Preventing Go-Around Accidents

I think it's somewhat personal preference and what you feel comfortable with, however I respectfully disagree with your comment regarding full flaps on every landing. I think it depends on the type of aircraft and more so what kind of winds you are dealing with. (Particularly gusty crosswinds). I'd be curious to read some other opinions on the subject.
It depends on the airplane, but since you said you are flying a C150 which has 40 degrees if I remember correctly, I don't think full flaps are necessary or even desirable at all times. You'll find that people have many conflicting ideas about flaps. I once watched a heated argument about flaps between and owner and employee that ended up with the guy either walking out or being fired or both.
 
I compare flying the 150 to flying a leaf. It's a fun little airplane, but you really have to "fly" it! You are right about full flaps.

Your story is funny but typical in our world. You can talk to 100 pilots about any given subject and get 100 different opinions. I love it.
 
If you want some instruction with full flap landings let me know. For a while I was in the same camp and only used partial flaps for a year. I'm back to full flaps even when the crosswind gets to 40% of my touchdown speed. Im down the hangar row from John's 150.
 
It depends on the airplane, but since you said you are flying a C150 which has 40 degrees if I remember correctly, I don't think full flaps are necessary or even desirable at all times. You'll find that people have many conflicting ideas about flaps. I once watched a heated argument about flaps between and owner and employee that ended up with the guy either walking out or being fired or both.
I never used any flaps in the Cessna I learned in. :devil:
 
I'd been thinking the last few days about some of the accidents I read caused by poor go-around technique.

What advice do you real pilots have to avoid becoming a go-around statistic?

As far as I know, Oklahoma Senator Imhofe is the only pilot who thinks that there is a point in the landing procedure beyond which you fly at your peril. "Point of no return" is the way he put it. For the rest of us it is pitch up with the left hand, power up with the right hand...carb heat/mixture/prop are all taken care of by the pre-landing checklist. If flaps are extended, retract them a notch at a time or slowly after you have achieved a positive climb rate, whichever method fits the airplane.

The earlier you make the decision to wave off, the better. Floating down two-thirds of the runway five feet up before deciding to go around is not proper technique.

There have been many threads about visual clues, all of which are variations on the same theme: Pick a landing spot and maintain approach airspeed...if the landing spot moves toward you (down the windshield) you will land long. Go around and try again, even if you are 400 feet above the runway surface.

Bob Gardner
 
Hi Ed,

I have no problem landing the Piper with full flaps. Whether I do or not depends on the winds.

The 150 is an entirely different animal. That thing drops like a rock with 40 degree flaps and I use full flaps only when I know I have the runway made. The POH even states you should use minimal flaps in crosswinds and recommends no flaps on takeoffs in any condition even short field. For safety reasons in the case of go arounds when flying the 150 I only use 20 degrees max in most cases.
 
Yeah those 40 degrees really cause a ton of drag. That's what they are there for. :)
 
What makes you guys decide to use partial flaps or full flaps on a calm day?
 
What makes you guys decide to use partial flaps or full flaps on a calm day?

If you have a bejillion feet of runway, Flaps 20 in the 182 and "flying it down to the runway" will allow just about any idiot to make a beautiful "squeaker" landing.

You'll eat up 3000' of runway doing it, but your passengers will think "oooh" and "ahhh". :rofl:

It requires just about zero skill.

One of those tricks up the sleeve for nervous passengers.
 
What makes you guys decide to use partial flaps or full flaps on a calm day?
Depends on a few things.

-You might do it for practice.

-You might do it for the particular airport/traffic conditions - for example, I routinely fly GA into Phoenix (major class B airport). Being mixed with all the jet traffic, you need to maintain a high approach speed and consequently, your landing speed is a bit higher, (you really don't want to be slowing down much on final) - I landed a 210 there yesterday and used only 10 degrees.

-You may find the airplane makes better landings with partial flaps.
I found 20 degrees of flaps to be a real sweet spot for smooth landings in the Cardinal RG. You can land it with 30, but less flaps gives you better pitch control on touchdown. I also typically only use 20 in the Duchess unless it is a short field. In early Cessna 172s with 40 degree flaps, I only use the 40 for a really short field landing.

-Or, you could be flying a dinosaur jet like the DC-8 where full flaps maybe prohibited for nosie abatement issues. I've also seen a few airports with noise abatement procedures that recommend using the minimum flap setting possible for landing.
 
What makes you guys decide to use partial flaps or full flaps on a calm day?

Practice. On a calm day I'll put it down 2x each with full, 20', 10', & no flaps. This allows me to "feel" the plane in different configurations.


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-Or, you could be flying a dinosaur jet like the DC-8 where full flaps maybe prohibited for nosie abatement issues. I've also seen a few airports with noise abatement procedures that recommend using the minimum flap setting possible for landing.

Is this because of pure aerodynamic noise from the flaps or because the flap setting affects the propagation of engine noise?

In the Cessna 172 I only use full (40 degree) flaps on a short field or soft field. Most of my landings are with 20-30 degrees flaps depending on conditions.
 
