private pilot oral exam

Okay, fine, my question was (and is) why wouldn't the FSDO correct the situation at any time, e.g. why couldn't it could still be appealed?
I don't know whether that's possible or not. I'd have to take a stroll through 8900.1 to find out, and the sun is way past the yardarm, so I'm heading to the bar downstairs for a drink and dinner.
On a side note, some FSDO's do more than look at the failure area. I was assured by my DPE that he had to explain to his boss my choice to down the aircraft on a tachometer failure. As always, YMWV.
I don't follow that at all.
 
I don't follow that at all.

Read it again in the morning. Enjoy your dinner.

(here's a hint: all it said was that at least the Denver FSDO looks at more than the IACRA report - They actually talk to the DPE about the disapproved or discontinued checkrides.)
 
Is that a joke, or are you honestly surprised at my surprise that a DE would regurgitate bad information without verifying its accuracy?

I'm surprised you think DEs are somehow immune from nonsense.

Some have been DEs a long time, and therefore firmly entrenched in the old boy network.
 
Unless the information is inaccurate, yes, there is, based on the PP-A PTS and the C-152 POH.

Thanks for the correction on the PTS....

However, I have known a person or two that would misrepresent the facts in this situation to make themselves appear the victim. How about you?
 
Thanks for the correction on the PTS....

However, I have known a person or two that would misrepresent the facts in this situation to make themselves appear the victim. How about you?

This is why I try not to post anything.
 
Too bad your instructor didn't know better, because that bust should have been appealed and would have been overturned. There is no reason at all not to use flaps in a slip in a C-152, and a DPE should know that. You would have gotten a free retake and had the bust removed from your record.

IF the only reason he failed was this point, maybe.

But my guess is the slip with flaps comment was the final straw.

I've never heard of someone failing a PP oral on just this question -- have you?
 
But my guess is the slip with flaps comment was the final straw.
If that's true, then as I said above, the examiner was already operating outside FAA Order 8900.2.
I've never heard of someone failing a PP oral on just this question -- have you?
Which question? I thought this happened on the flight portion, not the ground portion.
 
This is why I try not to post anything.

Why, because your account of events may be different than the flight examiners? Or because I didn't just assume that you provided an impartial account of events?

Perhaps it happened EXACTLY as you described, but who does that benefit?
 
If that's true, then as I said above, the examiner was already operating outside FAA Order 8900.2.
Which question? I thought this happened on the flight portion, not the ground portion.

It is a bit ambiguous, but it appears the slip with flaps issue came during the flight portion:
The answer is #1. The examiner asked every little thing for three hours. In a room and building with no heat. In the dead of winter. After three hours I was shivering and exhausted.

I was doing great until the very end, even though I was frozen. Apparently you are not supposed to use flaps in a Cessna in a forward slip. I did all my training in a Cherokee, and then the Cherokee had maintenance issues that the owner refused to fix, so I had to move to a 152. Somehow a forward slip never came up. I was busted for that, and then I was so rattled, upset, frozen, and exhausted, I couldn't do any landings after that. In retrospect I should have stopped after the oral and said I was too cold to continue.

My guess is if he was allowed to continue, the slip with flaps was a comment, not a bust.

The inability to land afterwards would certainly cause the DE to rightly conclude the applicant was not able to meet the PP PTS minimum standards.
 
It is a bit ambiguous, but it appears the slip with flaps issue came during the flight portion:


My guess is if he was allowed to continue, the slip with flaps was a comment, not a bust.

The inability to land afterwards would certainly cause the DE to rightly conclude the applicant was not able to meet the PP PTS minimum standards.
That was my understanding as well. The issue with the flaps unsettled the candidate and the subsequent poor performance generated the bust. If that's true I don't see any way to "reverse" the bust but I still say the DPE acted inappropriately and it would be nice to see that corrected somehow.
 
That's the kind of problem that is good to have. ;)

In the case of people who are very knowledgeable, I've found it difficult to be around them and not learn something.

I agree. I said it was ironic not wrong.:smile:
 
I just read thirty-five responses and it is almost unanimous: Asjal should have passed and the DE screwed him!

