PreFlight at a XC stop?

MDeitch1976

MDeitch1976

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Is it recommended to have an abbreviated Preflight when making a stop for fuel, food, stretching your legs, etc?

Months ago, I had gone on a dual XC with one of my instructors to a class D airspace. We stopped in the FBO, he showed me around, and the FBO allowed us to go into the hangar and check out a couple of the planes sitting back there. We were there for about 30 minutes.

When we departed, we did not do walk around the plane. We checked the fuel, flight surface check,started up, taxied to the RWY hold, did our run up, and then departed. I was under the impression that a preflight is a preflight(before any flight). Am I wrong here?
 
It falls under personal preference. Believe or not there are pilots that first flight of the day do not do full pre flights, there are pilots that after a stop don't even check the fuel or look over the aircraft. When you get your license, you will end up doing what you feel comfortable. But because people cut corners, doesn't always mean it is the safest.
 
I do a very thorough preflight at the beginning of the day, and then I usually take a quick look over the airplane, including checking the important trouble spots (stabilator wiggleroom and muffler springs on the plane I fly, for example). I naturally check the fuel as well. You didn't mention the oil, but I think that's important to check, and I do.

Though I do believe it's personal preference. When I stop, I'm usually grabbing food at the airport restaurant, and I can see the plane the whole time. If I were to go somewhere where I didn't see the airplane for an extended period of time, I would definitely be more thorough.
 
I'm a helicopter crew chief, and we do what is called a through-flight between flights on the same day.

Preflight before first flight of the day
Through-flight between flights on the same day
Postflight after last flight of the day

Of course, these are all spelled out in the flight manual, while most GA manuals just have a preflight.

Personally, I'd double check fuel, check the oil, and check for obvious damage, such as something having run into the plane while parked.
 
I like the idea of doing it the same way every time. If its going flying, it's getting pre-flighted. I might bend this slightly for a stop where the aircraft literally never left my sight, but I'm still walking around it and looking at attach points, for damage, etc. Generally it will end up just being a full pre-flight.
 
On short stops (fuel/food/etc) I'll do a walkaround and lay eyeballs on all surfaces looking for anything obviously "not right", sump the tanks if I've fueled, check the oil and tires for inflation, run a hand over the prop blade for nicks, mag check and let's go. First flight of the day or first flight BY ME that day, I do a full preflight.
 
I like the 'through flight' idea

Generally I check the oil, gas, quick walkaround and go for a 'through flight'. I still do a standard run up, though.
 
On shorts stops I usually just do a quick walk around and go.
If I get fuel and I'm ready to go right after that then I don't sump the fuel, all the crap doesn't have a chance sink to the bottom on the tank. If the plan sat on the ramp after refueling for 20min or so then I sump the fuel. If I did refuel I do a run-up, otherwise I don't bother with that either.
 
Those that are saying they'll do a "quick walk around", which items do you specifically drop from your abbreviated pre-flight?

Example: If a cotter pin holding a control surface nut to a pushrod was worth checking on the first leg, what makes it impossible for it to have fallen off prior to the second leg?
 
denverpilot said:
Those that are saying they'll do a "quick walk around", which items do you specifically drop from your abbreviated pre-flight?

Example: If a cotter pin holding a control surface nut to a pushrod was worth checking on the first leg, what makes it impossible for it to have fallen off prior to the second leg?
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If a cotter pin is about to fall out - then I'd have noticed that on the first preflight. It's a deteriorating condition that causes that.

It really depends on the aircraft and how long it's been since I've last been in it. On the FlyBaby I *ALWAYS* examine the flying wires and their associated mounts and pins. It takes 10 seconds of effort and no tools to remove one of my flying wires that would result in my death after takeoff.

My biggies to check on a typical 172 or Piper that I know very well and just flew 10 minutes ago:
1.) Most important -- look around the entire aircraft. The leading edges, wing tips, trailing edges, and same for the tail and fuselage. If a line guy smashed his fuel truck into your airplane you need to know before you leave. They do this a lot. The more I fly the more important this has become to me.

2.) Oil and fuel
 
denverpilot said:
Those that are saying they'll do a "quick walk around", which items do you specifically drop from your abbreviated pre-flight?

Example: If a cotter pin holding a control surface nut to a pushrod was worth checking on the first leg, what makes it impossible for it to have fallen off prior to the second leg?
Click to expand...

I know that everything works because I just flew the plane, so I inspect it for damage that could have happened on the ground. I do a visual inspection of the airframe (like Jesse said to make sure that no one hit it with a truck) and I make sure the tires are inflated.


I check the oil if it was at the minimum line before my first take off.
 
