Primer stuck when cold (C172)

[Tom-D]

Nicely covered in the regulations quoted above -- lubrication with noncomplex assembly is preventive maintenance. Lubrication of the primer plunger does not require any complex work, so it's PM. Replacing the O-rings is another story, since that is not in the PM list, and will require your A&P's supervision and signature.

And you can get them from Aircraft Spruce if you mechanic doesn't have any around, but that's not the issue.

I've talked to FSDO Airworthiness people about more complicated operations, and they agreed those were PM, so I'm not worried about this part, but if you're not sure, do indeed call your FSDO to make sure.

If you mess it up and additional repair is required, then you should get a mechanic involved. But if you do what I first suggested and get your mechanic to teach you how to do it correctly the first time, it should not come to that.

How do you as an owner with out training as a mechanic feel you have the knowledge that lubrication is the only thing required?

How do determine the reason that this pump only works hard when cold?

If it is the old lube froze up how do you clean it?

how will you stop the inflow of fuel to the pump?

Lots more here than a knurled knob?

 

[Tom-D]

Thanks guys. I was lubed at annual a month ago, and working great, but also about 20 degrees warmer. Seems odd that it is now immovable already, but now I know what to do about it. Lack of lube does it to me all the time!

How does one remove the plunger to do this? Also, won't fuel come pouring out into the cockpit when I remove it? Should I shut the fuel off and run the engine until it stops to prevent that, or am I over thinking this?

How did I miss this post?

It was lubricated at annual? with what?

If you do remove the plunger, the fuel in the pump that got there when you pulled the plunger, will now be in your cockpit. So wrap a big rag around the plunger to catch it.

When I do the cleaning & repacking of the primer pump, I do this..

reach up behind the panel remove the suction line, 1 of 2 lines going to the pump. plus pull the plunger push the plunger at least once. then place a AN #2 plugs in it.

then remove the other and cap it too.

this allows you to remove the plunger with out a fuel spill hazard, now remove the plunger and the nut on the panel that holds the pump to the panel. Now you can remove the pump, clean it with alcohol or acetone, inspect the bore for deformities, remove and clean the 2 check valves that have more to do with difficult operation than any other reason. now clean the plunger and replace the 2 o rings. reassemble and check operation in a can of clean fuel see if it PUMPS prior to reinstallation in reverse order of removal.

That will cure your pump problem for the foreseeable future, smearing some sh-- on it won't.

 

[Pedals2Paddles]

...remove and clean the 2 check valves that have more to do with difficult operation than any other reason.

I'm looking at a picture and I don't see a removable check valve? Is it missing from this picture? Or is it integral? Clean it out with mineral spirits or other solvent?

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

He does not understand how simple the assembly/disassembly, removing fuel systems parts are not an owner do.

I'm sure you meant "log" and not "do".

 

[sixpacker]

I'm sure you meant "log" and not "do".

 

[Tom-D]

I'm looking at a picture and I don't see a removable check valve? Is it missing from this picture? Or is it integral? Clean it out with mineral spirits or other solvent?

Do you see the two slotted caps?
Under each you will find a tiny spring and a steel ball, if the steel ball gets contaminated by the goo Ron wants you to put on it, the ball will not operate liquid locking the piston.

 

[Pedals2Paddles]

OK thanks. I was thinking those two screws were the check valves. I suspect this thing probably has a combination of all ailments (lube, o-ring wear, and clogged valves). The primer sat for about 7 years without moving, frankly I'm surprised it was working at all before.

I was also happy to see it has a four cylinder primer instead the usual one. When the primer was working, it only took 1-2 shots. I was used to 3-4 or more before this aircraft.

 

[poadeleted20]

want their number? 1-425-227-2883 who answers that number will be my old PMI's relief

Bob Archibald there agrees with you that it is not preventive maintenance because the primer is an "accessory" and there is nothing in the reg specifically allowing any work on it. However, Tony Serio at the BAL FSDO disagrees, saying it is not a complex operation which in most cases cn be done without tools. So, I'd say ask your local FSDO and accept whatever they say unless you want to elevate the issue to HQ for a definitive nationwide ruling.

