Price of engine overhauls...

fiveoboy01

fiveoboy01

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Dirty B
Sorry if this has been discussed but I searched around and didn't find a lot...

Why are they so expensive?

We are dealing with 1950s technology. Air cooled. Carbs. Not a whole lot of parts, relatively speaking... Few or no sensors/other electrical components.

Why does it cost 20-30K to overhaul a 4/6 cylinder engine?

Parts scarcity? Parts prices? The FAA/Certification? Greed? Insane amount of labor to do it?
 
Good question.

What's worse, the engine is just one thing. You will probably add just as much in hoses, cables, ND testing mounts, accessories etc. It's deceptive how it can add up.
 
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Because most aircraft owners have a few $$

And they'll pay it.


FAA and our litigious society doesn't exactly help ether.
 
It's a combination of [lack of] Economies of scale, certification/legalese-related cost subrogation, and parts inflation-adjusted for new aircraft pricing points instead of used ones. It absolutely sucks.

The best one can do is IRAN to the max extent possible, go with field overhauls if push comes to shove, frequent use of the engine, and ultimately the willingness to operate post TBO on-condition. At least that's how I justify myself the expense of operating these rather simple machines on such ridiculous and unsubstantiated maintenance premiums.
 
The bitchin was just as bad when the price was 7500. to 10k.

It ain't the cost, it is what your dollar buys.
 
hindsight2020 said:
It's a combination of [lack of] Economies of scale, certification/legalese-related cost subrogation, and parts inflation-adjusted for new aircraft pricing points instead of used ones. It absolutely sucks.

The best one can do is IRAN to the max extent possible, go with field overhauls if push comes to shove, frequent use of the engine, and ultimately the willingness to operate post TBO on-condition. At least that's how I justify myself the expense of operating these rather simple machines on such ridiculous and unsubstantiated maintenance premiums.
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Roll in the fact that the FBO's overhead, insurance, labor costs, L&I, all have tripled in the past few years.
In the 4 years I had the hangar at BVS, the rent went from 250 to 500 per month, my customers paid that.
 
What about labor, inspection, overhead and tooling to perform the overhaul. Not to mention the above comments.
 
AKBill said:
What about labor, inspection, overhead and tooling to perform the overhaul. Not to mention the above comments.
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There is no requirement to own any of the tools or equipment to overhaul aircraft engines.

You can send out all the parts to shops that will do the machine work and buy new replacement parts.

5 years ago having a crank inspected and re-ground was about $1,000. last 0-300 crank I had done was nearer $2500.
 
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peerlesscowboy said:
Rebuilt Ford 360 cu pickup engine -- $4,000.
Overhaul on a Lycoming O-360 ---- $14,000.
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As someone who used to drag race heavily, I could put together a full on race 302 that made over 650 HP to the tire on nitrous. Long block costed me maybe 6K including machine work.

So yeah that's sort of what I'm getting at. But I guess as long as we are willing to pay it... Not that there is a choice lol
 
fiveoboy01 said:
As someone who used to drag race heavily, I could put together a full on race 302 that made over 650 HP to the tire on nitrous. Long block costed me maybe 6K including machine work.

So yeah that's sort of what I'm getting at. But I guess as long as we are willing to pay it... Not that there is a choice lol
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lol, I could make a junker 302 put 650 to the wheels with nitrous. Thats nothing special.....

Hell, I could even put some forged pistons in for a small price and make it last.
 
When has the price of anything stayed the same in 65 years?
 
SmashTime said:
lol, I could make a junker 302 put 650 to the wheels with nitrous. Thats nothing special.....

Hell, I could even put some forged pistons in for a small price and make it last.
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Sure, you can do that, but not with any longevity. It's not the pistons... You'll split the main webs in the block in short order. I know because I've done it. You needed a Dart or R block if you wanted sustained reliability(this was back in the early 2000s, not sure what's available now) at elevated horsepower levels and nitrous made excessive torque compared to a blower so the stress on the rotating assembly and block was even worse.

By the way, the 302 was equipped with forged pistons from '87 to '92 so unless you had a Fox body outside of those years, a switch to forged wasn't necessary.

In any case, I wasn't trying to claim it was anything special, it was just a cost comparison.
 
