Pressure on both rudders at same time

T

Tracey

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tracey
Hi Everyone...

I was on a flight yesterday that had moderate chop and my instructor suggested putting pressure on both rudders at the same time. He said that this was for comfort as well as to prevent excessive yawing. He said that his worry in moderate to severe chop is that the plane would get yawed sideways and lose airflow over the leading edges.

I was wondering what everyone's thoughts were about this. He has a few thousand hours, so he is not a "newbie" CFI.

And pardon any typos, I am on an ipad and it really is tough to type on.
 
I should probably mention that this was in mtns, too. Maybe that makes a difference?
 
You'd have to be yawed alot for it to "... lose airflow over the leading edges."

:confused:

Besides, there's stability built in (airplane yaws left, presents right side to relative wind, gets pushed back).

I ride the rudders all the time to automatically catch for adverse yaw caused by bumps or by me banking.

:)

I also learned to be very active on the rudders in a V-tail Bonanza as it will sass-shay all the way across Kansas if you let it...
 
I agree about putting pressure on both in choppy air, it keeps the rudder from just trailing along with the yawing caused by the disturbance. By keeping the rudder portion stiff, it will act more like the vertical stabilizer (unmovable) portion of the assembly and will dampen out the induced yawing motion a bit better than just letting it trail along in the slipstream. In addition, you will be able to put quick slight pressure to make corrections, even to the point that you don't realize you are doing it. More like tensioning one side more than the other when the chop is trying to yaw you away from straight coordinated flight, thus providing the stabilizer portion effect as stated above.

But what do I know, I only have a bit over 100 hrs. logged.
 
I do the same thing, not a bunch but a few pounds of pressure, it's more comfortable all around and I keep the plane a little more stable flexing my calves to keep them from cramping. After a while you don't even know you're doing it.
 
(In fairness, I might not have correctly understood what he was saying and I could be relaying it wrong).

Dan thanks for your feedback.
 
This is neat, I've never heard of this, and I'll be around mountains if I go on my possible SIX HOUR cross country next week (round trip). I will try that.

In fact, with all that time, I'm going to try a bunch of stuff in flight I've been meaning to "test".
 
Henning said:
I do the same thing, not a bunch but a few pounds of pressure, it's more comfortable all around and I keep the plane a little more stable flexing my calves to keep them from cramping. After a while you don't even know you're doing it.
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That's what he said, that it can really help with comfort (if you have a passenger that tends to go green, and not from envy!).
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
This is neat, I've never heard of this, and I'll be around mountains if I go on my possible SIX HOUR cross country next week (round trip). I will try that.
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Have you done your tailwheel training yet?

Maintaining pressure on both rudders will help you in the taildragger.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
This is neat, I've never heard of this, and I'll be around mountains if I go on my possible SIX HOUR cross country next week (round trip). I will try that.

In fact, with all that time, I'm going to try a bunch of stuff in flight I've been meaning to "test".
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It seemed (to me at least) to make it feel like it was bouncing around a lot less.:dunno:
 
Tracey said:
It seemed (to me at least) to make it feel like it was bouncing around a lot less.:dunno:
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Perfect, I'll try it then, will make my passenger happy (and me). I'm less "scared" now than I used to be, but, as a pilot, I think all of us dislike turbulence. Funny thing is - last weekend - he seemed to think it was "fun" when we had a big drop (different than chop).
 
david.h said:
I agree about putting pressure on both in choppy air, it keeps the rudder from just trailing along with the yawing caused by the disturbance. By keeping the rudder portion stiff, it will act more like the vertical stabilizer (unmovable) portion of the assembly and will dampen out the induced yawing motion a bit better than just letting it trail along in the slipstream. In addition, you will be able to put quick slight pressure to make corrections, even to the point that you don't realize you are doing it. More like tensioning one side more than the other when the chop is trying to yaw you away from straight coordinated flight, thus providing the stabilizer portion effect as stated above.
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That's pretty much what he said!
 
TMetzinger said:
Tracey you're flying out west this week aren't you? With REAL mountains?

Sent from my ADR6300 using Tapatalk
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Yes, I am, but you do have to respect that New England optimism anyway!
 
Ive tried it but who can do it for hours? If you are in and out of spells of bad chop, it can help. But applying considerable pressure for a long period of time, not likely.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Have you done your tailwheel training yet?