 

[Flymeariver]

So basically YMMV based upon who and which FSDO you talk to. If it was me, I wouldn't want to be screwing around with that stuff.

 

[Pedals2Paddles]

I like Baltimore's answer, and they're my FSDO

 

[Tom-D]

Bob Archibald there agrees with you that it is not preventive maintenance because the primer is an "accessory" and there is nothing in the reg specifically allowing any work on it. However, Tony Serio at the BAL FSDO disagrees, saying it is not a complex operation which in most cases cn be done without tools. So, I'd say ask your local FSDO and accept whatever they say unless you want to elevate the issue to HQ for a definitive nationwide ruling.

either an accessory, or a component, it is still a part in the fuel system.

You should learn to ask the correct question using the proper terminology.

You should have asked " can I disassemble any component of any fuel system", because that in a nut shell is what you did.
You would have gotten the correct answer not the FSDO quibbling answer you did.

 

[Tom-D]

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[poadeleted20]

either an accessory, or a component, it is still a part in the fuel system.

You should learn to ask the correct question using the proper terminology.

You should have asked " can I disassemble any component of any fuel system", because that in a nut shell is what you did.
You would have gotten the correct answer not the FSDO quibbling answer you did.

So if the answer I get doesn't match what you think, I asked the wrong question? And the FSDO Airworthiness Inspector who discussed the details of what's involved and why he gave his answer to this specific question based on that discussion and the precise language in the regulation is therefore wrong?

 

[bluerooster]

It's moot at this point as the OP has his primer out and on the table.

To peddals; I don't think mineral spirits will have much of an affect on the fuel lube.
Mabe alcohol, laquer thinner (contains acetone), or acetone.

 

[Pedals2Paddles]

I don't have it out. That's a picture from google images. But thank you for the solvent advice.

 

[nrpetersen]

I don't think mineral spirits will have much of an affect on the fuel lube.
Maybe alcohol, laquer thinner (contains acetone), or acetone.

Maybe alcohol will touch it but I doubt it. The other hydrocarbons won't touch fuel lube as that's what it is supposed to be resistant to. Gasoline (among other hydrocarbons) of course doesn't touch it. Be prepared to just wipe it clean as able. And you don't want any slug of this in your fuel system.

It really seems to me to be almost like clear Permatex

 

[Tom-D]

So if the answer I get doesn't match what you think, I asked the wrong question? And the FSDO Airworthiness Inspector who discussed the details of what's involved and why he gave his answer to this specific question based on that discussion and the precise language in the regulation is therefore wrong?

They will render the answer based upon your question.

Your famous for twisting the question to get the answer you want.. Mind showing us the precise wording of the question?

I'm waiting for Bob to call me back, we will see what you asked.

and in the morning I'll call your Tony. And ask, " Can maintenance on the aircraft fuel system other than fuel filters, be considered, an owner funtion ?"

 

[poadeleted20]

They will render the answer based upon your question.

Your famous for twisting the question to get the answer you want.. Mind showing us the precise wording of the question?

"Is lubricating the plunger on a panel-mounted primer considered preventive maintenance which a pilot is permitted to do without an A&P's supervision and signature?" Tony asked if any special tools were required. I said no. He then said it's PM a pilot can do. He went on to say a pilot should get an A&P to show him/her how to do it properly before doing it unsupervised (which is exactly what I had suggested in the first place in this thread) -- and he said that would be his strong recommendation for any PM task even though the regs don't explicitly require it.

That differs from Bob's answer which was that since the primer is an "accessory" and isn't specifically mentioned in the PM list, it isn't a PM item. I then asked about lubrication of some other items not specifically mentioned in the PM list, like the canopy rails on a Grumman, and he declined to answer.

I'm waiting for Bob to call me back, we will see what you asked.
and in the morning I'll call your Tony. And ask, " Can maintenance on the aircraft fuel system other than fuel filters, be considered, an owner funtion ?"

Since that's not the question at hand, the answer would not be relevant. How about just asking the specific question under discussion, i.e., the lubrication of a panel-mounted primer plunger, not maintenance of any/all parts of an aircraft fuel system.

 

[Tom-D]

Since that's not the question at hand, the answer would not be relevant.