FloridaPilot said:
When has the price of anything stayed the same in 65 years?
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My first house cost $18K. My current plane cost as much as my first 4 houses combined. Think about that for a minute, then consider how much the politicians are stealing from us through inflation. :mad:

Jim Spencer
Old fart still flying
 
fiveoboy01 said:
Sure, you can do that, but not with any longevity. It's not the pistons... You'll split the main webs in the block in short order. I know because I've done it. You needed a Dart or R block if you wanted sustained reliability(this was back in the early 2000s, not sure what's available now) at elevated horsepower levels and nitrous made excessive torque compared to a blower so the stress on the rotating assembly and block was even worse.

By the way, the 302 was equipped with forged pistons from '87 to '92 so unless you had a Fox body outside of those years, a switch to forged wasn't necessary.

In any case, I wasn't trying to claim it was anything special, it was just a cost comparison.
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I was just pulling a fellow gearheads chain.

I'm an LS engine guy anyway. Currently equipped with a forged 390ci. Puts 468 to the wheels.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
Sure, you can do that, but not with any longevity. It's not the pistons... You'll split the main webs in the block in short order. I know because I've done it. You needed a Dart or R block if you wanted sustained reliability(this was back in the early 2000s, not sure what's available now) at elevated horsepower levels and nitrous made excessive torque compared to a blower so the stress on the rotating assembly and block was even worse.

By the way, the 302 was equipped with forged pistons from '87 to '92 so unless you had a Fox body outside of those years, a switch to forged wasn't necessary.

In any case, I wasn't trying to claim it was anything special, it was just a cost comparison.
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My stroker 302 /347 cu in all aluminum motor in my plane was around 9 grand complete.... And that includes the BEST in all components....
 
N801BH said:
My stroker 302 /347 cu in all aluminum motor in my plane was around 9 grand complete.... And that includes the BEST in all components....
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I spent about that just for parts to top the TSIO-360 on the 'kota. Since the parts were all certified and from NAPA they had to be the best possible!
 
N801BH said:
My stroker 302 /347 cu in all aluminum motor in my plane was around 9 grand complete.... And that includes the BEST in all components....
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Certified aircraft?

As far as 5=100, I don't buy the inflation argument. Sure it's part of it but I can't imagine it's the sole reason...
 
fiveoboy01 said:
Sorry if this has been discussed but I searched around and didn't find a lot...

Why are they so expensive?

We are dealing with 1950s technology. Air cooled. Carbs. Not a whole lot of parts, relatively speaking... Few or no sensors/other electrical components.

Why does it cost 20-30K to overhaul a 4/6 cylinder engine?

Parts scarcity? Parts prices? The FAA/Certification? Greed? Insane amount of labor to do it?
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Uh oh. Why do you ask?
 
fiveoboy01 said:
As far as 5=100, I don't buy the inflation argument. Sure it's part of it but I can't imagine it's the sole reason...
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If you're referring to my response then let me clarify. It had nothing to do with inflation. It had everything to do with all of aviation being outrageously overpriced.

If you weren't referring to my response then back your regularly scheduled programming.
 
Haha. No real reason Joe... shopping around and of course low engine time is desirable because I know what it costs... Not interested in buying something close to TBO and then spending another 20K for an overhaul...
 
timwinters said:
If you're referring to my response then let me clarify. It had nothing to do with inflation. It had everything to do with all of aviation being outrageously overpriced.

If you weren't referring to my response then back your regularly scheduled programming.
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I did think you were referring to inflation. I apologize for mis-interpreting what you were trying to say.

I'd say we're mostly in agreement then.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
Haha. No real reason Joe... shopping around and of course low engine time is desirable because I know what it costs... Not interested in buying something close to TBO and then spending another 20K for an overhaul...
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Ah. OK. Different plane. I was concerned that the mud on the aileron came with a nice little prop strike too.
 
gkainz said:
National Aviation Parts Association :)
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Actually.. Some of their product line is high quality...:yes:..

On my deathtrap I used Top of the line racing parts

Block is a Ford racing item.. 6010F-302...

Crank is a 4340 forged steel racing stroker crank

Heads are aluminum with titanium valves and stainless steel roller rockers.

Pistons are forged

Rods are Carillo I beam,

Rings are Plasma.

Fel Pro gaskets..

Cam is a roller billet custom Crane

And on and on.....

Motor is basically a 10,000 rpm set up and fun at 4400 on take off and 2900-3000 at cruise power...


To completely rebuild it, it would cost around 1,000 for all the rotating wear item parts.. About the cost of ONE Lyc 0-320 cylinder...:rolleyes2:..
I have had several certified planes.... NEVER again...

