Preview of things to come.....

[Half Fast]

....increasing the ability to kill people without putting yourself in harms way.

That’s been going on since the introduction of leather armor, bows & arrows, and long swords. Today it’s low observables, night vision equipment, and long range cruise missiles. Same theme.

 

[Daleandee]

So ... is this the future of warfare?

Computerised Warfare

 

[Randomskylane]

Tell that to those that have been shot down, were pows or surviving family of the above.

Needless to say, I disagree with you.

Nothing will make war worse than increasing the ability to kill people without putting yourself in harms way. It’s a bad thing all the way around. At least with nukes the magnitude frightens us from the temptation to use them. Drones are immune to that fear, it seems.

Original Star Trek had an episode where the computers decided who “died” in each battle. If chosen, you would enter a chamber and be eliminated. The opposing countries thought this was more civilized than using actual weapons.

Spoiler-Spock and Kirk destroyed the computer so they would no longer have a neat and tidy war.

 

[Daleandee]

Original Star Trek had an episode where the computers decided who “died” in each battle. If chosen, you would enter a chamber and be eliminated. The opposing countries thought this was more civilized than using actual weapons.

Spoiler-Spock and Kirk destroyed the computer so they would no longer have a neat and tidy war.

Yep ... see post # 42

 

[Salty]

Standoff weapons have been around for many years. The ability to kill people without putting yourself in harms way is nothing new. It's part of our job to protect the warfighters, not to ensure they have to place themselves in harm's way due to some perceived moral obligation.

Nauga,
Magnum!

Drones make the cost is far cheaper and accessible by any country.

 

[Llewtrah381]

Drones make the cost is far cheaper and accessible by any country.

So did machine guns. And rifles before them. And bows and arrows before them. They all seemed “less gallant and gentlemanly” than the mode they beat. It’s the nature of warfare history.

 

[Salty]

So did machine guns. And rifles before them. And bows and arrows before them. They all seemed “less gallant and gentlemanly” than the mode they beat. It’s the nature of warfare history.

Ok, so it’s a good thing that it’s easier to kill people without putting yourself in harms way. Happy now?

 

[Llewtrah381]

Ok, so it’s a good thing that it’s easier to kill people without putting yourself in harms way. Happy now?

Yes, definitely. Do you think our enemies feel the way you do? Again, see Patton’s quote above.

 

[Bob Noel]

Here’s the criteria, from the Marine Corps reg:

“The most outstanding contribution to Marine Aviation in combat, research and development, weapons employment or overall performance in Marine Aviation.”

Says nothing about err..umm..hat size, bravado, looks-most-like-Tom-Cruise-in-Top-Gun or anything else.

And it’s more clearly defined than the PoA Undies-in-a-Bunch award.

Move on…

It's fine to recognize contributions in those areas. Really, not being snarky or dismissive.

Calling it an "aviator" award is what I think is ridiculous, asinine, ludicrous.

 

[Half Fast]

Spoiler-Spock and Kirk destroyed the computer so they would no longer have a neat and tidy war.

While they orbited safely in the Enterprise, protected by energy shields and able to kill people with phasers.

 

[midwestpa24]

I will play the Devil's Advocate here, although I am not commenting on the validity of the award in question.

I believe there will be a unique psychological reality for drone operators that we haven't faced before. Now yes, the operators are not in physical danger, and they aren't facing the enemy face to face or dealing with losing their battle buddy in combat. But they are placed in a unique environment that I hope the military realizes and has measures in place to help.

Imagine the typical day in the life of the drone operator. They get up, have breakfast with the wife and kids, then head off to work like any other person. While at work, they are assigned a mission to provide over-watch for our troops on the ground and perhaps witness in real time and high def a squad get ambushed and killed. Or they are flying an armed drone and conduct an airstrike taking out some leader of the enemy du jour. At the end of their shift they punch out and go home to the family, help the kids with their homework, while the news is showing footage of today's air strike or listing the names of the soldiers that were killed. They may face their own mental health struggles trying to live in both combat and home realities in the same day. Its akin to being an executioner on death row. Anyone that can do both with total disconnect would have to be a sociopath.

 

[2-Bit Speed]

I will play the Devil's Advocate here, although I am not commenting on the validity of the award in question.

I believe there will be a unique psychological reality for drone operators that we haven't faced before. Now yes, the operators are not in physical danger, and they aren't facing the enemy face to face or dealing with losing their battle buddy in combat. But they are placed in a unique environment that I hope the military realizes and has measures in place to help.

