President Obama's free 2 Year Community College law.

FloridaPilot

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http://www.politico.com/story/2015/01/barack-obama-free-community-college-114094.html

I'm NOT posting this because I want a political stirrup here at POA so please don't post that here. (No posts based on your political agenda)

I would like to talk about how that would benefit learning how to fly for people that want to get into aviation. It's for everyone so if you wanted to change careers you can do just that at any age.

What do you guys think?
 
Forgive me for being picky, but you as an American should understand how your government works. The Executive branch, of which the President is the head, does not write laws (or at least, they aren't supposed to). That is up to the legislative, your congress.

My guess is that this won't help aspiring aviators even one iota. College tuition, especially at community schools, is far less expensive that flight training. If you can't afford the former you certainly haven't the financial chops for the latter.
 
Deleted. Wrong forum.
 
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Not going to be easy ,to keep politics out of the thread. There is another thread going ,in the spin zone.
 
Forgive me for being picky, but you as an American should understand how your government works. The Executive branch, of which the President is the head, does not write laws (or at least, they aren't supposed to). That is up to the legislative, your congress.

My guess is that this won't help aspiring aviators even one iota. College tuition, especially at community schools, is far less expensive that flight training. If you can't afford the former you certainly haven't the financial chops for the latter.

Well noted, it was more of a typing mishap then anything.

I believe the 4 year schools are going to fight it tooth and nail because that is affecting the bottom line.

If someone wanted to learn "Airplane Maintenance" for their own plane they would just simply go to a community college and learn it for 2 years. Instead of dropping 60k in student loans, (Yeah it's that much I checked) NAA just had a career fair and I attended to see if I could learn it for my own plane in the future.
 
You obviously missed "Emperor" Obama's 29th Amendment to the Constitution, proposed, ratified, and first used by his O'ness in late 2014 to open the borders to anyone who dares to walk across.

I should've known it would be somebody!

Internet tough guys...shheeeesh!
 
Well noted, it was more of a typing mishap then anything.

I believe the 4 year schools are going to fight it tooth and nail because that is affecting the bottom line.

If someone wanted to learn "Airplane Maintenance" for their own plane they would just simply go to a community college and learn it for 2 years. Instead of dropping 60k in student loans, (Yeah it's that much I checked) NAA just had a career fair and I attended to see if I could learn it for my own plane in the future.

That won't be covered in "the plan". It's for students pursuing a degree at a 4 year institution for a degree program there.

You should get a refund on that $60K. Community College tuition is about $1000 per semester here.
 
TCC (Tulsa Community College) has already been doing this for many years now. Now, they do not have an aviation program, but the Tulsa VoTech school does. If this law was passed into effect, it could allow a lot of people to train at a vocational school, which could spur some new applicants into the field who looked at a course list and saw that they could get into a flying career for next to nothing.
 
This "proposal" is nothing but political grandstanding. There is nothing in this proposal BUT politics, whether it's lobbying by the higher education business or a lame-duck President trying to establish a respectable legacy. Regardless, it is highly unlikely that this proposal will even be considered for funding by the current legislature.


JKG
 
I would rather see our govt. pay for college than to give it away to people who just want to sit on their @$$ all day.
 
Offer free stuff... Taken from the old worn out playbook.
 
I would rather see our govt. pay for college than to give it away to people who just want to sit on their @$$ all day.

A college degree does not automatically produce a productive member of society. The folks who sit on their @$$ all day will continue to do so whether they have access to or take advantage of "free" education. The reality is that many of those same people already have access to free or nearly free higher education. If anything, providing something "free" is a disincentive to productivity.

When you can't get people through a dumbed-down "free" K-12 education system, they aren't going to make it through a "free" higher education system, either.


JKG
 
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A college degree does not automatically produce a productive member of society. The folks who sit on their @$$ all day will continue to do so whether they have access to or take advantage of "free" education. The reality is that many of those same people already have access to free or nearly free higher education. If anything, providing something "free" is a disincentive to productivity.

When you can't get people through a dumbed-down "free" K-12 education system, they aren't going to make it through a "free" higher education system, either.


JKG


I don't agree with it, I am only saying I would rather see that if we had a choice. I would bet if you could swap the welfare for paid college, what you said would likely prove true and we would save a lot of money. We all know this isn't an either/or deal, so that in it self makes it bad for our country.
 
Politics aside...

Nothing is free.

Indeed

If he keeps this up I might have to look for a under the table job. So far I'm sick of working part time slave labor, I work 4 hours but I only get paid for 3 other hour the government takes...

This is not helping.
 
Forgive me for being picky, but you as an American should understand how your government works. The Executive branch, of which the President is the head, does not write laws (or at least, they aren't supposed to). That is up to the legislative, your congress.

