Prior to solo time

[skidoo]

So, the other day, I was looking back through my original flight logs and realized that I did not solo until I had about 20 hours. In looking at those first 20 hours, I see that I was introduced to spins after the first three hours, and after that, I had loops, rolls, inverted flight, and a bunch of other aerobatic maneuvers. In total, it looks like about half the time included aerobatic maneuvers of some sort. Since I was 14 when I started, I wasn't focused on trying to solo, but rather just going to enjoy the flight and learn. It took me 2 years to get that first 20 hours.

I haven't done spins or aerobatic flight since but after 40 years, I still enjoy it in my mind, and it was a great experience. So, I am wondering how common is it now for students to be exposed to spins or aerobatics prior to solo?

 

[GauzeGuy]

I haven't done spins or aerobatic flight since but after 40 years, I still enjoy it in my mind, and it was a great experience. So, I am wondering how common is it now for students to be exposed to spins or aerobatics prior to solo?

Unlikely. Spin training is not required.

An uncoordinated power on stall is the closest that most will come to a spin. Don't ask how I know.

 

[Jaybird180]

I could see it common for a 14 year old, since they can't solo. Why not?

 

[Corpsmaide]

An uncoordinated power on stall is the closest that most will come to a spin. Don't ask how I know. [/QUOTE]


What he said

 

[tangopapa]

Unlikely. Spin training is not required.

An uncoordinated power on stall is the closest that most will come to a spin. Don't ask how I know.

I had that happen on my 3rd lesson. Scared the %$#! out of me.

 

[tmyers]

Hmmmmmm, I soloed in 9 hours but did not do any aerobatics, only stalls.

You really did loops and rolls in your PPL training?

 

[tangopapa]

Hmmmmmm, I soloed in 9 hours but did not do any aerobatics, only stalls.

You really did loops and rolls in your PPL training?

Perhaps when the OP did his training, his CFI was an old school guy who taught spins when the FAA still required it to be taught, prior to 1949, and was still doing it for some reason. He did say it has been 40 years since his primary training.

Sounds like fun.

 

[dwalt]

Unlikely. Spin training is not required.

An uncoordinated power on stall is the closest that most will come to a spin. Don't ask how I know.

- although now that the Decathlon is back on the rental line, I'm thinking of going up w/ my CFI and doing some spins (and other fun stuff )

 

[Jeanie]

Go for it! I highly recommend upset recovery training including upright spins for anyone who's stomach can take it. Remember eat a small breakfast before you fly. Don't do unusual attitude and aerobatics on an empty stomach. But do avoid donuts (don't ask how I know and things like huevos rancheros!

 

[skidoo]

Hmmmmmm, I soloed in 9 hours but did not do any aerobatics, only stalls.

You really did loops and rolls in your PPL training?

Yes! Loops, rolls, barrel rolls, snap rolls, immelmann, hammerhead, inverted, spins, etc... Most within the first 14 hours when I was 14-15 years of age. Back then, they had a relatively new 150 aerobat and a Citabria in their fleet. I think the instructors looked for any reason to use them! I do feel very fortunate for that exposure, and have never felt any quezyness or sickness at any time while flying.

 

[wickedsprint]

I had to ask for spin training. Spins are fun.

 

[LDJones]

If my student is training in an airplane approved for spins, I introduce spin recovery before they solo. For those in training in something else, I make a spin-approved aircraft available if they have an interest, but don't require it.

Aerobatics beyond that would be fairly rare, but I'm sure its been done.

 

[poadeleted20]

Extremely rare, for a lot of reasons, starting with lack of appropriate aircraft, continuing through the high cost of flight training and the desire to keep time to license down to something in the same ballpark as the regulatory minimum 40 hours.

 

[Meanee]

I wanted my CFI to do spins with me in a Cessna, but he was reluctant. Said he'd rather show it to me in his Yak 52. Should do it this spring.

 

[MassPilot]

I wanted my CFI to do spins with me in a Cessna, but he was reluctant. Said he'd rather show it to me in his Yak 52. Should do it this spring.

My school won't allow their C172s to be spun because it's bad for the gyros and those planes are sometimes flown in IMC.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Had to request it for Private, then again for CFI.

 

[wickedsprint]

I wanted my CFI to do spins with me in a Cessna, but he was reluctant. Said he'd rather show it to me in his Yak 52. Should do it this spring.

A friend of mine was killed in his personal Yak 52 in 2010.

 

[MachFly]

So, I am wondering how common is it now for students to be exposed to spins or aerobatics prior to solo?

I was doing spins before I soloed. I thought it was important (and still do) to be able to enter and recover the aircraft from a spin.
If it was up to me it would have been one of the required maneuvers for PPL.

 

[MachFly]

I wanted my CFI to do spins with me in a Cessna, but he was reluctant. Said he'd rather show it to me in his Yak 52. Should do it this spring.