That is exactly what you did, maintenance on a fuel system component. That component is not listed in FAR 43-A (c ) and is not any part described as a cowling panel or cover

Your Primer pump was installed by the manufacturer, under the production certificate, it is given a part number listed in the Illustrated Parts Catalog, and can be found in the fuel system.

Like I've said, twist the question receive an answer that does not apply to the problem.

 

[Tom-D]

That differs from Bob's answer which was that since the primer is an "accessory" and isn't specifically mentioned in the PM list, it isn't a PM item. I then asked about lubrication of some other items not specifically mentioned in the PM list, like the canopy rails on a Grumman, and he declined to answer..

Bob has been at FSDO for a very long time, he knows when people are asking leading questions, he knew the canopy rails probably do not require any disassembly, and would be covered by 43-A(c ) but he's famous for letting people babble then nailing their hides to the barn door.

He gave you the proper answer, because he knows that a primer pump can be added to the fuel system as an accessory, but once installed into the fuel system it becomes a component of that system. and there is no owner maintenance on fuel systems other than cleaning/changing fuel strainers and filters.

 

[Tom-D]

(6) Lubrication not requiring disassembly

Did the plunger get lubed with out removal? is removal a disassembly action? I think so, as will any other sane person.

other than removal of nonstructural items such as cover plates, cowlings, and fairings.

I guess Ron Believes that a primer pump plunger is a cover plate, or a cowling, or a fairing.
Which would it be Ron?

 

[Norman]

(6) Lubrication not requiring disassembly

Can you repack the wheel bearings without removing them from the wheels? That's owner allowed maintenance.

 

[Tom-D]

Can you repack the wheel bearings without removing them from the wheels? That's owner allowed maintenance.

Exactly,, that is an item on the 31 items an owner can do.

Disassembly of a primer is not on the list. it is not an owner function.

 

[bluerooster]

Maybe alcohol will touch it but I doubt it. The other hydrocarbons won't touch fuel lube as that's what it is supposed to be resistant to. Gasoline (among other hydrocarbons) of course doesn't touch it. Be prepared to just wipe it clean as able. And you don't want any slug of this in your fuel system.

It really seems to me to be almost like clear Permatex

It's definately sum nasty goo. And stiffer (way more viscous) than I thought it should be. But it worked well on the fuel valve in the C150.

 

[poadeleted20]

(6) Lubrication not requiring disassembly

How about quoting the entire regulation (as I did above), not just pulling out four words.

Same for asking the question -- if you ask whether an owner/pilot can perform "maintenance" without A&P supervision the answer is clearly "no", but that's because by definition:

Maintenance means inspection, overhaul, repair, preservation, and the replacement of parts, but excludes preventive maintenance.

. However, if you ask the question of whether this particular task is "preventive maintenance" or not, you will get the relevant answer.

 

[Tom-D]

How about quoting the entire regulation (as I did above), not just pulling out four words.

Same for asking the question -- if you ask whether an owner/pilot can perform "maintenance" without A&P supervision the answer is clearly "no", but that's because by definition:
. However, if you ask the question of whether this particular task is "preventive maintenance" or not, you will get the relevant answer.

That's easy..

(6) Lubrication not requiring disassembly other than removal of nonstructural items such as cover plates, cowlings, and fairings.

now tell me how a pump in a fuel system becomes a cover plate, cowling, or fairing.

Then show me any where in (c ) that says owners can work on fuel systems.

 

[poadeleted20]

That's easy..

(6) Lubrication not requiring disassembly other than removal of nonstructural items such as cover plates, cowlings, and fairings.

now tell me how a pump in a fuel system becomes a cover plate, cowling, or fairing.

Never said it was, although that regulation says "such as cover plates, cowlings, and fairings", not "only cover plates, cowlings, and fairings". That's a short way of saying "including but not limited to" or "for example". So, one would have to show the retaining nut on the primer was structural or otherwise not in a class with "cover plates, cowlings, and fairings" when it comes to assembly/disassembly, and neither Tony nor I think something you can just screw off and screw on falls under "complex assembly operations" as discussed in the definition of "preventive maintenance" 14 CFR 1.1, quoted above.

Then show me any where in (c ) that says owners can work on fuel systems.

