spouse.

Has anyone been asked for this before? Is it a deal-breaker? I guarantee my spouse won't have anything good to say about me if I dump this on her now, and I fear for my job if I bring it up there. Seriously, how common is this? What exactly are they after? And would it be better to have the psych nail me on the record for hiding this from everyone (I'm sure she'll assume that's indicative of something pathological) or cancel the appointment and let the FAA go ahead and deny me for inadequate paperwork? I fear a denial is in my future either way, but surely one option must be less bad.

Who’s the customer and who’s the merchant?

If they don’t want to play ball take your money else where.

I don’t see why you can’t just tell them that their request is not appropriate and they’ll have to make due without it

This is, in the end of the day, a merchant, not the word of god
 
Tell them no and tell them why. Tell them while you are interested in resolving this issue losing your job or jeopardizing your marriage seems unnecessary to resolve a private health matter.

Having said that I do agree with AggieMike if you are not sharing issues like this with your spouse you need to.
 
[QUOTE="DFH65, post: 2870453, member:

Having said that I do agree with AggieMike if you are not sharing issues like this with your spouse you need to.[/QUOTE]

Unless she is the reason for the problem in the first place...
 
...called and said I need to have two people available the psychologist can talk to about me. Family, colleagues, friends. Problem is, I don't have any of those people. I've hid my issues from everyone, even my spouse.

We're missing some additional background and facts to help better shape a response and help the OP. Are we talking about a Class 1 for example? Since you're talking about employment I presume it's a class 1 or 2. With that in mind, you do have a couple of people that can talk about you. The issue is that you understandably don't feel comfortable with either them knowing your personal issues since you haven't shared or you're questioning the need for the psych to talk to people that know you. If it is the latter it is quite reasonable for the Dr. to talk to those that know you as there have been circumstance where commercial pilots have intentionally taken their lives and their passengers lives as well. I imagine the doctor is simply looking for the typical indicators that present when people are in distress or have suicidal ideations. I'm not implying you're in the same circumstances but only that there's a reason behind the methods.

You should reach out to the doctor's office to find out what their looking for and express your privacy concerns. Then you'll be able to break the ice with those that you refer to the office and perhaps not give total insight in your pervious work with your therapist. I imagine they will largely only speak to your state of mind and recent behavior. Certainly you'll have to make sense of why the question is being asked and I really think the pysch office has seen this before and can best guide you through the conversation.
 
If you can't share your personal struggles with your significant other, then you have more issues to worry about than employment.
 
It's for a Class 2, but I stopped freelance instructing when life got rough. Not flying for a living. Middle management in manufacturing.

I've been done with therapy for over six months, and the issue is behind me. I've learned a lot and feel confident I can handle similar stress going forward. Even on my worst days, I was highly functional without any time off work or performance issues, and having to explain to anyone that I wasn't and now they're going to get getting a call from a shrink over something I successfully hid is shameful. If they even believe me.

(Ok, and you got me - performance reviews are coming up, along with possible layoffs. Disclosing a mental condition would be detrimental to my career).
 
Honesty is the best policy in all things (excepting perhaps surprises). I do not lie to Mrs. Steingar. Sometimes I think she would rather I did, but when I tell her something she knows it's the truth. A friend who lies to his friends is a poor friend indeed. Come clean. You will likely find far more support than reproach.
 
Find a different psychiatrist to do the full evaluation with. Sounds like it’s something only that office requires because I know many people who have gone thru this and didn’t have to Have a fellow worker contacted. Think about that. This psychiatrist expects you to give him the number of someone you work with? That’s ridiculous. Have you contacted a HIMS AME? There’s a bunch of information missing here.
 
A HIMS psych evaluation often requests several other people to act as sources of collateral information. You can try explaining this to the evaluator, but my understanding is that the FAA will not like this in an evaluation. I agree that if you really want to avoid it, likely best to switch to a different psychologist. But if you are also going to have the psychiatrist exam, that may be an issue there.