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MachFly said:
I check the oil if it was at the minimum line before my first take off.
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Nothing could have happened to increase consumption on the first leg? :)

I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here.

I've sped up pre-flights, I'm just less convinced its worth it the older I get.
 
denverpilot said:
Nothing could have happened to increase consumption on the first leg? :)

I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here.

I've sped up pre-flights, I'm just less convinced its worth it the older I get.
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No nothing. But if I took off with the oil at minimum and the engine consumes some oil then at the next stop I'd probably be bellow minimum. On any other airplane I'd just add oil before the first flight but Diamond says that I should not be adding oil unless it's already bellow minimum (I have yet to figure out why) so I just carry some oil with me and if I'm expecting to be low I check it on every stop.


Normally I don't check the oil levels because my oil filler cap (with the dip stick) is located right between the cylinders and it is usually the same temperature as the cylinders. Also the door into the cowling is on the side of the cowling and the oil filler cap unscrews directly up, the dip stick is not flexible. So I need to take it out of the engine without the ability of tacking out of the cowling and only then I maneuver it around the inside of the cowling to get it outside. In order to check the gearbox oil I need a flashlight. Don't forget two engines so I have do to this twice.
It's really a pain in the @$$.
 
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I've always wondered about this question myself. I went on an XC this past Saturday, stopped at the FBO for a fill up. When he finished I did a quick check, sumped the tanks but I paid special attention to something that got my attention on the thorough pre-flight I did before leaving the ramp at my home airport( a frayed wire connecting the static wicks in the rudder section). Turns out the wire had completely frayed during the flight and was not connected- not a big deal as I had the owner of the place I rent from inspect wire to make sure the plane was flyable before taking off in the first place. This was an eye opener and I now believe I'll make a complete pre-flight every time I fly.
 
Check the oil, clean the windshield, and make sure that the fuel truck didn't run into the plane or put water in the tank.
 
First flight I do a stand off view about 20' off looking for odd shapes, dents, leaning wrong, flat tires, tie downs. Same thing at any stop. First flight is a full preflight. Any stops in between, quick walk around, check fuel, oil, tie downs, chocks...
I'm usually 20 to 25 minutes on the full preflight. On the other stops, about 5. I still touch stuff and wiggle stuff but I don't expect to find anything odd.
I once flew through a snowbank on landing. The post flight inspection didn't show anything but the preflight 3 hours later did. The front wheelpant was broken.
Nothing wrong with a full preflight each and every. Nothing wrong with a quick walkaround. Or something in between.
 
After the initial preflight, I never get in without at least looking at the dipstick and checking the fuel tanks to make sure they're where I think they should be. Sump any tanks that have had fuel added, and a visual check for any damage if it has been out of my sight even for a few minutes.
 
dell30rb said:
Generally I check the oil, gas, quick walkaround and go for a 'through flight'. I still do a standard run up, though.
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This.

Oil, to make sure I didn't lost any. Gas to make sure it wasn't misfueled (even if I didn't ask for fuel doesn't mean someone didn't accidentally fuel it), and a walkaround to make sure nothing got damaged.

To me, it's a cost analysis. What does a few minutes cost, vs. the consequences of missing a critical item.
 
Seems like most everybody has about the same inspection:
Visual Inspection for anything out of the ordinary
Oil
Fuel
-Items specific to A/C that need to be checked-
Run Up

How long on the ground before you would decide a Full Pre Flight is in order? More then an hour, when the engine has cooled to ambient?
 
My rule of thumb is that if I turn my back on the airplane for any period of time, I do a check before I leave. This also doubles as a post-flight check, although if anything needs attention right after you land, it might be better to find it right away.
If it seems silly after, say, a bathroom stop, ask yourself how long would it take for:
Some dumbass to manhandle a control surface, antenna or probe, or bump something into the airplane... or blast it with prop wash, possibly getting debris in critical areas

A bug to take up residence inside the pitot probe, or a bird to see about building a nest inside the cowl

Some jerk to drain a gallon or two of fuel out of the airplane

Etc, etc.
 
I like an indepth per flight and then a walk around with an oil check after short layovers.if plane has been out of sight for any length of time I do another preflight.the little time it takes is worth it after all its all supposed to be fun.
 
Depends how long was the stop.

I do a very thorough pre-flight before launching. At a short stop, visual inspection, wiggle all control surfaces, check and drain fuel. More like "I want to make sure my wing is still there, nothing was bumped into it and things move the way they should"

At longer stops, full pre-flight.
 
Meanee said:
Depends how long was the stop.
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And where the stop was at.