Just a thought, but maybe he didn't pass because he didn't fly the Cessna well after receiving all of the instruction in a Cherokee. Maybe the whole check ride was marginal and coming in high enough on approach to warrant the forward slip was the breaking point.

Whatever the case, there is hardly enough information to condemn the DE for his decision. Personally, I was supplied with a list of recommended examiners that had an established history with the flight school. I would guess that was the case her as well.

Just my 2 cents.
I didn't condemn the DPE for the bust, without being there it's hard to tell who was responsible for that and Asjal admitted he wasn't able to do the required landings after being rattled with the flaps issue. Rather my complaint against the DPE (based solely on Asjal's own words) is that he essentially abused the candidate by conducting a 3 hour ordeal in an uncomfortably cold room then hit him with some BS about the use of flaps. But you make a valid point, it's quite possible that the switch from a Piper to a Cessna late in the game contributed to the bust. Of course there's no evidence to support that either at this pointl.
 
The inability to land afterwards would certainly cause the DE to rightly conclude the applicant was not able to meet the PP PTS minimum standards.
I suggest you re-read the post. He said the bust occurred for the slip with flaps, and after that he couldn't continue. Once the examiner notifies you that you've failed, it is the applicant's option whether or not to continue, and if the applicant chooses to stop, nothing thereafter counts for or against the applicant.
 
Yes, but busting doesn't really qualify as "distract or rattle" in my opinion.
That's correct. Telling the applicant s/he has failed is not a "realistic distraction," it's a notification of disapproval, and at that point, the practical test is over unless the applicant asks to continue on the tasks not yet performed.
 
I suggest you re-read the post. He said the bust occurred for the slip with flaps, and after that he couldn't continue. Once the examiner notifies you that you've failed, it is the applicant's option whether or not to continue, and if the applicant chooses to stop, nothing thereafter counts for or against the applicant.

Maybe I need Hooked on phonics, but I can't tell if the announcement of failure happened before, during, or after whatever.
 
I was doing great until the very end, even though I was frozen. Apparently you are not supposed to use flaps in a Cessna in a forward slip. I did all my training in a Cherokee, and then the Cherokee had maintenance issues that the owner refused to fix, so I had to move to a 152. Somehow a forward slip never came up. I was busted for that, and then I was so rattled, upset, frozen, and exhausted, I couldn't do any landings after that. In retrospect I should have stopped after the oral and said I was too cold to continue.
AsjaL can you clarify one thing here? Did the DPE indicate that you had failed the checkride for performing a forward slip with flaps?

Or did you mean he objected to that in a way that caused you to perform poorly on subsequent landing tasks (or did you just ask to quit at that point)?

My initial take on the above statement was that you used the word "busted" to mean that the DPE objected (strenuously?) but didn't terminate the checkride at that point, but I can see how it could be taken either way. The comment about being rattled...exhausted that followed is what led me to believe that the checkride could have or even did continue past the incident with the slip.
 
On my PP checkride (in a 1971 C172), the DPE asked for a forward slip. I already had 20 or so degrees flaps out. I give him a slip (not quite as aggressive as I would now). He says, "nah, that's not a slip. this is." and proceeds to roll the thing on her side (or so it seemed at the time).

Always learning...
 
Yesterday, I was flying under the hood at night with my instructor. He helped me get aligned for the left down wind.When I was abeam the runway, he let me know so I could begin the decent. I had to perform my base leg and a bit of my final on the instruments and intuition. When I opened to hood, the plane was extremely high with full flaps just finishing their extension. I immediately requested missed and he replied "nope, full slip!" I quickly asked about slipping a 172 with flaps because of this post. His reply was simply that it is fine and is done safely all the time and to just watch my air speed. Sure enough, I slipped all the way down and landed a bit long.

This CFI has thousands of hours and I really trust his guidance. So, to fail your test over something like this seems absurd.
 
Yesterday, I was flying under the hood at night with my instructor. He helped me get aligned for the left down wind.When I was abeam the runway, he let me know so I could begin the decent. I had to perform my base leg and a bit of my final on the instruments and intuition. When I opened to hood, the plane was extremely high with full flaps just finishing their extension. I immediately requested missed and he replied "nope, full slip!" I quickly asked about slipping a 172 with flaps because of this post. His reply was simply that it is fine and is done safely all the time and to just watch my air speed. Sure enough, I slipped all the way down and landed a bit long.