Imagine the typical day in the life of the drone operator. They get up, have breakfast with the wife and kids, then head off to work like any other person. While at work, they are assigned a mission to provide over-watch for our troops on the ground and perhaps witness in real time and high def a squad get ambushed and killed. Or they are flying an armed drone and conduct an airstrike taking out some leader of the enemy du jour. At the end of their shift they punch out and go home to the family, help the kids with their homework, while the news is showing footage of today's air strike or listing the names of the soldiers that were killed. They may face their own mental health struggles trying to live in both combat and home realities in the same day. Its akin to being an executioner on death row. Anyone that can do both with total disconnect would have to be a sociopath.

I won't dispute any of that. I simply think that a new class of awards should be created to honor their service as being unique (/distinct) from aviators, which have historically, physically been in real aircraft with all of the dangers associated with air travel in addition to whatever risks are associated with their unique theater of operation.

I don't think anyone here is arguing against the military honoring these soldiers, just the seeming dilution of the term Military Aviator.

 

[TCABM]

…they are placed in a unique environment that I hope the military realizes and has measures in place to help….

Can’t speak to the Marines, but the Air Force has been addressing that issue (and others specific to RPA ops impacts) with varying degrees of success since at least 2010. The article below, from 2015, provides some context.

Finding Meaning Inside the Box: Understanding RPA Crew Resilience | Small Wars Journal

Drone or RPA pilots are leaving the USAF faster than they can be replaced. Even more pay doesn't seem to slow the hemorrhaging down much.

smallwarsjournal.com

 

[Domenick]

At some point, maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, maybe not next year, but eventually we will have computers making independent decisions on going to war, strategy, tactics, and when to pull the trigger. At that point the human race is doomed. It is unfortunate, but it is inevitable.

 

[Scott@KTYR]

Aviator of the year who never leaves the ground.

Marine Aviator Of The Year A Drone Pilot

The Marine Corps' top pilot for 2024 never leaves the ground. For the first time, a drone pilot, Maj. Shane Gentry, has been named the Corps' Marine Aviator

www.avweb.com

Question: when he retires from the military will he be able to apply his hours of flying a drone to be qualified for a large commercial airline pilot?

 

[Salty]

Question: when he retires from the military will he be able to apply his hours of flying a drone to be qualified for a large commercial airline pilot?

Probably. By then commercial will also be drones.

 

[Sierra_Hotel]

I will play the Devil's Advocate here, although I am not commenting on the validity of the award in question.

I believe there will be a unique psychological reality for drone operators that we haven't faced before. Now yes, the operators are not in physical danger, and they aren't facing the enemy face to face or dealing with losing their battle buddy in combat. But they are placed in a unique environment that I hope the military realizes and has measures in place to help.

Imagine the typical day in the life of the drone operator. They get up, have breakfast with the wife and kids, then head off to work like any other person. While at work, they are assigned a mission to provide over-watch for our troops on the ground and perhaps witness in real time and high def a squad get ambushed and killed. Or they are flying an armed drone and conduct an airstrike taking out some leader of the enemy du jour. At the end of their shift they punch out and go home to the family, help the kids with their homework, while the news is showing footage of today's air strike or listing the names of the soldiers that were killed. They may face their own mental health struggles trying to live in both combat and home realities in the same day. Its akin to being an executioner on death row. Anyone that can do both with total disconnect would have to be a sociopath.

That's been an issue for years, they're already facing those issues. My brother, a USAF Reaper pilot currently on staff tour in EUCOM, said it this way, "killing someone and then going and picking up your kid from school causes issues for some people."

 

[Sierra_Hotel]

Question: when he retires from the military will he be able to apply his hours of flying a drone to be qualified for a large commercial airline pilot?

Not yet. MQ-9B may change that since it no longer needs chase aircraft.

 

[midwestpa24]

That's been an issue for years, they're already facing those issues. My brother, a USAF Reaper pilot currently on staff tour in EUCOM, said it this way, "killing someone and then going and picking up your kid from school causes issues for some people."

I'm glad to see that is recognized. I'm sure there are people smarter than I that are involved in it. As to your brother's quote, I would certainly hope there was at least some reflection by those involved. I'd be more concerned about the people that weren't bothered.

 

[3393RP]

Drones make the cost is far cheaper and accessible by any country.

The atomic bomb made death economical. The Manhattan Project was expensive, but the cost was quite a bit less than development and production of the B-29.

The cost of delivering the bomb was miniscule. Hiroshima's death toll was around 140,000 people, and it was accomplished with a single B-29 bomber. Compare that to the 279 B-29s required for the Tokyo incendiary attack on the night of March 9-10, 1945. That raid killed about 110,000.

 

[Pinecone]

The Feeling of Power - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Half Fast]

The atomic bomb made death economical. The Manhattan Project was expensive, but the cost was quite a bit less than development and production of the B-29.

The cost of delivering the bomb was miniscule. Hiroshima's death toll was around 140,000 people, and it was accomplished with a single B-29 bomber. Compare that to the 279 B-29s required for the Tokyo incendiary attack on the night of March 9-10, 1945. That raid killed about 110,000.