If I'm dropping into a relatively busy FBO, I'm going to pay more attention because there are a lot more people around that could have inadvertently done something to my plane. If I'm dropping in at the local ag strip and go in the house to BS with one of the pilots for a while before departing, it's another story entirely.
 
Maybe the question should be, "What items from a 'long pre-flight' do you omit in a 'short pre-flight', and how do you justify it to yourself?"
 
If I'm stopping just to pick up or drop off passengers, perhaps run inside for the restroom, I don't check anything, but of course I do a run up. If I park the plane and go inside (such as to the restaurant) and I can see the plane, I do a quick walk around and check the flight controls. If I park and leave the area I'll do a full preflight.

It is really up to the PIC. I say, if you think you're going to be distracted during the next leg of your flight by wondering if you should have checked this or that, then it is best to just take a few minutes and do a complete preflight for your own peace of mind. Departing 10 minutes later than planned because of doing a preflight is better than departing on time and feeling unsure about the aircraft's airworthiness.
 
What I'm getting at here is one man's "full pre-flight" is another man's "quick walk around".
 
denverpilot said:
Maybe the question should be, "What items from a 'long pre-flight' do you omit in a 'short pre-flight', and how do you justify it to yourself?"
Click to expand...

I justify it by being efficient, no point of checking something that you know that works.



This is what I omit:
The whole cockpit checklist (making sure the fire extinguisher is there and that kind of stuff).
Antennas.
Pitot tube/static ports.
Pitot heat/stall heat.
Trim tabs.
Thorough inspection of control surfaces (connections and free-play)
Static Dischargers.
Gear.
Lights.
Props & Spinners.
Intakes.
Exhausts.
Oil (sometimes)
Fuel (someitmes)
Maybe a few more things, don't have the checklist in front of me.
 
MachFly said:
This is what I omit:
The whole cockpit checklist (making sure the fire extinguisher is there and that kind of stuff).
Antennas.
Pitot tube/static ports.
Pitot heat/stall heat.
Trim tabs.
Thorough inspection of control surfaces (connections and free-play)
Static Dischargers.
Gear.
Lights.
Props & Spinners.
Intakes.
Exhausts.
Oil (sometimes)
Fuel (someitmes)
Maybe a few more things, don't have the checklist in front of me.
Click to expand...

Interesting. Don't take these personally, just continuing my Devil's Advocacy here...

Cockpit: Not going to put the fuel selector back on Both in a Cessna? Or just trusting the two other callouts for it on the checklist?

Pitot/static: no bugs where you landed? It only takes minutes.

Trim Tabs/Control Surfaces: Don't even touch them or move them? Not even a wiggle?

Static wicks: Can live with this one unless you're departing IMC into precip. Better look at 'em then.

Gear: Really? No look at the nose strut for new leaks, no checking for brake line leaks hiding under wheel pants? No look at the tires for proper inflation or wear? Can't all those things have broken on the last landing?

Props: Don't run your hand along it seeing if you picked up a rock ding?

Intake/Exhaust: don't even tap it with a pen or the fuel strainer listening for a different sound indicating a huge crack somewhere? (Like ringing a bell)

Oil: It's hot. I know. I've given up on this one before. A rag helps.

Fuel: This one surprises me. Huge accident rate here.

Just asking... trying to understand the thought process. It affects us all.
 
denverpilot said:
Interesting. Don't take these personally, just continuing my Devil's Advocacy here...

Cockpit: Not going to put the fuel selector back on Both in a Cessna? Or just trusting the two other callouts for it on the checklist?
In Cessna's case I probably would. This is for a DA42 and when I shut down I leave the fuel selectors left main tank to left engine and right main tank to right engine. After I start up I check to make sure that cross feed works and then turn it back.

Pitot/static: no bugs where you landed? It only takes minutes.
Haven't really thought about this one...
It doesn't really that long to check so maybe I should. Although if your whole windshield is not completely covered in bugs the odds that one got in the pitot tube between the time when you landed and taxied back is rather low.

Trim Tabs/Control Surfaces: Don't even touch them or move them? Not even a wiggle?
I always check to make sure their free and correct from the cockpit (twice actually, once on the ramp and once before take off) but I don't normally check them by hand if I just flew the plane.

Static wicks: Can live with this one unless you're departing IMC into precip. Better look at 'em then.

Gear: Really? No look at the nose strut for new leaks, no checking for brake line leaks hiding under wheel pants? No look at the tires for proper inflation or wear? Can't all those things have broken on the last landing?
I check to make sure the tire is inflated so I look in that general direction and I will notice a puddle if it's there but I do not thoroughly inspect the hydraulic lines and sensors unless I just had a hard landing.