This CFI has thousands of hours and I really trust his guidance. So, to fail your test over something like this seems absurd.

Sanforce: are you doing your IR training right now? If that is the case, aren't you PIC on that flight and if you request (I don't even think you need to REQUEST that at all) no, if you decide to go around, then its your call to go around, not the instructor's call...I could be wrong here.
 
Sanforce: are you doing your IR training right now? If that is the case, aren't you PIC on that flight and if you request (I don't even think you need to REQUEST that at all) no, if you decide to go around, then its your call to go around, not the instructor's call...I could be wrong here.

It's a training scenario -- the CFII was most likely reinforcing that it's often better to slip to lose a bit excess altitude when you have the runway in sight than to climb back up into IMC going missed.
 
Sanforce: are you doing your IR training right now? If that is the case, aren't you PIC on that flight and if you request (I don't even think you need to REQUEST that at all) no, if you decide to go around, then its your call to go around, not the instructor's call...I could be wrong here.
First, on all training flights, the instructor is automatically PIC by legal interpretation of the FAA Chief Counsel as stated in an enforcement action before the NTSB (Administrator v. Hamre). Second, sometimes it's necessary in training to push a trainee into doing something the trainee doesn't really want to do in order to achieve a training objective.
 
Sanforce: are you doing your IR training right now? If that is the case, aren't you PIC on that flight and if you request (I don't even think you need to REQUEST that at all) no, if you decide to go around, then its your call to go around, not the instructor's call...I could be wrong here.
There are times in instrument flying where one needs to make a landing work because it's a better option then going missed. I've seen some pilots that are way too "go missed/go around" happy and as a result aren't very good at controlling their airplane.

If you have to go missed, or go around, fine. But there are times where an instructor will know the landing is easily possible and wants to show the student that as well. Learning their airplane's limits will make them a better pilot.
 
Dutchess, I was actually just doing hood time for my VR, which is turning out to be some of my favorite training. I definitely feel comfortable, as long as my instructor is there to look outside. It's a great way to learn to fly in the area based on known locations and times in route. I came in high on the landing because I didn't give enough time before I turned into the base leg. Next time, i'll know!

On the full flap full slip landing, we had plenty of runway to use, I just felt a little uncomfortable with the situation. I'm sure he was right there with me on the controls just in case a need arose.
 
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I'm sure he was right there with me on the controls just in case a need arose.

A good instructor is always doing that while making sure you don't realize it. :)

Sounds like your instructor was teaching you how to salvage a botched-up pattern or approach. That's a very valuable skill. Out of about 640 landings, I've only done about 5 actual go-arounds (i.e. not when the instructor said "There's a deer on the runway!"). Sometimes you need to do one, but most of the time you don't. A lot of times it is safer to salvage a landing than it is to go around.
 
While there are circumstances when it's better to salvage a less-than-great approach, it's usually better to go around. Part of the problem is recognizing how far off desired parameters you can be while still being close enough to turn it back into a safe landing. Sometimes, an instructor may push a trainee's limits a bit to show the trainee that s/he is better than s/he thinks. However, there are limits to that, too, and instructors have to recognize when the trainee is really in over his/her head. But if you have a good instructor in whom you have faith, and your instructor says to press on, unless you're absolutely certain you'll bend the plane in doing so, you should give it a go -- you may learn something important from the experience.
 
If you get the plane on the ground safely then I find it difficult to argue that one way is better than the other. More precise or elegant, sure, but better? The results are we're on the ground and not dead.

However let's go with a situation like an engine out where you only have one shot and go-around is not an option. Put it on the runway or don't. I don't care how good your approach was if you came up short and we hit the ILS lights. A botched up approach that was then salvaged and didn't get us on the ground until halfway down the runway, but did have us stopped and alive by the end is my preference there.

I'm with Jesse.
 
A good instructor is always doing that while making sure you don't realize it. :)

Sounds like your instructor was teaching you how to salvage a botched-up pattern or approach. That's a very valuable skill. Out of about 640 landings, I've only done about 5 actual go-arounds (i.e. not when the instructor said "There's a deer on the runway!"). Sometimes you need to do one, but most of the time you don't. A lot of times it is safer to salvage a landing than it is to go around.