A favorite quote from Robert Traver (nom de plume of John Voelker) comes to mind. Having witnessed a mother duck fighting off a loon who was after her ducklings, Traver wrote:

The constant obscure savagery of nature seems always to lurk below the apparently placid surface of things. Probably even the lice on the loon's wings battle each other, while I know that the fish swimming below dwell in a subterranean welter of cannibalism. How can men hope for peace when combat and strife, not peace and calm, seem to be the basic norms of nature? In a real sense, then, peace is an unnatural state and all the elaborate plans of men to achieve it are, in this sense, in plain perversion of nature. Alas, peaceful men may be unnatural men, a fairly bleak prospect in the Atomic Age.​

 

[Llewtrah381]

Calling it an "aviator" award is what I think is ridiculous, asinine, ludicrous.

That seems a tad hyperbolic, especially in a world where F22s are fly-by-wire, have targeting systems to identify and prioritize targets, can synthetically look through their aircraft, and an autopilot possibly with autoland. And airliners are fly-by-wire and do have autoland. The difference is getting down to only the seat location.

Seems to me the Marines (and probably the other Services) recognize the distinction-without-a-difference we’re moving into and are incentivizing innovation and service in all aspects of military aviation. It’s not specifically a combat award - those also exist.

Also, it’s their definition of a Marine Aviator, their award, and their criteria - not PoA’s.

Should the Master Pilot Award only include years flying without a GPS? BRS? Glass panel?

 

[jsstevens]

That seems a tad hyperbolic, especially in a world where F22s are fly-by-wire, have targeting systems to identify and prioritize targets, can synthetically look through their aircraft, and an autopilot possibly with autoland. And airliners are fly-by-wire and do have autoland. The difference is getting down to only the seat location.

Seems to me the Marines (and probably the other Services) recognize the distinction-without-a-difference we’re moving into and are incentivizing innovation and service in all aspects of military aviation. It’s not specifically a combat award - those also exist.

Also, it’s their definition of a Marine Aviator, their award, and their criteria - not PoA’s.

Should the Master Pilot Award only include years flying without a GPS? BRS? Glass panel?

Seat location includes risk. The chicken is involved in breakfast, the pig is committed.

 

[Llewtrah381]

Seat location includes risk. The chicken is involved in breakfast, the pig is committed.

I get that totally. This award isn’t for risk-taking: there are medals for that. This seems to be more for overall impact on the aviation mission as a whole.

Should explosive ordnance people stop using robots and go in suited up just so they take more risk? Of course not.

Add: GPS, ADS-B, NEXRAD, BRS, and a host of other things also substantially reduce risk. Is some level of risk the thing that determines if someone is or isn’t an “aviator”? Then maybe the guys flying ultralights with 2-cycle engines are the only true aviators left.

The term “cavalry” has changed over the centuries, especially of late. I’m sure a hundred years ago there were British aristocracy in stuffy wood-paneled rooms lamenting the “misuse” of the term. Times change.

 

[Bob Noel]

SMH

 

[Half Fast]

Times change.

Yes, they do. But I still think of an "aviator" as someone piloting a plane from the cockpit. The term aviator, unlike "pilot," has a rather narrow meaning. (Someone steering a ship in a harbor is a pilot, but hardly an aviator.)

Now get off my lawn.

 

[jsstevens]

I get that totally. This award isn’t for risk-taking: there are medals for that. This seems to be more for overall impact on the aviation mission as a whole.

Should explosive ordnance people stop using robots and go in suited up just so they take more risk? Of course not.

Add: GPS, ADS-B, NEXRAD, BRS, and a host of other things also substantially reduce risk. Is some level of risk the thing that determines if someone is or isn’t an “aviator”? Then maybe the guys flying ultralights with 2-cycle engines are the only true aviators left.

The term “cavalry” has changed over the centuries, especially of late. I’m sure a hundred years ago there were British aristocracy in stuffy wood-paneled rooms lamenting the “misuse” of the term. Times change.

I made and make no comment on the award nor it's fitness, only pointing out that it's not simply a matter of seat placement relative to systems. It's also seat placement relative to risk.

 

[MBDiagMan]

There are Air Medals, Bronze Stars, Silver Stars, Medals of Honor, and other decorations for ALL of those who contribute at that level. To only have one recipient a year for this award wouldn’t do that group justice. This is for recognizing other, (add: exceptional and typically) non-combat contributions.

Maybe I’m not taking your meaning, but it sounds as if you believe in the “everyone gets a trophy” mantra.

 

[TCABM]

Maybe I’m not taking your meaning, but it sounds as if you believe in the “everyone gets a trophy” mantra.