Props: Don't run your hand along it seeing if you picked up a rock ding?
I don't, perhaps I should though.

Intake/Exhaust: don't even tap it with a pen or the fuel strainer listening for a different sound indicating a huge crack somewhere? (Like ringing a bell)
Only on the first flight. Say if something did crack in the exhaust what's the worst that can happen? I expect to have a slight (probably insignificant) power loss because the airflow in the exhaust wont be smooth. My heater does not go around the exhaust so there is no danger of it going into the cockpit.
I usually don't check the intake either, I doubt a bird will have time to make a nest next to my hot engine in the 10 minutes that I've been on the ground.

Oil: It's hot. I know. I've given up on this one before. A rag helps.

Fuel: This one surprises me. Huge accident rate here.
If I haven't refueled then there is no point, nothing changed.
If I do refuel then I visually inspect the fuel quantity in the tanks. If I want to strain the tanks then I wait 10-15min for all the crap to settle on the bottom on the tank, no point of straining it right after he finished putting the fuel in.
Because I take Jet A in an aircraft that looks like it's supposed to take 100LL I always make sure that I'm present when their refueling it.

Just asking... trying to understand the thought process. It affects us all.
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______
 
I'm an old senile guy. IMHO, the definition of a preflight is an inspection before the plane flies. I do a complete preflight before every flight. It only takes a little more time than a cursory look over and who knows, it might save my life.
 
Just some follow up.

Bug question was about bugs building things. Mud daubers can fill a pitot tube in about 5 minutes. It's amazing. Certain spiders too. There's some photos and stories of folks who DID look and found amazing bug construction projects on pitot tubes and in the cowling in very short periods of time.

Fuel is about seeing if your expected fuel burn matches reality.

Having landed and found just under 30 minutes left of fuel on a leg where an hour left over was expected, and then figuring out later that the airplane was flown lower (thus inadvertently at a higher power setting that flight-planned for) for a couple of hours, it will give you a sinking feeling in your stomach when the stick doesn't match the expected burn. I will admit for my Cessna if I didn't bring the step stool it's a PITA, but I'll go find the fuel truck and borrow the ladder. I don't care how many funny looks I get from linemen.

Too damn many "why did they run out of gas?" accidents in the NTSB reports. Way too many.
 
denverpilot said:
Just some follow up.

Bug question was about bugs building things. Mud daubers can fill a pitot tube in about 5 minutes. It's amazing. Certain spiders too. There's some photos and stories of folks who DID look and found amazing bug construction projects on pitot tubes and in the cowling in very short periods of time.
In this case I'm not going to randomly hit a spider while flying, it's typically too high for them. If I do hit one than the odds of me hitting it with a different part of the airframe is a lot higher.
Plus I don't really fly a lot in a bug infested areas. Southwest is either too cold or too warm to bugs, we do have them just way not as many as you'd find in the midwest.

Fuel is about seeing if your expected fuel burn matches reality.

Having landed and found just under 30 minutes left of fuel on a leg where an hour left over was expected, and then figuring out later that the airplane was flown lower (thus inadvertently at a higher power setting that flight-planned for) for a couple of hours, it will give you a sinking feeling in your stomach when the stick doesn't match the expected burn. I will admit for my Cessna if I didn't bring the step stool it's a PITA, but I'll go find the fuel truck and borrow the ladder. I don't care how many funny looks I get from linemen.
I'm sure you know this but I'll say it anyways that if you fly the same airplane long enough you become familiar with it's fuel burn and different power settings and accuracy of the fuel gauges.

I have fuel flow gauges (to the nearest tenth) to make sure I'm burning exactly what planned plus Diamond's typically have very accurate fuel level gauges. Instead of just having a float in the tank to measure fuel level I got a strip of sensors that go though the whole tank therefore giving me an accurate flow level indication.
On Diamond's it's difficult to manually measure fuel. My main tank is composed of 3 smaller tanks, so when I open the fuel filler cap I can only see how much fuel is in the otter tank therefore this only tells me that my tanks are full or not. If I have 17gal left in a tank (25gal tank) by opening the fuel filler cap I will not see any fuel at all. What I can do is connect a fuel level tested (see pic bellow) to the fuel strainer and then attach it to the front of the wing. The problem with this is that it only works on a level ramp.

So in reality on a Diamond the fuel gauges are the most accurate way of measuring the fuel. I'm sure if I was flying a different airplane I'd always manually check the fuel level.