My ability to perform a stable and proper approach was weak enough that I learned a lot about how to salvage a bad approach and make a good landing. Sometime it helps to be less skillful.:D
 
My ability to perform a stable and proper approach was weak enough that I learned a lot about how to salvage a bad approach and make a good landing. Sometime it helps to be less skillful.:D

I was thinking the same thing about my approach/landing experience. :)
 
I also had my first "engine out" on that last ride. We were doing touch and go's on a runway that never ended. Seriously, there was plenty of room for the space shuttle if it ever needs to divert to Colorado. Right after lift off, my instructor pulled it in. It REALLY startled me, being 50 ft with no power. He helped me get the nose down while I got my nerves under control and applied the flaps.

I was ready for the next one though, which happened about 30 seconds later. Early in the climb, at abt 300 agl (or so) he pulled it again. I got the nose down, but he was showing me how unlikely it would be to turn the plane all the way around for a runway landing, if this situation ever occurred in real life. Instead, I added flaps and aimed towards a field.

Keeping with his tradition, I had my next one soon after while we entered the down wind. Again, no room for a runway landing at this point because traffic was about to touch down. I added flaps and shot for a long open field, which would have worked out well. I had a little trouble as I was trying to climb away from the power lines, which we easily had the altitude to clear. Climbing wasn't the answer without power!

Guess what... we had another one right after this! This one occurred right before I turned base in the pattern. This was by far the easiest to handle. I shot a standard approach but without flaps until I was certain we had the field. I landed long, but we had more than a mile to spare.

It was a fun and slightly nerve racking experience. Back to back to back to back, for my first time! I'm thinking he was driving home the point that it could happen at any time and that each situation has a different solution.
 
Back to back to back to back, for my first time! I'm thinking he was driving home the point that it could happen at any time and that each situation has a different solution.


If you're flying an airplane with back to back to back engine outs, you'd be better off in gliders.

:yesnod:
 
If you get the plane on the ground safely then I find it difficult to argue that one way is better than the other. More precise or elegant, sure, but better? The results are we're on the ground and not dead.

One of the habits that's hard to extinguish in Commercial students is squaring off the pattern.:frown2:

Dude, your engine's dead -- LAND!!!!

They're amazed when we touch down halfway down the runway and still have 1500' to spare.

"You can do that?" :rofl:
 
I also had my first "engine out" on that last ride. We were doing touch and go's on a runway that never ended. Seriously, there was plenty of room for the space shuttle if it ever needs to divert to Colorado. Right after lift off, my instructor pulled it in. It REALLY startled me, being 50 ft with no power. He helped me get the nose down while I got my nerves under control and applied the flaps.

I was ready for the next one though, which happened about 30 seconds later. Early in the climb, at abt 300 agl (or so) he pulled it again. I got the nose down, but he was showing me how unlikely it would be to turn the plane all the way around for a runway landing, if this situation ever occurred in real life. Instead, I added flaps and aimed towards a field.

Keeping with his tradition, I had my next one soon after while we entered the down wind. Again, no room for a runway landing at this point because traffic was about to touch down. I added flaps and shot for a long open field, which would have worked out well. I had a little trouble as I was trying to climb away from the power lines, which we easily had the altitude to clear. Climbing wasn't the answer without power!

Guess what... we had another one right after this! This one occurred right before I turned base in the pattern. This was by far the easiest to handle. I shot a standard approach but without flaps until I was certain we had the field. I landed long, but we had more than a mile to spare.

It was a fun and slightly nerve racking experience. Back to back to back to back, for my first time! I'm thinking he was driving home the point that it could happen at any time and that each situation has a different solution.

Sounds like you have an evil CFI. Good! It's good practice. Remember that engines are supremely unreliable... when a CFI is in the plane. :)

When I'm flying along in a single I'm always looking for a place to land. Obviously that gets a little more difficult when you're in IMC, but the concept still applies. In a twin it changes to where the closest airport is (and in bad weather that has an approach I can get in with), but the concept still applies. Always know what your out is.

One of the habits that's hard to extinguish in Commercial students is squaring off the pattern.:frown2:

Dude, your engine's dead -- LAND!!!!