Here are three examples:

(21) Replacing any hose connection except hydraulic connections.
(22) Replacing prefabricated fuel lines.
(23) Cleaning or replacing fuel and oil strainers or filter elements.

And beyond that, you show me the part that says item (6) doesn't apply to fuel system components.

Or better yet, just ask the actual question -- "Is lubricating the plunger on a panel-mounted primer considered preventive maintenance or not?" instead of trying to expand it to the entire fuel system, which clearly would encompass tasks which are not "preventive maintenance".

 

[Pedals2Paddles]

Nothing personal, thank you for all the help and advice. But I'm unsubscribing from my own thread now....

 

[bluerooster]

I never subscribe to any thread. Too many emails.

 

[SkyHog]

either an accessory, or a component, it is still a part in the fuel system.

You should learn to ask the correct question using the proper terminology.

You should have asked " can I disassemble any component of any fuel system", because that in a nut shell is what you did.
You would have gotten the correct answer not the FSDO quibbling answer you did.

By that logic, one can't change a tire, because it is "disassembling a portion of the landing gear."

 

[Tom-D]

By that logic, one can't change a tire, because it is "disassembling a portion of the landing gear."

Nick, simply read the rule, it specifically says you can..

(c) Preventive maintenance. Preventive maintenance is limited to the following work, provided it does not involve complex assembly operations:

(1) Removal, installation, and repair of landing gear tires.


Show me any statement like that for any fuel system component

 

[poadeleted20]

Nick, simply read the rule, it specifically says you can..

(c) Preventive maintenance. Preventive maintenance is limited to the following work, provided it does not involve complex assembly operations:

(1) Removal, installation, and repair of landing gear tires.


Show me any statement like that for any fuel system component

You should go back up about five posts and read the fuel system PM items I posted.

 

[Tom-D]

You should go back up about five posts and read the fuel system PM items I posted.

Was that prior to Bob telling you it was not an preventive maintenance action?

I actually did go back an re-read the thread, and found the reason you believe what you do.

In post 12 you make a statement that no restriction means you can do what ever you like as PM.

That is way wrong, FAR 43-A (c ) is what is allowed as PM if it isn't there, it isn't PM, other wise there would be no need of a list of what is including 31 items that are specifically allowed. the first sentence is proof of that.


(c) Preventive maintenance. Preventive maintenance is limited to the following work, provided it does not involve complex assembly operations:

(1) Removal, installation, and repair of landing gear tires.

 

[poadeleted20]

Was that prior to Bob telling you it was not an preventive maintenance action?

After, but it doesn't make any difference -- the PM reg specifically lists several fuel system components under PM, and that should satisfy your request to "Show [you] any statement like that for any fuel system component".

 

[Tom-D]

After, but it doesn't make any difference --

It makes a hell of a difference. That shows that you willing disregard the regulations/ASI's advice and look for a way around.

Not a single item in that list has a statement that includes the disassembly of a system component.

(c) Preventive maintenance. Preventive maintenance is limited to the following work, provided it does not involve complex assembly operations:

(1) Removal, installation, and repair of landing gear tires.

(2) Replacing elastic shock absorber cords on landing gear.

(3) Servicing landing gear shock struts by adding oil, air, or both.

(4) Servicing landing gear wheel bearings, such as cleaning and greasing.

(5) Replacing defective safety wiring or cotter keys.

(6) Lubrication not requiring disassembly other than removal of nonstructural items such as cover plates, cowlings, and fairings.

(7) Making simple fabric patches not requiring rib stitching or the removal of structural parts or control surfaces. In the case of balloons, the making of small fabric repairs to envelopes (as defined in, and in accordance with, the balloon manufacturers' instructions) not requiring load tape repair or replacement.

(8) Replenishing hydraulic fluid in the hydraulic reservoir.

(9) Refinishing decorative coating of fuselage, balloon baskets, wings tail group surfaces (excluding balanced control surfaces), fairings, cowlings, landing gear, cabin, or cockpit interior when removal or disassembly of any primary structure or operating system is not required.

(10) Applying preservative or protective material to components where no disassembly of any primary structure or operating system is involved and where such coating is not prohibited or is not contrary to good practices.