Too damn many "why did they run out of gas?" accidents in the NTSB reports. Way too many.
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mechanicalfueltester_edited-1.jpg
 
No no, the bugs crawl up onto the aircraft after you've arrived, or the wasps decide the pitot looks like a good place to build a nest. ;)

I hear ya on the fuel gauges... nothing like that installed on my particular spam-can. ;)

Just thoughts... Nothing more. I'm kinda with Jack... it just doesn't take that long to look at stuff. But I won't say I've never gotten lazy about it.
 
denverpilot said:
No no, the bugs crawl up onto the aircraft after you've arrived, or the wasps decide the pitot looks like a good place to build a nest. ;)
Click to expand...

After this conversation I'm starting to think that I should be checking it.
 
MDeitch1976 said:
Is it recommended to have an abbreviated Preflight when making a stop for fuel, food, stretching your legs, etc?

Months ago, I had gone on a dual XC with one of my instructors to a class D airspace. We stopped in the FBO, he showed me around, and the FBO allowed us to go into the hangar and check out a couple of the planes sitting back there. We were there for about 30 minutes.

When we departed, we did not do walk around the plane. We checked the fuel, flight surface check,started up, taxied to the RWY hold, did our run up, and then departed. I was under the impression that a preflight is a preflight(before any flight). Am I wrong here?
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I can do a very thorough inspection pretty quickly visually in the course of getting out and in; but I verify oil in the fueling process.
 
I will typically check the fuel (level and sump), tires, control surfaces, oil and engine compartment. I do a full run-up regardless of how short or long a stop. If the flight will lead into dusk, a check of all lighting is also done. Nothing worse than flipping on the landing light to find it now out.
 
There is a lot of variability depending on the airplane, the circumstances, and the resources.

On the airplane I fly most often: pitot tube (got a ladder? it's 8+feet up, and to tell the truth I don't think airspeed indication loss is the end of the world.), static wicks: none (yes, it's IFR), static ports: none. I can tell at a glance if there is a gear or tire problem. The fuel caps are painted so I can see if they line up (4) if not I need to do some climbing. I know the airplane well enough that there would be very little chance of my missing a sudden oil leak, so I don't check oil. The glass sight gauges mean little likelihood of taking off with less than 30 gallons or so. The prop leading edges make it easy to spot a problem and I usually look at them post flight when I set it to be horizontal. I don't wind it up again unless the airplane has been sitting for several hours.

On the other hand, it is very subject to curious onlookers, so I always walk around looking for damage if it has been out of my sight for any length of time. Make sure nothing was take out of the cockpit, and switches are where I left them.

If I were going to take off into IMC or for a flight where airports were more than an hour apart, I would be more thorough.
 
jpower said:
I do a very thorough preflight at the beginning of the day, and then I usually take a quick look over the airplane, including checking the important trouble spots (stabilator wiggleroom and muffler springs on the plane I fly, for example). I naturally check the fuel as well. You didn't mention the oil, but I think that's important to check, and I do.

Though I do believe it's personal preference. When I stop, I'm usually grabbing food at the airport restaurant, and I can see the plane the whole time. If I were to go somewhere where I didn't see the airplane for an extended period of time, I would definitely be more thorough.
Click to expand...

+1...:thumbsup:
 
denverpilot said:
Just some follow up.

Bug question was about bugs building things. Mud daubers can fill a pitot tube in about 5 minutes. It's amazing. Certain spiders too. There's some photos and stories of folks who DID look and found amazing bug construction projects on pitot tubes and in the cowling in very short periods of time.

Fuel is about seeing if your expected fuel burn matches reality.
Click to expand...

Beat me to it, and sometimes they really get to be a nuisance. I've gotten the tail up and still had a dead airspeed more than once on short turnarounds, half an hour or so. With a full load I just go.
 
ebetancourt said:
There is a lot of variability depending on the airplane, the circumstances, and the resources.

On the airplane I fly most often: pitot tube (got a ladder? it's 8+feet up, and to tell the truth I don't think airspeed indication loss is the end of the world.), static wicks: none (yes, it's IFR), static ports: none. I can tell at a glance if there is a gear or tire problem. The fuel caps are painted so I can see if they line up (4) if not I need to do some climbing. I know the airplane well enough that there would be very little chance of my missing a sudden oil leak, so I don't check oil. The glass sight gauges mean little likelihood of taking off with less than 30 gallons or so. The prop leading edges make it easy to spot a problem and I usually look at them post flight when I set it to be horizontal. I don't wind it up again unless the airplane has been sitting for several hours.

On the other hand, it is very subject to curious onlookers, so I always walk around looking for damage if it has been out of my sight for any length of time. Make sure nothing was take out of the cockpit, and switches are where I left them.

If I were going to take off into IMC or for a flight where airports were more than an hour apart, I would be more thorough.
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+ another.
 
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