Maintaining pressure on both rudders will help you in the taildragger.
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I did pay for a flight but I was discouraged (great CFI though) and I decided I'm stretching myself too thin. It felt like I was a student all over again, and I didn't do well (not in my mind), and everything was in a funny place, and I decided to stick with gettting more PIC time in the planes I already have, more cross countries. The Citabria cannot be flown for more than a lunch at best and honestly not even that. They use it a lot so I could never go away for the weekend, heck couldn't even fly to dinner, since that airport is not a night airport. I gave up. I'm happy with my planes and where I am as a pilot right now. Last weekend I felt a large leap in confidence and weather / planning so I am going to stay put.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
I did pay for a flight but I was discouraged (great CFI though) and I decided I'm stretching myself too thin. It felt like I was a student all over again, and I didn't do well (not in my mind), and everything was in a funny place, and I decided to stick with gettting more PIC time in the planes I already have, more cross countries. The Citabria cannot be flown for more than a lunch at best and honestly not even that. They use it a lot so I could never go away for the weekend, heck couldn't even fly to dinner, since that airport is not a night airport. I gave up. I'm happy with my planes and where I am as a pilot right now. Last weekend I felt a large leap in confidence and weather / planning so I am going to stay put.
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We have a Citabria at my school, I was thinking of going up and checking it out.

i'm glad about your huge leap in confidence, that must feel good!
 
Tracey said:
We have a Citabria at my school, I was thinking of going up and checking it out.

i'm glad about your huge leap in confidence, that must feel good!
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I don't know if "confidence" is the right word. I am just feeling "better" about weather now and with the tools I have (foreflight, internet) I can keep a constant watch on cloud conditions. Before now, if there was a single cloud in the sky, I'd stay grounded. Landing the 150 with "gusts" and no issues helped. Doing it at night helped. Also, seing "haze" and "tulle fog" and "8 miles viz" and some various cloud conditions, all perfectly legal, makes me realize I'm not gonna see Mt. Shasta (200 miles away) every freaking day, and that's OKAY.
 
I should probably mention that this was in mtns, too. Maybe that makes a difference?

Henning said:
You gotta love that New England optimism...:rofl:
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That from a pilot in Florida, where the highest mountain is a landfill!
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
I don't know if "confidence" is the right word. I am just feeling "better" about weather now and with the tools I have (foreflight, internet) I can keep a constant watch on cloud conditions. Before now, if there was a single cloud in the sky, I'd stay grounded. Landing the 150 with "gusts" and no issues helped. Doing it at night helped. Also, seing "haze" and "tulle fog" and "8 miles viz" and some various cloud conditions, all perfectly legal, makes me realize I'm not gonna see Mt. Shasta (200 miles away) every freaking day, and that's OKAY.
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Good to know that you can start feeling more comfortable with that stuff-- makes me hopeful!
 
You mean, deploy the speedbrakes? I do that sometimes, but a slip is usually more effective.
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I was wondering if any Rutan type flyers would pop in on this. It doesn't work so well with each rudder being independant and spring-return.

btw, as a newb here, how do you quote someone "correctly"?
 
upstateny said:
I should probably mention that this was in mtns, too. Maybe that makes a difference?



That from a pilot in Florida, where the highest mountain is a landfill!
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At least when we refer to it as "Mt." Trashmore, we say it tongue in cheek...:rofl:;)
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Ive tried it but who can do it for hours? If you are in and out of spells of bad chop, it can help. But applying considerable pressure for a long period of time, not likely.
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I do, once you get used to your feet living on the rudders it's not that big of a deal to work the pedals all day. Flying pipeline in the PA-12 there was a run west of Abilene if you didn't the plane would knock you out it would get that rough. If the wind was out of the South my helmet was going on as I approached Dyess AFB.
 
Henning said:
Ahhh! Too cool, on vacation, yay. there's some good mountain flying to be done there, beautiful views as well. Enjoy!
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Yes, thanks Henning. The flying truly is spectacular, but dangers lie in them there mountains! (Or above them, really). it's nice to fly with a pilot that is really experienced in mountain flying!
 
Tracey said:
Yes, thanks Henning. The flying truly is spectacular, but dangers lie in them there mountains! (Or above them, really). it's nice to fly with a pilot that is really experienced in mountain flying!
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Good thing to notice...
 
Tracey said:
Where's that <whack Henning> smilie when you need it? :)
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That was actually a serious observation. Many people think "safe" means having altitude when often the safety is in the valleys.
 
Henning said:
That was actually a serious observation. Many people think "safe" means having altitude when often the safety is in the valleys.
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Oh, whoops! Sorry!

I'm sure I will have another opportunity for that smilie though. :yesnod:
 
I remember the first time my CFI put me in a spin, in a glider. That big canopy, and my laid back seating position, meant I was looking at the ground nearly between my feet. I remember pushing on both rudder pedals, hard, in an involuntary attempt to hit the brakes!
 
Matthew said:
I remember pushing on both rudder pedals, hard, in an involuntary attempt to hit the brakes!
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I can see doing this... It's hard to get the "car mentality" out of you when you fly! (Or out of me, anyway).
 
It's a good technique if you're in bumps that are causing some yaw you don't like, but can tire you out if you do it all the time. Normally just the resting pressure of your feet is enough in smooth or mildly turbulent air to keep the plane from wagging.

Of course, it depends on the relative size of the vertical stabilizer to the rudder surface. Some airplanes have more of a tendency to wiggle than others.
 
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