I think it's somewhat personal preference and what you feel comfortable with, however I respectfully disagree with your comment regarding full flaps on every landing. I think it depends on the type of aircraft and more so what kind of winds you are dealing with. (Particularly gusty crosswinds). I'd be curious to read some other opinions on the subject.
I've given about 700 hours of primary flight instruction in C-150's, and I'll stick with full flaps. There is more than enough control authority down to full flap approach speed to handle any gusts or crosswinds you have any business flying in, and the extra drag makes the flare (where most folks lose it) much shorter and easier to control.

Furthermore, by doing it the same way every time, you put the Laws of Exercise and Recency (see the Aviation Instructor's Handbook if you're not familiar with them) on your side, which is very important for the average Private Pilot who flies only 50 hours a year or less. Of course, if you want to do 20 or 30 flaps every time, that's fine, too, but you'll be giving up some short/obstructed field capability, and if you try 40 flaps the one day in six months you land at such a field, you may find yourself a bit "out of shape" on the difference in performance and response (see Laws of Recency and Exercise, above), and a short/obstructed field is a bad place to find that.
 
I have no problem landing the Piper with full flaps. Whether I do or not depends on the winds.
That's a choice you can indeed make for yourself, but my experience giving refresher training to pilots who fly only for fun and not very often (say, less than 75 hours a year) is that when they do it differently every time, they never do it well.

The 150 is an entirely different animal. That thing drops like a rock with 40 degree flaps and I use full flaps only when I know I have the runway made.
Nobody's suggesting otherwise, but I still recommend full flaps every time once you reach that point.

The POH even states you should use minimal flaps in crosswinds
The Cessna POH's also recommend (for reasons probably known only to Cessna's attorneys) approach speeds than anyone who knows anything realizes are much higher than is a good idea.

and recommends no flaps on takeoffs in any condition even short field.
Takeoff is a different story.

For safety reasons in the case of go arounds when flying the 150 I only use 20 degrees max in most cases.
I'd like to know how you figure using only 20 degrees of flap on landing improves safety on go-arounds. I've never had any trouble teaching trainees how to safely retract a C-150's flaps from 40 to zero on go-arounds. It's just a matter of doing so incrementally, and adjusting pitch attitude appropriately.
 
Is this because of pure aerodynamic noise from the flaps or because the flap setting affects the propagation of engine noise?
It is because of the power setting required to maintain GS with full flaps extended.
 
By the way, the closest I came to an flight accident was when performing a go-around at Sandia East airpark (1N1). It was my first or second flight on Private ticket, and I decided to fly to local airports which I did not visit during training. Also, my crosswind technique was really bad back then, because, unfortunately, we never had good crosswinds. It really was maddening: wind would howl on every day _except_ the one I was scheduled to fly, and it was going on for months.

And so, the crosswind component was about 10G14 from the right, while the Cherokee has demonstrated crosswind 17 knots. What could go wrong, right? Well... Things were acceptable on final, but while flaring I found myself blown off centerline. The runway at Sandia East is rather narrow, so I would've ended with left main in a ditch. So I initiated a go-around from a bad position, and too late. And then, airplane would not accelerate. I knew that if I force-pulled out of ground effect, I would stall. Wind blew me completely off the runway, and I was on track to collide with airpark houses.

As it turned out, I was still holding rudder in pretty badly, which I held for runway alignment. And at local altitudes, 140 hp Cherokee does not climb unless coordinated. Once I released the rudder, I was able to accelerate and climb. Still, I'm pretty sure I buzzed a house. I just hope nobody was home... Nobody admonished me on the radio anyway.
 
I'm pretty sure I buzzed a house. I just hope nobody was home...

That'll teach them for buying a house adjacent to an active runway

There's a house on approach 36 @ W00. If you look down at just the right moment you can see it through the trees at about 200 AGL, right before you chop power. I always wonder, what were they thinking...

And now back to our regularly scheduled OFF TOPIC about flaps.
 
I've also seen a few airports with noise abatement procedures that recommend using the minimum flap setting possible for landing.

91.126(c) requires approximately that for all civil turbojet aircraft.

"Flap settings. Except when necessary for training or certification, the pilot in command of a civil turbojet-powered aircraft must use, as a final flap setting, the minimum certificated landing flap setting set forth in the approved performance information in the Airplane Flight Manual for the applicable conditions. However, each pilot in command has the final authority and responsibility for the safe operation of the pilot's airplane, and may use a different flap setting for that airplane if the pilot determines that it is necessary in the interest of safety."
 
The Cessna POH's also recommend (for reasons probably known only to Cessna's attorneys) approach speeds than anyone who knows anything realizes are much higher than is a good idea.

What approach speeds do you use for a 172, for example?
 
I was told there would be a go-around on my checkride (and there was).

I practiced go-arounds A LOT during my training.

In fact, pre-solo, I think my CFI wanted me to do several go-arounds just to see that when he let me fly by myself I would go around if it was needed.
 
Note that this regulation only applies to operations in Class G airspace.
Since the regs on operations in higher level airspace directly or indirectly require compliance with 91.126, it applies in them all.
Sec. 91.127

Operating on or in the vicinity of an airport in Class E airspace.