I also agree that not having other outside sources of support, such as spouse or good friends, can be hard on a person.

I do think the safe thing to do here would be to pay for the consult with a senior HIMS AME such as Dr. Chien or Dr. Fowler. If this is done incorrectly, it can result in additional years of delay or thousands of dollars. The consult is often just $100-200. The current FAA aeromedical requirements are a minefield of gotchas -- it is useful to have an expert to guide you through it.
 
I just can't see what good bringing up a resolved issue with my spouse and friends would do. Beyond the humiliation of admitting I couldn't hack life, at the most it'll be harmful, and at the very least, they're all going to shrug and say, "sorry, I had no idea there was anything wrong."

But I'll look for a new doctor who doesn't have this requirement.
 
And lest I sound defensive, I'm not. I'm terrified. You try telling your spouse that marriage was such an adjustment that you needed therapy.
 
I just can't see what good bringing up a resolved issue with my spouse and friends would do. Beyond the humiliation of admitting I couldn't hack life, at the most it'll be harmful, and at the very least, they're all going to shrug and say, "sorry, I had no idea there was anything wrong."

But I'll look for a new doctor who doesn't have this requirement.

And lest I sound defensive, I'm not. I'm terrified. You try telling your spouse that marriage was such an adjustment that you needed therapy.

I'm just hoping to be a bit helpful here since you asked about this in a help forum. I would suggest discussing these issues as well with an appropriate counseling professional. Feeling that it is a humiliation that you "couldn't hack life" and being terrified to tell your spouse that marriage was a serious adjustment for you strike me as indicating a potential need for further support. This attitude could also be harmful in the future with the sorts of stresses that can show up in life and a marriage. A feeling of shame at asking for help is often associated with the subsequent development of more serious depression.

About 7% of the population in the US will develop depression in any given year and I believe the lifetime incidence approaches 50%. While most episodes spontaneously resolve in 6 months or so, this duration is decreased to about 2 months with appropriate medical and counseling therapy. So nothing to be ashamed of in seeking and obtaining appropriate counseling and psychiatric help.

Of course, the FAA requires a bunch of evaluations. But as most of the docs here will advise, first get healthy, then worry about your FAA medical.
 
I'm just hoping to be a bit helpful here since you asked about this in a help forum. I would suggest discussing these issues as well with an appropriate counseling professional. Feeling that it is a humiliation that you "couldn't hack life" and being terrified to tell your spouse that marriage was a serious adjustment for you strike me as indicating a potential need for further support. This attitude could also be harmful in the future with the sorts of stresses that can show up in life and a marriage. A feeling of shame at asking for help is often associated with the subsequent development of more serious depression.

About 7% of the population in the US will develop depression in any given year and I believe the lifetime incidence approaches 50%. While most episodes spontaneously resolve in 6 months or so, this duration is decreased to about 2 months with appropriate medical and counseling therapy. So nothing to be ashamed of in seeking and obtaining appropriate counseling and psychiatric help.

Of course, the FAA requires a bunch of evaluations. But as most of the docs here will advise, first get healthy, then worry about your FAA medical.

It sounds like you don't know about the stigma surrounding mental illness?
 
Tell them no and tell them why. Tell them while you are interested in resolving this issue losing your job or jeopardizing your marriage seems unnecessary to resolve a private health matter.

Having said that I do agree with AggieMike if you are not sharing issues like this with your spouse you need to.
Well, if you do that the report Sez, “declined”, same as “not forthcoming”. So you fail. Great advice DFH65.....uh huh....

if the spouse doesn’t know you are totally isolated, and that is bad....too.....Peter Steinmetz is correct. Isolation isn't healthy.....

say, the psych verifies you are isolated....then you get connected and GET BETTER
.....
 
Well, if you do that the report Sez, “declined”, same as “not forthcoming”. So you fail. Great advice DFH65.....uh huh....

if the spouse doesn’t know you are totally isolated, and that is bad....too.....Peter Steinmetz is correct. Isolation isn't healthy.....

say, the psych verifies you are isolated....then you get connected and GET BETTER
.....