(11) Repairing upholstery and decorative furnishings of the cabin, cockpit, or balloon basket interior when the repairing does not require disassembly of any primary structure or operating system or interfere with an operating system or affect the primary structure of the aircraft.

(12) Making small simple repairs to fairings, nonstructural cover plates, cowlings, and small patches and reinforcements not changing the contour so as to interfere with proper air flow.

(13) Replacing side windows where that work does not interfere with the structure or any operating system such as controls, electrical equipment, etc.

(14) Replacing safety belts.

(15) Replacing seats or seat parts with replacement parts approved for the aircraft, not involving disassembly of any primary structure or operating system.

(16) Trouble shooting and repairing broken circuits in landing light wiring circuits.

(17) Replacing bulbs, reflectors, and lenses of position and landing lights.

(18) Replacing wheels and skis where no weight and balance computation is involved.

(19) Replacing any cowling not requiring removal of the propeller or disconnection of flight controls.

(20) Replacing or cleaning spark plugs and setting of spark plug gap clearance.

(21) Replacing any hose connection except hydraulic connections.

(22) Replacing prefabricated fuel lines.

(23) Cleaning or replacing fuel and oil strainers or filter elements.

(24) Replacing and servicing batteries.

(25) Cleaning of balloon burner pilot and main nozzles in accordance with the balloon manufacturer's instructions.

(26) Replacement or adjustment of nonstructural standard fasteners incidental to operations.

(27) The interchange of balloon baskets and burners on envelopes when the basket or burner is designated as interchangeable in the balloon type certificate data and the baskets and burners are specifically designed for quick removal and installation.

(28) The installations of anti-misfueling devices to reduce the diameter of fuel tank filler openings provided the specific device has been made a part of the aircraft type certificiate data by the aircraft manufacturer, the aircraft manufacturer has provided FAA-approved instructions for installation of the specific device, and installation does not involve the disassembly of the existing tank filler opening.

(29) Removing, checking, and replacing magnetic chip detectors.

(30) The inspection and maintenance tasks prescribed and specifically identified as preventive maintenance in a primary category aircraft type certificate or supplemental type certificate holder's approved special inspection and preventive maintenance program when accomplished on a primary category aircraft provided:

(i) They are performed by the holder of at least a private pilot certificate issued under part 61 who is the registered owner (including co-owners) of the affected aircraft and who holds a certificate of competency for the affected aircraft (1) issued by a school approved under §147.21(e) of this chapter; (2) issued by the holder of the production certificate for that primary category aircraft that has a special training program approved under §21.24 of this subchapter; or (3) issued by another entity that has a course approved by the Administrator; and

(ii) The inspections and maintenance tasks are performed in accordance with instructions contained by the special inspection and preventive maintenance program approved as part of the aircraft's type design or supplemental type design.

(31) Removing and replacing self-contained, front instrument panel-mounted navigation and communication devices that employ tray-mounted connectors that connect the unit when the unit is installed into the instrument panel, (excluding automatic flight control systems, transponders, and microwave frequency distance measuring equipment (DME)). The approved unit must be designed to be readily and repeatedly removed and replaced, and pertinent instructions must be provided. Prior to the unit's intended use, and operational check must be performed in accordance with the applicable sections of part 91 of this chapter.

OBTW, I'm done trying to teach you maintenance reg.

There is no student as stupid as the one unwilling to learn.

 

[poadeleted20]

It makes a hell of a difference. That shows that you willing disregard the regulations/ASI's advice and look for a way around.


(c) Preventive maintenance. Preventive maintenance is limited to the following work, provided it does not involve complex assembly operations:

Be back in aminute with the whole reg.

Nope. Just reading what's in the regs, and only what's in them. You're the one who keeps saying there's something in there saying item (6) (which does not exclude any system) doesn't apply to any part of the fuel system, but you haven't shown anything in writing to support that statement. I suppose that if you say that enough, someone may believe you even though the reg doesn't say that, but I won't be that person.

BTW, even Bob Archibald didn't say that. He said the reason it wasn't PM was not that it was part of the fuel system, but rather it was because it is an "accessory". However, he couldn't point to anything in the regulations to support the idea that PM could not be done on an "accessory". That's when I called Tony, who said it was PM, and provided a full and complete explanation to support his position.