The various services hand out a lot of ‘participation’ trophies. Quarterly and annual award winners for junior enlisted, NCO, Senior NCO, and Company Grade Officer. Annual career field ‘excellence in contribution’, Best Ranger Competition, Top Wheels, and all the various ribbons and medals.

Purpose? Motivate and recognize outstanding contributions among peer groups, etc.

Why? Because we can’t give spot bonuses or other tangible recognition, enable performance differentiation among peer groups, build esprit de corps.

Does it occasionally get corrupted? Sure, nothing’s perfect, but if you don’t give out some recognition every now and then, people won’t put up with all the hassle of.mil life.

 

[Llewtrah381]

Maybe I’m not taking your meaning, but it sounds as if you believe in the “everyone gets a trophy” mantra.

It was in reply to the statement “Tell that to those that have been shot down, were pows or surviving family of the above.” No, I categorically don’t believe in the participation award model. My point was there are ways to properly recognize wartime accomplishments for all who accomplish them when warranted and this award was for something different - in the context of that statement.

 

[Ashara Keliyn]

I agree that time of the dogfighting aces is gone. WWII was the pinnacle of that. All sides had great aces who deserve respect for their stick and rudder skills.

 

[Llewtrah381]

So, just curious: for those having trouble accepting this developing idea of a “Marine aviator”, which, if any, of the following meet your definition?

- F-14 back-seater (“Goose”). Remember, there are no flight controls back there.
- F-4 back-seater. There are flight controls but they’re not trained as pilots per se
- A Vietnam-era Flight Surgeon riding in the back of an F-4, on a combat mission, dropping bombs but also not trained as a pilot

There are more down the line, like Navigator, Bombardier, Loadmaster, Air-to-air Refueler, and more.

Not arguing - just curious, especially if you can describe the distinction in a way that properly excludes someone piloting a drone that’s fighting war for us. I don’t think “level of risk” is a reasonable part of the definition.

 

[Half Fast]

which, if any, of the following meet your definition?

Nope. Nope. Nope.

An aviator (or aviatrix) is a pilot in the cockpit. The others you listed might be airmen, air crew members, etc.

 

[TCABM]

Nope. Nope. Nope.

An aviator (or aviatrix) is a pilot in the cockpit. The others you listed might be airmen, air crew members, etc.

USAF has a dozen or so Career Enlisted Aviator specialities, none of which are pilots. There’s also three officer separate rated aviator career fields, only one of which is the 11XX Pilot AFSCs. Been that way for more than 25 years now.

Yes, the USAF definition of an aviator differs from Webster; it would not surprise me if it’s the same with the Marines.

 

[Sundancer]

I have an acquaintance in that arena - he scoffs at the saying "The last fighter pilot has already been born" - his take is the last drone pilot has already been born; the military drones will be autonomous support/wing man aircraft, no human necessary. He exaggerates, of course. . .I think.

 

[Albany Tom]

There's one risk that these guys face that might be new. It's one I wouldn't want to face. It's what if you make a mistake, and you kill your friends? Now in and of itself, that's not new. But in previous combat, those pilots were placing their own lives at risk. Similarly with artillery crews. I don't know if putting your own life at risk makes a friendly fire incident more bearable, but I'd suspect it does. That's a situation where going from an air conditioned office to back home after isn't going to make it better.

 

[Bob Noel]

A rose by any other name...

 

[Llewtrah381]

Nope. Nope. Nope.

An aviator (or aviatrix) is a pilot in the cockpit. The others you listed might be airmen, air crew members, etc.

OK - not aviators.

How about the AWACS pilot, who’s basically the chauffeur for the people doing the real war fighting and who stays at a safe distance typically over friendly territory? Maybe even the Poseidon pilot out dropping sonobuoys. Their risk is marginally higher than the drone pilot’s and about the same as an airline pilot (who I agree is an aviator but one without exceptional risk to their job).

Again, sincerely not trying to be argumentative - just encouraging us all to think through our assumptions. I admit calling a drone pilot a “military aviator” didn’t sit right with me at first (as a 24-year Air Force officer) but I at least understand the reasoning.

 

[guest user]

So, what I'm hearing is that this guy was just ahead of his time.

“My wife already knows how insecure I am about my job and how I’d much rather be introduced by my hobby. I’ve earned the title of pilot through my 500+ hours on and sim and thousands of dollars put into my craft. I think it is incredibly disrespectful for her not to acknowledge my skills and training. Just because I don’t have the title of pilot on an overpriced piece of paper doesn’t mean I’m not a pilot.”

Cringe: Flight Simulator Hobbyist Publicly Humiliates His Wife, Demands She Call Him a Pilot - Eye of the Flyer

A man very serious about his flight simulator hobby embarrassed his wife at a party after she didn't call him a pilot -- which he is not.

eyeoftheflyer.com