They're amazed when we touch down halfway down the runway and still have 1500' to spare.

"You can do that?" :rofl:

For sure. The commercial rating reminds you "Hey, dude, fly the plane!" The engine out stuff is good practice for anyone. Plus it's one of the more fun things to do as an instructor, at least if you sign your name "ECFI" - Evil CFI. :D
 
Sounds like you have an evil CFI. Good! It's good practice. Remember that engines are supremely unreliable... when a CFI is in the plane. :)

When I'm flying along in a single I'm always looking for a place to land. Obviously that gets a little more difficult when you're in IMC, but the concept still applies. In a twin it changes to where the closest airport is (and in bad weather that has an approach I can get in with), but the concept still applies. Always know what your out is.

lol, I would say he is an ECFI for experienced. Evil is much to harsh for this guy.

If an engine fails in a smaller twin (say a 4 seater,) how hard is it to control the aircraft? My only experience with twins is in XPlane, and some of the smaller ones seem almost impossible to control with an engine out and the other humming along at full. This is even more exaggerated on the ground. One of these days i'll get my rating in twins... after IR... after VR. :smile:
 
It depends completely on the airframe and the speed you're going. In the Aztec, it's pretty easy. That's the only twin I've flown, so that's all I can tell you. I've heard that Twinkies are more difficult, Aerostars way more difficult.
 
If an engine fails in a smaller twin (say a 4 seater,) how hard is it to control the aircraft?
Depends on the plane and how much speed you have. Most light twins at any normal flying speed are controllable with reasonable ease, but down at the bottom end of the speed range, some can be a real handful.
My only experience with twins is in XPlane, and some of the smaller ones seem almost impossible to control with an engine out and the other humming along at full.
Part of the problem is that in a real airplane, you can feel it trying to yaw and put in approximately the right amount of rudder based on that feel. You don't have that feel in a PC-based flight game.
This is even more exaggerated on the ground.
That's for sure. Most light twins I've flown can't be taxied on one engine, because the nosewheel steering hasn't enough authority to keep the plane from turning. In fact, the FAA prohibits examiners from pulling an engine above 1/2 Vmc on the takeoff roll, because it's too likely the airplane will be weeds before the examinee can get the other engine back.
 
lol, I would say he is an ECFI for experienced. Evil is much to harsh for this guy.

If an engine fails in a smaller twin (say a 4 seater,) how hard is it to control the aircraft? My only experience with twins is in XPlane, and some of the smaller ones seem almost impossible to control with an engine out and the other humming along at full. This is even more exaggerated on the ground. One of these days i'll get my rating in twins... after IR... after VR. :smile:

This may be more than you wanted to know but...

This depends greatly on your airspeed and bank angle. Twins have a "V speed" called Vmc (some have one for in the air: Vmca and one for on the runway:Vmcg). Below this indicated airspeed the ailerons and rudder lack the authority to keep the plane flying in a straight line without rolling over. The published Vmc is based on a maximum of 5° bank (more on that later) into the good engine and was determined by slowing the plane with one engine windmilling (prop driving the engine). If your airspeed is higher than that the ailerons and rudder get more and more effective making it easier to control the plane. In my twin (a 55 series Beech Baron) the published Vmc is 81 KIAS. At 100 KIAS (Vyse the speed that provides the most climb or least descent rate on one engine) it's fairly easy to keep the plane right side up even without the bank into the good engine and at a typical cruise speed (150-170 KIAS) you can hardly tell when one engine quits except for the deceleration. The props on most twins are designed to allow them to "feather" which means to turn the blades so they are aligned with the airflow which reduces the drag significantly and that also makes it easier to control the airplane.

Assuming you retain control the other issue is a huge loss in the ability to climb or even hold altitude. This is due to the fact that nearly half of the available power of a piston powered twin is needed just to keep the plane in the air in level flight. The loss of one engine cuts the available power in half but decreases the "excess" power (power above what's needed to maintain level flight) by 90% or more. In stock form my airplane will climb at something like 1800 FPM under standard conditions at max weight. With only one engine running and everything cleaned up (gear and flaps up plus the dead engine's prop feathered) the climb rate decreases to a bit less than 400 FPM and you must bank into the dead engine about 2° to get that minimal climb.
 
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