I guess I don't understand. I'm not isolated. I never was. Even while going through therapy, I still saw friends, still got married, still vacationed, worked, etc as if nothing was wrong. Are we supposed to cry about our problems to everyone who'll listen now? That's not how I was raised (nor most of my age group, I would expect). I fixed the problem without bothering my friends and family about it, and moved on.

I am better. 100%. I wouldn't be seeking certification if I wasn't.
 
I find it somewhat out of the ordinary - even HIMS psychological testing does not require this.
 
It sounds like you don't know about the stigma surrounding mental illness?

Yes, I am aware. That stigma is gradually decreasing because almost everyone either has had a depressive episode or knows someone who does.

You can of course keep this between yourself and the professionals and your spouse.

Just a suggestion to try and be helpful. Hope you do well and are successful in your application.
 
To the OP

As a professional pilot with a mental health issue (in remission), I can relate to fear of stigma. I initially felt the same way.

Once you open up to friends and family, you will be shocked how many people have or are currently seeking treatment for mental health. I found it comforting to know that I was not alone, even among those in my close circle.

I tried keeping it a secret from everyone (except my wife) and I found honesty and transparency much better.

I agree with the others. If you can’t talk to people about your issue/condition then you are not healed. You are lying to yourself.

Perhaps your doc thinks you are not being honest and that is the reason he wants to talk to those close to you. He thinks you are lying and he is probably right.
 
Just a suggestion to try and be helpful. Hope you do well and are successful in your application.
When trying to help folks, do you ever feel as if you're actually dealing with an "Equine Hydration Conundrum"?
 
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Sounds more like what you go through to get a security clearance these days.
 
Confess your sins!!!

Keep in mind we are only a few hundred years from this crap

puritans4.jpeg



With the average human life being 60ish years, that’s not quite long enough to really breed that nonsense out of a society, add administrative law into that, mix in some power trip hacks who couldn’t make it in the private sector, and well that’s part of the problem.

Could be worse, at least we don’t have a FAR for handfasting


“...church courts dealt with marital matters. Ecclesiastical law recognised two forms of handfasting, sponsalia per verba de praesenti and sponsalia per verba de futuro. In sponsalia de praesenti, the most usual form, the couple declared they there and then accepted each other as man and wife. The sponsalia de futuro form was less binding, as the couple took hands only to declare their intention to marry each other at some future date. The latter was closer to a modern engagement and could, in theory, be ended with the consent of both parties – but only providing intercourse had not occurred. If intercourse did take place, then the sponsalia de futuro "was automatically converted into de iure marriage".


Despite the validity of handfasting, it was expected to be solemnised by a church wedding fairly soon afterwards. Penalties might follow for those who did not comply.”
 
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... that’s not quite long enough to really breed that nonsense out of a society,...

You will never breed out all the nonsense. Why? One word: ALCOHOL. While I don't drink I understand that the number of observable genetic deficiencies one notices prior to reproduction is directly proportional to the amount of alcohol consumed by both parties. :p
 
You will never breed out all the nonsense. Why? One word: ALCOHOL. While I don't drink I understand that the number of observable genetic deficiencies one notices prior to reproduction is directly proportional to the amount of alcohol consumed by both parties. :p

fixed your ratio ... directly inversely proportional
 
I guess I don't understand. I'm not isolated. I never was. Even while going through therapy, I still saw friends, still got married, still vacationed, worked, etc as if nothing was wrong. Are we supposed to cry about our problems to everyone who'll listen now? That's not how I was raised (nor most of my age group, I would expect). I fixed the problem without bothering my friends and family about it, and moved on.

I am better. 100%. I wouldn't be seeking certification if I wasn't.
So, you hid this from your wife and didn’t confide. Your psych has no one to talk to because you never shared and you aren’t isolated...

Do you see no problem with this set of statements?
So why might the 8:46 AM poster NOT be correct...or maybe he is?
 