(a) Unless otherwise required by part 93 of this chapter or unless otherwise authorized or required by the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the Class E airspace area, each person operating an aircraft on or in the vicinity of an airport in a Class E airspace area must comply with the requirements of Sec. 91.126.
Sec. 91.129

Operations in Class D airspace.

(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required by the ATC facility having jurisdiction over the Class D airspace area, each person operating an aircraft in Class D airspace must comply with the applicable provisions of this section. In addition, each person must comply with Secs. 91.126 and 91.127.
Sec. 91.130

Operations in Class C airspace.

(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized by ATC, each aircraft operation in Class C airspace must be conducted in compliance with this section and Sec. 91.129.
Sec. 91.131

Operations in Class B airspace.

(a) Operating rules. No person may operate an aircraft within a Class B airspace area except in compliance with Sec. 91.129 and the following rules:
 
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Zero-flap landings were taught in a number airplanes back in the day. Oscar Duncan was "the man" among flight instructors in western OK in the 50's and 60's. He said that "those flaps are there in case you find yourself high on final and you don't have enough room to slip." The FAA's published position on flap usage came along later.

Cessna 120?

...which, for the unfamiliar, has no flaps.
 
...
8) Others?
How about not knowing where the other end of the runway is?

A couple months ago I landed at an unfamiliar airport with a 2500' runway. No big deal, plenty of room to stop an Archer. The problem was that I didn't get it down right at the beginning of the runway like I had planned and about the time I finished the roundout I realized that I couldn't see the other end of the runway because the runway was built on a small hill. I also wasn't really sure what the slope on the other side was like. (Note to self: Get familiar with what various runway slopes are like and check unfamiliar airports as part of flight planning.)

I was pretty sure I had enough runway left but didn't want to take the chance so I went around. Turned out I had plenty of runway left and the slope was minimal but I still feel better about not taking an unnecessary chance. Besides, I enjoy flying and a go-around is just an excuse to do more of it.
 
This is a great community and I'm just learning my way around. So much interesting information and I am enjoying reading various opinions on many subjects.

I think it's somewhat personal preference and what you feel comfortable with, however I respectfully disagree with your comment regarding full flaps on every landing. I think it depends on the type of aircraft and more so what kind of winds you are dealing with. (Particularly gusty crosswinds). I'd be curious to read some other opinions on the subject.

Nope, not even in a crosswind. Using maximum flaps will always allow maximum control. Even in a situation where you have unstable gust crosswinds full flaps will give you the advantage because for any given airspeed you have to use more throttle for that altitude or glide path. This mean greater airflow across the tail and a better degree of control. You also have greater finesse in speed on final because because applications of power to control sink will be less sensitive to gaining airspeed, and reductions in power will have a more immediate effect.

Full Flaps every landing you can. That's what they are there for.

Less Flaps means more kinetic energy when you tag the ground, and the energy goes up by the square of the speed increase. That kinetic energy is what makes things go wrong. You want the least of it possible when you touch down.
 
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Nope, not even in a crosswind. Using maximum flaps will always allow maximum control. Even in a situation where you have unstable gust crosswinds full flaps will give you the advantage because for any given airspeed you have to use more throttle for that altitude or glide path. This mean greater airflow across the tail and a better degree of control. You also have greater finesse in speed on final because because applications of power to control sink will be less sensitive to gaining airspeed, and reductions in power will have a more immediate effect.

Full Flaps every landing you can. That's what they are there for.

Less Flaps means more kinetic energy when you tag the ground, and the energy goes up by the square of the speed increase. That kinetic energy is what makes things go wrong. You want the least of it possible when you touch down.

Did you know you have a $250,000 price tag on your plane?
 
Full Flaps every landing you can. That's what they are there for.

Less Flaps means more kinetic energy when you tag the ground, and the energy goes up by the square of the speed increase. That kinetic energy is what makes things go wrong. You want the least of it possible when you touch down.

Yep. My Commercial training was with the son of a WW2 & Korea Carrier pilot. He reinforced all flaps, every time and I became a believer.

Of course I have no flaps in the Chief.

I really love those older Cessnas with 40 degrees available. The best was the C172 H model (?) with 40 degrees and a Johnson bar.

:thumbsup:
 
One can prevent go-around only by commiting to the accident. So, we go around. :(
 
I think there a certain balance between rudder authority and groundspeed when selecting a flap setting.. besides you don't want full flaps when you have to go-around anyway, too much drag. ;)

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Could be awhile before you sell it. You might as well get your MEI and bring it out to nebraska so I can get my commercial multi and MEI.
 
I think there a certain balance between rudder authority and groundspeed when selecting a flap setting.. besides you don't want full flaps when you have to go-around anyway, too much drag. ;)

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First, there's no direct relationship I know between groundspeed and rudder authority. Second, I know of no plane where the difference in rudder authority between full and zero flap stall airspeed is significant to the aircraft's ability to be landed in a crosswind. Finally, for go-arounds, that's why you have a flap retraction mechanism. If you were really that concerned about systems failures, you'd never pull the gear up after takeoff.
 
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