My guess is that this won't help aspiring aviators even one iota. College tuition, especially at community schools, is far less expensive that flight training. If you can't afford the former you certainly haven't the financial chops for the latter.

Yes and no. The executive branch writes lots of administrative law. The Department of Education Standards imposed on schools aren't passed by Congress, nor is the FAR.
 
Community college is sooooo cheap already. Since when has money been a barrier to attending a community college?
 
Community college is sooooo cheap already. Since when has money been a barrier to attending a community college?

Even when it costs money so presumably students have some motiviation to finish, you still have hundreds/thousands of kids who drop out every quarter. That was always a major memory of mine, the beginning of each period the parking lots are jammed with people and by the end, they are half empty or more.

Making it free will just cause this effect to be even stronger and will make it hard to get classes because registration will be even more impacted by losers who attend for the first month, then drop out.
 
Frankly if we got rid of the corrupt system of financial aid currently in place we could pay non-profit universities directly and send anybody who wanted to to college for free as it is.
There are lots of people making full advantage of the federal financial aid supports and the non-profit schools and the students are down at the bottom of the food chain there.
 
Frankly if we got rid of the corrupt system of financial aid currently in place we could pay non-profit universities directly and send anybody who wanted to to college for free as it is.
There are lots of people making full advantage of the federal financial aid supports and the non-profit schools and the students are down at the bottom of the food chain there.

:yeahthat:

Financial Aid at some point took the way of the payday loan.
 
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I would like to talk about how that would benefit learning how to fly for people that want to get into aviation. It's for everyone so if you wanted to change careers you can do just that at any age.

I really don't think it will have any impact at all. Not to get political, but I do think it adds to the misconception that government programs are "free", when in reality they cost a lot more than a private sector solution due to the ineffecient bureacracy being involved.

It is really, really bad idea.
 
Frankly if we got rid of the corrupt system of financial aid currently in place we could pay non-profit universities directly and send anybody who wanted to to college for free as it is.
There are lots of people making full advantage of the federal financial aid supports and the non-profit schools and the students are down at the bottom of the food chain there.

:yeah that:

Financial Aid at some point took the way of the payday loan.

I really don't think it will have any impact at all. Not to get political, but I do think it adds to the misconception that government programs are "free", when in reality they cost a lot more than a private sector solution due to the ineffecient bureacracy being involved.

It is really, really bad idea.

All those things.

It may well be a good idea to offer free community college tuition to students - in most places where community colleges exist, it is almost free already (as in, supported b the taxpayers in the community in which the college is located).

Key word: "Community."

It is absolutely, positively not the province of the federal government to meddle in this - and in so doing, they will absolutely, positively screw up the pretty darned good systems of community colleges we have.

This would be the case, fundamentally, regardless of whose idea it is.
 
This "proposal" is nothing but political grandstanding. There is nothing in this proposal BUT politics, whether it's lobbying by the higher education business or a lame-duck President trying to establish a respectable legacy. Regardless, it is highly unlikely that this proposal will even be considered for funding by the current legislature.


JKG
Exactly. Most CC's are dirt cheap compared to the traditional universities. Trying to make it sound like he is doing a lot when he is doing very little. I don't think the traditional universities have anything to fear.
 
All those things.

It may well be a good idea to offer free community college tuition to students - in most places where community colleges exist, it is almost free already (as in, supported b the taxpayers in the community in which the college is located).

Key word: "Community."

It is absolutely, positively not the province of the federal government to meddle in this - and in so doing, they will absolutely, positively screw up the pretty darned good systems of community colleges we have.

This would be the case, fundamentally, regardless of whose idea it is.

I'm trying very hard not to propel this into the Spin Zone but this initiative and it's intent is all in the name of the fine art of "vote buying."
 
I'm trying very hard not to propel this into the Spin Zone but this initiative and it's intent is all in the name of the fine art of "vote buying."

Yep, Obama phones, "free" healthcare, now "free" CC, yet it's not even for a vocation, just to blow more money on a 4 year BS in BS...

When will people understand there is no such thing as "free" the money comes from somewhere, chances are if you're on this forum, that "free" comes from your pay and the sweat off your back.
 
I don't agree with it, I am only saying I would rather see that if we had a choice. I would bet if you could swap the welfare for paid college, what you said would likely prove true and we would save a lot of money. We all know this isn't an either/or deal, so that in it self makes it bad for our country.

No doubt there are better ways to spend money than the current welfare state, but my point is threefold:

1 -- The current welfare state can't go away, because most of the folks using it aren't interested in becoming productive members of society;
2 -- "Free" removes the cost/benefit analysis that many people would otherwise consider before obtaining a college degree. As a result, I suspect that there would be a sharp increase in demand for the "free" education, but substantially less to show for it as a result. A variation of this problem is one of the criticisms leveled against higher education institutions which accept a large amount of financial aid, but which also produce a large number of graduates into fields with little opportunity for gainful employment and/or perpetually low-paying jobs;
3 -- Increased demand for the "free" education would necessarily result in an increase in the cost of providing that education, regardless of how it was funded.