I've never flown a Yak 52 but I suspect it handles very differently from a C172. The point of practicing spins is not to just know the basic concept of entering and exiting a spin (you can learn that on the ground), but to be able to safely do it in the aircraft that you fly. Some aircraft will even have completely nonstandard recovery procedures.
If your instructor refuses to do spins with you in a C172 then I recommend you find an instructor who will.

 

[poadeleted20]

I was doing spins before I soloed. I thought it was important (and still do) to be able to enter and recover the aircraft from a spin.

Why? The FAA's position is that if you are taught not to enter an inadvertant spin, you don't have to be proficient in spin recovery to be a safe pilot. Given the number of spin training accidents which occurred when spins were required for Pvt, I tend to agree with them. And there is no reason I can think of for all pilots to be proficient in spin entry -- it's not exactly a maneuver one needs to be a safe light plane pilot.

 

[MachFly]

Why? The FAA's position is that if you are taught not to enter an inadvertant spin, you don't have to be proficient in spin recovery to be a safe pilot. Given the number of spin training accidents which occurred when spins were required for Pvt, I tend to agree with them. And there is no reason I can think of for all pilots to be proficient in spin entry -- it's not exactly a maneuver one needs to be a safe light plane pilot.

Granted being able to recover from a spin is a lot more important that being able to enter one. However if you are well familiar with spin enter procedures (and characteristics) for your particular aircraft then the odds that you will accidently enter a spin are much lower.

When I first started flying the DA40 (on my 1st or 2nd flight) I accidently spun it (well incipient spin). As far as I remember I was trying to enter a stall and the rudder ended up being a lot more effective than I expected. Since then every time I wanted to stall the 40 I never even came close to the spin because I knew what to expect from that aircraft.


Regarding what you said about a lot of spin accidents in training when spins were required. No one ever said that flying was safe, flight training is certainly not safe. I am not a CFI, however when I was doing my training (especially for SEAL) I flown with a number of different instructors (10+). What I noticed is that if training is done in a more dangerous manner then you learn a lot more. For example if a student makes a mistake and the instructor take the plane right away then the student never learns how to fix that mistake. Maybe the instructor will later explain it in the post-flight biffing but the student would still end up with no practical experience of fixing such a mistake.

 

[Jaybird180]

Granted being able to recover from a spin is a lot more important that being able to enter one. However if you are well familiar with spin enter procedures (and characteristics) for your particular aircraft then the odds that you will accidently enter a spin are much lower.

When I first started flying the DA40 (on my 1st or 2nd flight) I accidently spun it (well incipient spin). As far as I remember I was trying to enter a stall and the rudder ended up being a lot more effective than I expected. Since then every time I wanted to stall the 40 I never even came close to the spin because I knew what to expect from that aircraft.


Regarding what you said about a lot of spin accidents in training when spins were required. No one ever said that flying was safe, flight training is certainly not safe. I am not a CFI, however when I was doing my training (especially for SEAL) I flown with a number of different instructors (10+). What I noticed is that if training is done in a more dangerous manner then you learn a lot more. For example if a student makes a mistake and the instructor take the plane right away then the student never learns how to fix that mistake. Maybe the instructor will later explain it in the post-flight biffing but the student would still end up with no practical experience of fixing such a mistake.

I wonder if you entered the incipient spin from an accelerated stall, which IIRC is Not-Approved in the DA-40 (???)

 

[LDJones]

Why? The FAA's position is that if you are taught not to enter an inadvertant spin, you don't have to be proficient in spin recovery to be a safe pilot. Given the number of spin training accidents which occurred when spins were required for Pvt, I tend to agree with them. And there is no reason I can think of for all pilots to be proficient in spin entry -- it's not exactly a maneuver one needs to be a safe light plane pilot.

The value in my mind is the student that has a fear of the spin boogeyman. I don't teach them so they're proficient to perform them. I do it to give confidence that it needn't be something to live in fear of....and assure a thorough understanding of spin avoidance.

Last time I looked at the stats it was a six of one, half a dozen of the other in terms of training accidents while was a requirement to spin accidents since it was removed. But I run across more pilots now with almost an irrational fear of spins because they've been built up as the worst thing that can happen to you in an airplane.

 

[MachFly]

I wonder if you entered the incipient spin from an accelerated stall, which IIRC is Not-Approved in the DA-40 (???)

No it was a normal stall, can't remember whether it was power or off. It's possible that I'm forgetting something, it was a few years back, but I seriously doubt that I was doing an accelerated stall. As far as I remember it was a rent checkout, they don't normally ask for accelerated stalls.

I believe the 40 is approved to accelerated stalls, I know the 42 is.

 

[Shepherd]

Back in 1963, when I first started flying, there were a lot of things taught that aren't taught now. Spins, dragging the field, loops, rolls, (aileron and rudder), Cuban eights, Immelmans to name a few. I only remember the spins (left and right) and dragging the field as being on the PPL test. I still have my "Basic Maneuvers" book from those days.

Glenn


Glenn