 

[Tom-D]

Nope. Just reading what's in the regs, and only what's in them. .

I'll bet you and him did not read the FAA's opinion given in AC43-12A

quote

b. Preventive Maintenance. Section 1.1, defines preventive maintenance as “simple or minor preservation operations and the replacement of small standard parts not involving complex assembly operations.”
(1) Part 43, appendix A, paragraph (c) contains the Federal Aviation Administration’s (FAA) list of tasks that meet the requirements of the preventive maintenance definition. If a task or maintenance function does not appear in the list, it is not preventive maintenance. Also, because of differences in aircraft, a function may be preventive maintenance on one aircraft and not on another. To provide for this, paragraph (c) contains the limitation, “provided it does not involve complex assembly operations” on the aircraft involved. Owners and pilots must use good judgment when determining if a specific function should be classified as preventive maintenance.

read and weep, the FAA's wrote the AC as guidance you should follow their advice.

 

[poadeleted20]

I'll bet you and him did not read the FAA's opinion given in AC43-12A

quote

b. Preventive Maintenance. Section 1.1, defines preventive maintenance as “simple or minor preservation operations and the replacement of small standard parts not involving complex assembly operations.”
(1) Part 43, appendix A, paragraph (c) contains the Federal Aviation Administration’s (FAA) list of tasks that meet the requirements of the preventive maintenance definition. If a task or maintenance function does not appear in the list, it is not preventive maintenance. Also, because of differences in aircraft, a function may be preventive maintenance on one aircraft and not on another. To provide for this, paragraph (c) contains the limitation, “provided it does not involve complex assembly operations” on the aircraft involved. Owners and pilots must use good judgment when determining if a specific function should be classified as preventive maintenance.

read and weep, the FAA's wrote the AC as guidance you should follow their advice.

You would lose that bet. However, "lubrication" is item (6) on the list, and it's pretty clear to both me and Tony that lubricating the primer plunger "does not involve complex assembly operations" -- certainly no more complex than replacing an oil filter or changing the oil or changing a tire. So, I do believe Tony and I are following the letter, spirit, and intent of that regulation even if you and Bob do not. The difference is that you and Bob have been unable to find show any language in any of the applicable regulations which says primer plungers are not included in item (6), since it's not a complex operation and requires no special tools, and while Bob insists you cannot do PM on "accessories", he could not point to any blanket prohibition on PM on either "accessories" or the fuel system in any of the regulations or guidance.

So, I'm done responding to your insistence that you see something that isn't in the regs. When you get someone at HQ to say that lubricating that primer is a complex assembly operation and thus is prohibited, or you can show me an explicit prohibition on PM on "accessories" or fuel system items, let me know. Until then...

Good night.

 

[Tom-D]

You would lose that bet. However, "lubrication" is item (6) on the list, and it's pretty clear to both me and Tony that lubricating the primer plunger "does not involve complex assembly operations" -- certainly no more complex than replacing an oil filter or changing the oil or changing a tire. So, I do believe Tony and I are following the letter, spirit, and intent of that regulation even if you and Bob do not. The difference is that you and Bob have been unable to find show any language in any of the applicable regulations which says primer plungers are not included in item (6), since it's not a complex operation and requires no special tools, and while Bob insists you cannot do PM on "accessories", he could not point to any blanket prohibition on PM on either "accessories" or the fuel system in any of the regulations or guidance.

So, I'm done responding to your insistence that you see something that isn't in the regs. When you get someone at HQ to say that lubricating that primer is a complex assembly operation and thus is prohibited, or you can show me an explicit prohibition on PM on "accessories" or fuel system items, let me know. Until then...

Good night.

show me where complex assembly has any effect on this statement?

If a task or maintenance function does not appear in the list, it is not preventive maintenance.

 

[Tom-D]

So, I'm done responding to your insistence that you see something that isn't in the regs.

Good night.

I guess once again you missed this, right out of the lead statement of PM
(c) Preventive maintenance. Preventive maintenance is limited to the following work,
If it ain't on the list it ain't PM