I think people are confused. I did share. I shared with a therapist and a psychiatrist, because I wanted to make this sure wasn't something more serious. I was open and honest and told both of them everything-things which would be very hurtful to my spouse to hear now. My director has a history of publicly mocking mental illness, so yes, I didn't tell anyone at work. Since I was so high functioning that I didn't miss a beat, I didn't realize not disclosing was such an issue.

Maybe marriage counseling would have been a better choice, but let's not pretend I wasn't being honest.
 
Maybe marriage counseling would have been a better choice, but let's not pretend I wasn't being honest.

For better or worse, the FAA has their standards and the tests they will want to take you through. If you want to have an FAA medical you will either need to comply or find some very clever workarounds. And remember that any false statements on the application are construed as felonies under Federal law. So most people here would recommend just putting up with it, as over-generalized and not customized to your circumstances as it may be.

I certainly don't mean to defend the efficacy or justice of this FAA aeromedical system in any way. But that is the way it is.
 
For better or worse, the FAA has their standards and the tests they will want to take you through. If you want to have an FAA medical you will either need to comply or find some very clever workarounds. And remember that any false statements on the application are construed as felonies under Federal law. So most people here would recommend just putting up with it, as over-generalized and not customized to your circumstances as it may be.

I certainly don't mean to defend the efficacy or justice of this FAA aeromedical system in any way. But that is the way it is.

I AM complying with what the FAA wants (without argument), and I'm not sure why you brought up lying to them. The original question was about how common this request from the doctor was, and everyone's treating me like I'm still sick just for asking - and then wondering why I don't tell anyone.
 
I AM complying with what the FAA wants (without argument), and I'm not sure why you brought up lying to them.

Good policy to follow because the penalties for trying to proceed in any other way are severe and sometimes people get tempted.

My understanding is that the request for collateral interviews is common when the evaluator has reason to believe there may be more to the history than has been disclosed. I believe you also have the answer from Dr. Chien that if it is requested and you don't provide the people to talk to, it will most likely be a deal breaker.

I've said what I will say about the issue of talking to people. Good luck in your application.
 
I find it somewhat out of the ordinary - even HIMS psychological testing does not require this.

@PeterNSteinmetz

But the other HIMS AME says it is in fact out of the ordinary to request to speak with other people. Which is it? Because that wasn’t part of my HIMS program.

After meeting numerous people in the HIMS program I’ve noticed that every HIMS AME gives different answers to questions that are really straightforward. I know in my case personally I’ve seen Ame’s lie in order to either A. Make more money, B. because they’re *******s, then there are of course the ones who tell the truth (about 50% in my experience). For being an extremely strict regulatory body that goes overboard way to much of the time the faa gives HIMS Ame’s way to much leeway to mistreat/mishandle someone’s case.

ps- I am in no way saying this about the 2 HIMS ame’s who provide guidance on this forum.
 
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@PeterNSteinmetz

But the other HIMS AME says it is in fact out of the ordinary to request to speak with other people. Which is it? Because that wasn’t part of my HIMS program.

Good question and I don’t know a solid answer.

A quick google search did turn up other evaluators who mention it, but no actual data on fractions of the time it is required.

Note that the actual psychological or psychiatric exams are not generally performed by the AMEs, so they may not have a direct sense of this.

I suspect this fraction with collateral interviews may not be known. It is probably more likely if the evaluator gets the sense that there is more to the story than they are hearing from the applicant. These evaluators can be forensic psychologists or psychiatrists. These people are often evaluating criminals, so tend toward the suspicious side.
 
I reported adjustment disorder with depressed mood on my last application- no judgment, please, it was in my insurance file and there was no way around it. No meds, but I sure did need the therapy. I'm headed for the full eval, starting next week.

Anyway, the psychologist's office manager just called and said I need to have two people available the psychologist can talk to about me. Family, colleagues, friends. Problem is, I don't have any of those people. I've hid my issues from everyone, even my spouse.
I work with multiple HIMs psychiatrists. External verification is a standard veracity tool....
 
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