A notable part of the problem with the cost of higher education is the social and political pressure for everyone to get a degree. In concert with that pressure, colleges are "enhancing" degree programs with the carrot of an advanced degree, but with added time and cost. One example is the migration of pharmacy school programs from 4 years, to 5 years, and now to 6 years; instead of a B.S., the graduate receives a PharmD, which most pharmacists will never use and don't need, but are required to pay for in order to graduate and enter the profession.

I suspect that the financial aid racket is largely a symptom rather than a cause. If the pressure to buy the product didn't exist, there would be less demand to fund it.


JKG
 
A college degree does not automatically produce a productive member of society.

Amen. I think folks sometimes have a hard time differentiating between causality and correlation.

(P.S. I'm off to join COPA because that will reduce my chance of being in an accident. :D)
 
The current welfare state can't go away, because most of the folks using it aren't interested in becoming productive members of society;

Do you suppose they could be motivated? Perhaps if we developed their addictions to food, clothing and shelter a little more acutely, they would become more self-interested in being productive?
 
When these fine folks flood the halls for education do we think there might be a wee touch of grade inflation and social promotion to go along with the free tuition. Be embarrassing(and contrary to a certain world view) if a large number of free CC students flunked out. And everything gets dumber.
 
That won't be covered in "the plan". It's for students pursuing a degree at a 4 year institution for a degree program there.

You should get a refund on that $60K. Community College tuition is about $1000 per semester here.

I didn't attend the school but I was quoted 60k!
 
JWhen you can't get people through a dumbed-down "free" K-12 education system said:
Obviously you didn't do too well in critical thinking if you ever took it in college. Ain't no "dumbed down" college courses that I know of; anybody that makes it through one of my classes with a B or better knows their stuff absolutely cold. THe only difference between a B and an A is a better notebook or a prettier paint job on their project.

Don't post this bushwa if you don't know what you are talking about.

Jim
 
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Obviously you didn't do too well in critical thinking if you ever took it in college. Ain't no "dumbed down" college courses that I know of; anybody that makes it through one of my classes with a B or better knows their stuff absolutely cold. THe only difference between a B and an A is a better notebook or a prettier paint job on their project.

Don't post this bushwa if you don't know what you are thaking about.

Jim

The "dumbed down" reference was to k-12, not college; but, more importantly, I think the message was that, with a substantial increase in the number of questionably-motivated students going to community college, and increased pressure to harvest outside dollars by the college, there would be great pressure to avoid flunking out "students" who might start looking a lot more like "vouchers."
 
College grade inflation is a myth? Say it ain't so Professor Mansfield.:lol:
Obviously you didn't do too well in critical thinking if you ever took it in college. Ain't no "dumbed down" college courses that I know of; anybody that makes it through one of my classes with a B or better knows their stuff absolutely cold. THe only difference between a B and an A is a better notebook or a prettier paint job on their project.

Don't post this bushwa if you don't know what you are thaking about.

Jim
 
Maybe I'm misunderstanding something but I went to community college for two years to get the basics out of the way. FASFA paid for it all except one class. I even had a little left over. The aviation degree out of state is what kicked my butt in loans. Now, my assumption is that the free college idea is geared towards low to middle income families which FASFA is income based so many people in this spectrum are already getting free or reduced in state tuition. So really the ones that would get it are not in this income level which I won't state whether that's good or bad.

As far as aviation goes, that's a tough one. It is possible that they may offer A&P degrees. I have a feeling they might end up like my university, as far as the flying stuff goes, and outsource it to the FBO where it's paid separately. I could see many things like aviation and the medical fields going that direction to reduce costs. I see a cheap way of getting a basic but no job promise degree for the middle and upper class for free. We need jobs that pay better. I know people that didn't go to college and have great jobs but I also know plenty that dont. I also know people who went through an expensive college and could not find work afterwards. It's all about life choices and your own situation. We are all already paying for FASFA whether we like it or not since its a government program. If you decide to go to college, try that first before complaining there is no help out there.

All in all, it would be great for students in low cost studies. I have a feeling they'd find a way to weasel out of things like flight training. If they end up making universities free, all our paychecks are in trouble and I and many others will be wanting payback...at least in outrageous interest fees.
 
If there are any moderators here I wouldn't mind if this post gets deleted.

It wasn't my intention at all to start a whole political debate on this forum but I did and therefore I'm sorry. I should've known from previous message boards in the past that people bring up political agendas without the subject having ANYTHING to do with politics. I should've known that anything remotely close to politics would bring out the worst and the ignorance out in people.

I will not bring up anything close to politics on these message boards...ever! Flying is more fun to discuss.


Thank you

Florida Pilot
 
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