Unless I hit the lottery, then I will buy a brand new CJ-4 to scoot around the world in...

https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2854/12906480294_b674083c2b_b.jpg
 
That's a little misleading... The machine work on the block alone will be around 1K for cylinder boring, honing, line-honing, decking, and cam bushings... But yeah, new pistons, re-use rods, turn crank journals if necessary.... CHEAP compared to 4 cylinders of 100HP fury... Even if you factor in new Pistons/rings, bearings, galley plugs, seals etc plus crank journal machine work if necessary... You're still easily 1/4 the cost....
 
peerlesscowboy said:
Rebuilt Ford 360 cu pickup engine -- $4,000.
Overhaul on a Lycoming O-360 ---- $14,000.
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Let's see.

Ford 360
Remove carb, alternator, ignition and other accessories and place in box, only if the customer was stupid enough to leave it all attached.
Disassemble, clean, inspect parts.
Bore block.
Machine crank and rods if out of spec.
Overhaul heads replacing parts out of spec.
Replace cam, lifters and oil pump if necessary.
Install new pistons, rings, bearings and gasket set.
Maybe spin oil pump to check pressure.
Crate and ship.

O-360
Remove engine baffles, governor, deice and other airframe crap and place in box, only if the customer was stupid enough to leave it all attached.
Remove accessories, taking pictures and checking serial and part numbers against logbook.
Disassemble, clean, inspect parts.
Send out hardware for cad plating.
NDT of almost every part.
Overhaul carb, fuel pump and ignition.
Overhaul case.
Machine crank and rods if out of spec.
Check every part against parts list, service bulletins and AD's, replacing if necessary.
Replace cam and lifters.
Assemble case using new gaskets and bearings.
Install new cylinders, pistons and rings.
Install carb, fuel pump, primer system and ignition.
Install new hoses.
Connect engine to test stand.
Test run for three to five hours. (more if helicopter or customer wants it broken in)
Cut open oil filter, inspect and replace with new.
Remove carb, flush fuel system and pickle engine.
Update logbook with all work done and every part replaced or recertified.
Crate and ship.

I'm sure I missed a few things.

Now let's say a cam lobe went flat under warranty.

Ford 360 - remove intake, valve covers, rockers, water pump and radiator. Replace cam, lifers and reassemble. One day in any shop, a few hundred in parts.

O-360 - remove engine, ship back to shop, complete disassembly and cleaning, document all parts, new cam and lifters, new main bearings, gaskets, check parts against any new SB's or AD's, hone cylinders and replace rings depending on wear, reassemble, test run, update logbooks. Three days in shop, a few thousand in parts.

How about liability? Engine making metal and quits.

Ford 360 - Customer mad, demands refund for towing, engine and install costs.

O-360 - Customer mad (if alive), airplane damaged in farmer's field (if lucky), demands refund for engine and install costs, sues for cost of damage and injury (if lucky) to each passenger.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
That's a little misleading... The machine work on the block alone will be around 1K for cylinder boring, honing, line-honing, decking, and cam bushings... But yeah, new pistons, re-use rods, turn crank journals if necessary.... CHEAP compared to 4 cylinders of 100HP fury... Even if you factor in new Pistons/rings, bearings, galley plugs, seals etc plus crank journal machine work if necessary... You're still easily 1/4 the cost....
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Hmmm..

We will see....

I was a automotive machinist for 20+ years.... Ground cranks, resized rods, did complete cylinder head rebuilds, align -bored over 5000 blocks..

My motor / firewall forward set up should need a surface hone as cylinder wear over 2000+ hours will probably be less then .0015. No need to redeck the block, or line hone /align bore, throw on a new set of heads for 800 or so...

Let me restate my estimate might end up at 1,500 for a 400 HP+ motor...

Altho I don't really care.. I will die of old age before I need a rebuild...:yes::)....;)

And.. I don't run cam bushing... My motor is a roller /roller/ roller.....

Roller lifters, roller rockers, roller cam bearings.

Pics and specs and videos are at www.haaspowerair.com
 
N5922S said:
My first house cost $18K. My current plane cost as much as my first 4 houses combined. Think about that for a minute, then consider how much the politicians are stealing from us through inflation. :mad:

Jim Spencer
Old fart still flying
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Check how much your first house cost now!!
 
To watch an 0200 or an 85 say, be rebuilt, to see it opened up, it's very simple tech. And way overpriced. It should be illegal what is charged. It's 1930s design not 1950s and for any real good auto maven mechanic its a no brainier. Easy. Important to remember the first bonanzas sold for around ten grand. They are now half a mill. Absurd.
 
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